wisconsin taking on gov unions.

#26
#26
Another option would be to change the law so that the teacher's unions themselves become private companies that would have to then bid to get the business.

I seriously like the way you think. I hate the term "out of the box" because it's over done but you fit that term very well on alot of ideas.

So you want to view schools like businesses and then each group of teachers would bid to work for that school? I like it.

It'll never happen but I like it.

:good!:
 
#27
#27
I normally try to be very civil here and very respectful of others' views. But I will take a stand here. Unions have problems. I get it. I know that 99% of the posters here are strict corporatists, and I will get flamed. Oh well, that's life. Some things are worth standing up for.

Having said that, if you think that corporations can't trample a person's freedom and liberties as much as if not moreso than a government (which one can vote out of office, I might add) one of two things are going on: 1. You don't know the history of the Industrial Revolution or 2. You are smoking crack. Pullman Towns, paying in company script, etc are not fairy tales conjured up by union bosses to scare people. Read The Story of American Freedom by Eric Foner if you want to read about the many struggles for American freedom.

I read an article today that stated that middle class incomes over the last 40 years have went from $33,000/yr to $30,000/yr (adjusted for inflation). All the while, the wages of the top earners increased 25-30%. I am not a believer in wealth redistribution. I do believe that a healthy vibrant middle class is the litmus test for the nation. Not much vibrancy or healthiness in the middle class these days. An oligarchy is as undesirable as an absolute despot. As the superhero says, 'Flame on!"
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I think anyone understands the good unions did in the infancy of the Indistrial Revolution. The 40 hr work week, OSHA, fair wages, ect all were a result of organizing workforces. The problem is the modern unions take a very inflexible and adversarial stance to management, making companies less nimble and competitive to their foriegn counterparts. I have worked in a union shop (IBEW) and the only things I saw them do is protect people's jobs that were virtually unemployable and take my dues and give it to the Democrat party.
 
#28
#28
I seriously like the way you think. I hate the term "out of the box" because it's over done but you fit that term very well on alot of ideas.

So you want to view schools like businesses and then each group of teachers would bid to work for that school? I like it.

It'll never happen but I like it.

:good!:

Wouldn't have to be different teachers. Just different unions.
 
#29
#29
I normally try to be very civil here and very respectful of others' views. But I will take a stand here. Unions have problems. I get it. I know that 99% of the posters here are strict corporatists, and I will get flamed. Oh well, that's life. Some things are worth standing up for.

Having said that, if you think that corporations can't trample a person's freedom and liberties as much as if not moreso than a government (which one can vote out of office, I might add) one of two things are going on: 1. You don't know the history of the Industrial Revolution or 2. You are smoking crack. Pullman Towns, paying in company script, etc are not fairy tales conjured up by union bosses to scare people. Read The Story of American Freedom by Eric Foner if you want to read about the many struggles for American freedom.

I read an article today that stated that middle class incomes over the last 40 years have went from $33,000/yr to $30,000/yr (adjusted for inflation). All the while, the wages of the top earners increased 25-30%. I am not a believer in wealth redistribution. I do believe that a healthy vibrant middle class is the litmus test for the nation. Not much vibrancy or healthiness in the middle class these days. An oligarchy is as undesirable as an absolute despot. As the superhero says, 'Flame on!"
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I'll just add to Distro's answer. The problem with public sector unions is that they exert considerable election power and then extract concessions from the elected officials they support. The government (local, state or federal) hardly has a recent history of abusing employees or severely underpaying public employees.

Private unions had a time and place but government regulation has usurped their function (see OSHA, EEOC, DoJ, etc.). I've yet to hear a compelling argument about the value of public sector unions. Can you provide one?

I'll add too that I've worked in union shops both as a union member and as a contractor and was continually amazed at the inefficiency unions brought to the work place in the interest of protecting jobs.
 
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#30
#30
I'll just add to Distro's answer. The problem with public sector unions is that they exert considerable election power and then extract concessions from the elected officials they support. The government (local, state or federal) hardly has a recent history of abusing employees or severely underpaying public employees.

Private unions had a time and place but government regulation has usurped their function (see OSHA, EEOC, DoJ, etc.). I've yet to hear a compelling argument about the value of public sector unions. Can you provide one?

I'll add too that I've worked in union shops both as a union member and as a contractor and was continually amazed at the inefficiency unions brought to the work place in the interest of protecting jobs.

I don't buy the pressure argument. The Citizen's United Decision created the same situation that you are arguing against for the corporate world. I would like to see both union, private, and corporate political donations outlawed. It is legalized bribery. I also don't buy the 'because I don't think government worker's are mistreated; therefore, they should be allowed to have a union' argument. Do government salaries have an impact on taxpayers? Certainly. So does private sector wages through the prices of goods and services many of which are necessities. (I put that last one in because I anticipated a rebuttal of we are forced to pay taxes, we can choose not to buy something in the private sector.)

What is wrong with an organization protecting jobs? If I have read correctly, you are a professor. What if your department wanted to cut your large salary just so they could hire someone cheaper? I would say that you would appreciate someone helping you keep your job.

Labor Unions still have a purpose. In the Industrial Revolution, wages were constrained by 'old' and 'new' immigrants from Europe. Unions fought for better wages then. Just one example from today: wages are held low by immigrants from Central and South America. The government is obviously not going to do anything about it. Dems see a new wave of voters. Repubs see cheap labor. Someone needs to do something. Wage stagnation is killing the middle class.

I see the need for reform and streamlining today's unions, but the government doesn't have protections for workers in place for all situations. Not trying to be a smart alec, but I was under the impression that most conservatives thought government intervention was bad, and you use the argument that government is doing what unions do. Unions allow people with little or no influence to band together to have influence. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, I see it as very American. The employer/employee relationship need not be adversarial. They should work for a mutual goal. When one succeeds both sides should benefit.

Being an educator, have you read Eric Foner's book? It's not a novelistic page turner, but it is very insightful and thought provoking. He asks the question, 'What is freedom?' many times. The answer differs from person to person. Read his book if you have not. It's worth it.:peace2:
 
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#31
#31
Labor Unions still have a purpose. In the Industrial Revolution, wages were constrained by 'old' and 'new' immigrants from Europe. Unions fought for better wages then. Just one example from today: wages are held low by immigrants from Central and South America. The government is obviously not going to do anything about it. Dems see a new wave of voters. Repubs see cheap labor. Someone needs to do something. Wage stagnation is killing the middle class.

so the answer is to pay someone far more than they deserve and to keep them in this noncompetitive job? wage stagnation is only killing those without marketable skills.
 
#32
#32
Nobody is forcing anyone to work at a place with crappy wages, hours, benefits, or working conditions. If people simply refuse work at these places, the business will either have to offer their workers better treatment or close.
 
#33
#33
I don't buy the pressure argument. The Citizen's United Decision created the same situation that you are arguing against for the corporate world. I would like to see both union, private, and corporate political donations outlawed. It is legalized bribery. I also don't buy the 'because I don't think government worker's are mistreated; therefore, they should be allowed to have a union' argument. Do government salaries have an impact on taxpayers? Certainly. So does private sector wages through the prices of goods and services many of which are necessities. (I put that last one in because I anticipated a rebuttal of we are forced to pay taxes, we can choose not to buy something in the private sector.)

It's not the same situation. Public sector unions have much more down side than upside in my opinion. The pension/HC packages that have been negotiated are destroying municipal and state budgets.

What is wrong with an organization protecting jobs? If I have read correctly, you are a professor. What if your department wanted to cut your large salary just so they could hire someone cheaper? I would say that you would appreciate someone helping you keep your job.

Protecting jobs is a problem when you: 1) build in inefficiencies (e.g. prevent cross training), 2) protect individual workers who are doing a poor job. I worked at ORNL. When a department ordered a new computer members from one union delivered the box, members from another union unpacked the box and members from a third union attached the keyboard and perphirerals and turned it on. As an employee, I would wait almost a week for a computer that was in a box to be usable. That year, the unions went on strike because of efforts to introduce cross training - they didn't want the same guy that delivered the box to be allowed to do the other tasks since it might mean less people are needed. Does that make sense?

With regard to the university, I think the tenure system should go. We hold onto a ton of deadweight because they cannot be fired. It doesn't encourage or motivate workers. I recognize that the organization has to compete and survive. Keeping me at my "high salary" while the organization suffers simply doesn't make sense to me.

Labor Unions still have a purpose. In the Industrial Revolution, wages were constrained by 'old' and 'new' immigrants from Europe. Unions fought for better wages then. Just one example from today: wages are held low by immigrants from Central and South America. The government is obviously not going to do anything about it. Dems see a new wave of voters. Repubs see cheap labor. Someone needs to do something. Wage stagnation is killing the middle class.

I see the need for reform and streamlining today's unions, but the government doesn't have protections for workers in place for all situations. Not trying to be a smart alec, but I was under the impression that most conservatives thought government intervention was bad, and you use the argument that government is doing what unions do.

not sure what you are saying in the last sentence

Unions allow people with little or no influence to band together to have influence. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, I see it as very American. The employer/employee relationship need not be adversarial. They should work for a mutual goal. When one succeeds both sides should benefit.

Do you believe that is really the way unions work? Look at the Wisconsin case (forget the part about not being able to collective bargain). Clearly asking employees to contribute something to their HC or pensions isn't too much to ask - most jobs have this requirement. However, the union is going ape-shiz over this. Damn the fiscal situation, give me my free HC. Is that mutually beneficial? How about going to the wall to keep a slacker teacher or employee from being fired? Is that in the mutual best interests of all invovled?

Being an educator, have you read Eric Foner's book? It's not a novelistic page turner, but it is very insightful and thought provoking. He asks the question, 'What is freedom?' many times. The answer differs from person to person. Read his book if you have not. It's worth it.:peace2:

It's interesting that the private sector has very little in the way of unions and the public sector has a sizable percentage. Not surprising then that public sector salaries and benefits are considerably higher than that for the private sector. Lifetime jobs, protection for slackers, free pensions and HC -sounds great until it can no longer be paid for.
 
#34
#34
Nobody is forcing anyone to work at a place with crappy wages, hours, benefits, or working conditions. If people simply refuse work at these places, the business will either have to offer their workers better treatment or close.

Not in today's economy.
 
#35
#35
It's interesting that the private sector has very little in the way of unions and the public sector has a sizable percentage. Not surprising then that public sector salaries and benefits are considerably higher than that for the private sector. Lifetime jobs, protection for slackers, free pensions and HC -sounds great until it can no longer be paid for.

You make some good points. I should emphasize that my main beef is with the elimination of collective bargaining. Tenure doesn't make it impossible to fire someone. It just makes the school/institution have a reason. If tenure is viewed as a 'you can't fire me for any reason', it is as much the fault of management as labor. I do agree with extending the employment time before tenure is granted.

As to pensions. You point out that the packages have been negotiated meaning both parties agreed. Fault in this case is mutual. People are going to try to get as much as possible. Pensions have been dipped into to balance state budgets nationwide. This is causing current pension funding issues. Are their some asinine pensions out there? YES. A pension should not be the same wage that one made while working or more as in some cases. It should be a supplement. I go back to my statement, BOTH parties agreed to the terms, and now one side wants to change horses mid race.

As to inefficiencies, I agree and stated such that unions should be streamlined and reformed.

I was speaking to the point you made about the government taking union responsibilities such as safety, etc.

Your point about keeping slackers in a job is a point in which we agree wholeheartedly. With my experience with unions, this is by far (to borrow the catch phrase of another poster)the 800lb gorilla staring in the window from our back yard (or something like that). It is the single most point of contention with the anti-union folks. Unions SHOULD NOT stand up for incompetents/slackers. Do your job and do it well or find something else to do.

I don't think that what I stated in my earlier post that is the way I think unions work. I was saying that's the way they SHOULD work. When labor and management work together, they can't be stopped. It doesn't have to be a purely adversarial position. Unions need reforms. I freely admit this.:salute:
 
#37
#37
I do think it is funny seeing the dems run. at least republicans will stay for the debate.

the more i see how liberals and conservatives act, it's obvious that liberals are the party of children.

how many nazis posters did those protestors make? i saw that video and it was amazing. i saw crosshairs on the gov. lets compare tea party protestors to the unions. it's obvious who the brats are.
 
#40
#40
Nobody is forcing anyone to work at a place with crappy wages, hours, benefits, or working conditions. If people simply refuse work at these places, the business will either have to offer their workers better treatment or close.

Because a welfare system exist. Nix the welfare system and these minimum wage jobs suddenly become popular.
 
#41
#41
You make some good points. I should emphasize that my main beef is with the elimination of collective bargaining. Tenure doesn't make it impossible to fire someone. It just makes the school/institution have a reason. If tenure is viewed as a 'you can't fire me for any reason', it is as much the fault of management as labor. I do agree with extending the employment time before tenure is granted.

As to pensions. You point out that the packages have been negotiated meaning both parties agreed. Fault in this case is mutual. People are going to try to get as much as possible. Pensions have been dipped into to balance state budgets nationwide. This is causing current pension funding issues. Are their some asinine pensions out there? YES. A pension should not be the same wage that one made while working or more as in some cases. It should be a supplement. I go back to my statement, BOTH parties agreed to the terms, and now one side wants to change horses mid race.

As to inefficiencies, I agree and stated such that unions should be streamlined and reformed.

I was speaking to the point you made about the government taking union responsibilities such as safety, etc.

Your point about keeping slackers in a job is a point in which we agree wholeheartedly. With my experience with unions, this is by far (to borrow the catch phrase of another poster)the 800lb gorilla staring in the window from our back yard (or something like that). It is the single most point of contention with the anti-union folks. Unions SHOULD NOT stand up for incompetents/slackers. Do your job and do it well or find something else to do.

I don't think that what I stated in my earlier post that is the way I think unions work. I was saying that's the way they SHOULD work. When labor and management work together, they can't be stopped. It doesn't have to be a purely adversarial position. Unions need reforms. I freely admit this.:salute:

Yes the benefits were negotiated poorly and both sides share the blame. The fundamental problem of the public sector union is that the union can basically fire the management. That is not the case in the private sector. The owners hold that right. If management negotiates a bad deal then the owners can oust the management.

This leads to the next point - the governments have to be a going concern. If labor and management strike an unsustainable bargain and the company folds well so be it. In the case of a municipality it must live on -- the stakes are considerably higher.

Which leads to the last point. There is no natural incentive for government to bargain hard with public unions since there is no equivalent owner mechanism to ensure a focus on long term viability. The reward structure for one party is built around giving in to the other party. It is a recipe for what we see now - ever increasing give aways to a powerful constituency that exerts its resources directly to replace one benevolent government with another. There is no 3rd party of significance to evaluate the deals with an eye towards long term viability of the entire entity.
 
#42
#42
There is no natural incentive for government to bargain hard with public unions since there is no equivalent owner mechanism to ensure a focus on long term viability. The reward structure for one party is built around giving in to the other party.

not only is there no incentive, there is a huge disincentive. bargin hard and not only do you not get the valuable union money for your next election, but then they target you for the next election, get their members to vote against you and fund your opponent. arnold tried to do it in california and it nearly cost him reelection. by the end he was basically in their pockets.
 
#46
#46
this award is from the perspective of the unions. i want an example of a company who is thriving because of their union workforce. you did say it was MUTUALLY beneficial right?

No, it's not.

Selection
The nominees are evaluated and the award winner selected by: A six (6) person panel composed of the Labor Co-Chair and the Management Co-Chair of the Center's Advisory Board; a labor representative; a management representative; a representative from economic development; and a neutral.


haters gonna hate......
 
#47
#47
once again. where in the reward does it state that the union membership has helped the company? all i see are benefits to teh employees.
 
#48
#48
In theory, unions are perfectly acceptable means of individuals with no money or power to associate with another one so that they have power in negotiating with the employer.

If a union's leadership becomes greedy and starts to act in its own best interests instead of the interests of the members, then that in my opinion is a problem for the union to deal with.

If your complaint is that the union makes it too difficult for the employer to fire an ineffective employee, for example too hard to fire a lazy teacher, then that is the fault of the employer for doing a poor job of negotiating the contract. I don't see why you'd be surprised that the union tries to negotiate a contract that gives them greater job security.

Honestly, why would you think that the public employee unions are wrong for fighting a change in the retirement structure that hurts their membership? I mean, that's what the union is there to do -- collectively bargain for the best terms it can get.

So strike a better deal in the next contract. Why people think that the teachers are wrong for speaking up that they don't want to pay is beyond me. The criticism should be of the government for striking a bad deal, not the teachers for trying to preserve it.
 
#49
#49
the problem LG is that the unions are buying off the elected officials and strongarming any politicians who want restraint..
 
#50
#50
how about the teachers go back to doing their jobs and stop these idiotic "days of rage"?
 

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