WWII buffs

[gsvol]

* FDR met with CBS newsman Edward R. Murrow at midnight. Murrow, who had seen many statesmen in crises, was surprised at FDR's calm reaction. After chatting about London, they reviewed the latest news from PH and then FDR tested Murrow's news instincts with these 2 bizarre giveaway questions: "Did this surprise you?" Murrow said yes. FDR: "Maybe you think it didn't surprise us?" FDR gave the impression that the attack itself was not unwelcome. This is the same high-strung FDR that got polio when convicted of perjury; the same FDR that was bedridden for a month when he learned Russia was to be attacked; the same FDR who couldn't eat or drink when he got the Japanese order to sail.

If Roosevelt and Marshall were motivated by nobility, why did they not send a last-minute warning to Hawaii, so our men could have at least been at their guns when the Japanese arrived? If noble, why did Washington continue using Kimmel and Short as scapegoats even after the war was long won? And if it was necessary to provoke the Axis powers to war to stop aggression and brutality, why was it never necessary to provoke Stalin — an equally brutal and aggressive dictator?

* FDR reminisced with Stalin at Tehran on November 30, 1943, saying "if the Japanese had not attacked the US he doubted very much if it would have been possible to send any American forces to Europe." Compare this statement with what FDR said at the Atlantic Conference 4 months before Pearl: "Everything was to be done to force an 'incident' to justify hostilities." Given that a Japanese attack was the only possible incident, then FDR had said he would do it.

ROOSEVELT WAS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FOLLOWING:

Deaths: 2403;

Wounded 1,178.

Eighteen ships sunk or seriously damaged including 5 battleships

188 planes destroyed and 162 damaged.

When MacArthur learned of FDR's death, he said: "Well, the old man has gone, a man who never told the truth when a lie would suffice."

 

[7thgroupvolfan]

WWII and the Civil War are my favorite wars in history.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Wow gs, way to kill a really good thread!

 

[duckman398686]

thats alot of text

 

[OrangeEmpire]

thats alot of text

Thread killer!

 

[gsvol]

i have the band of brothers on blue ray, i've watched it about 4 or 5 times. it's such a great series. hard to believe it was directed and produced by a bunch of communist loving liberals.

The picture above is of the Camp O'Donnell Memorial Monument. The memorial was built by the organization known as "The Battling Bastards of Bataan" to honor those American men who died at Camp O'Donnell, while prisoners of the Japanese.

The monument is located in the Capas National Shrine, in Capas, Tarlac, Philippines,adjacent to the memorial for the Philippine Army dead. Camp O'Donnell was the first prison camp for the men who survived the "Death March". The picture was taken by James Litton.

The "Cross" was built as a memorial to the thousands who died in that camp. It is as much a part of Bataan as the participants in that battle. The inscription on the base of the "Cross" reads "Omnia Pro Patria": All For Country. On the wall behind the "Cross" are inscribed the names of the men who died at Camp O'Donnell.

The original "Cement Cross" is now on display in the National Prisoner of War Museum, at the Andersonville National Historic Site, Andersonville, GA. It was brought to this country by Bataan survivors.

I am a lot of things, but I am not an FDR apologist.

You kept saying FDR gave America hope.

Well then if you aren't an FDR apologist, then you were ignorant of the facts when you said we had the intel but couldn't put it together.

We had the intelligence put together, FDR wanted maximum political effect when the attack came, the slimy coward didn't even have the decency to give enough warning so that our men could man their battle stations and at least have a fighting chance.

Wow gs, way to kill a really good thread!

I wouldn't call it a good thread when urban myth is perpetuated.

If you bothered to read even a tiny bit of what I posted, and were the man you claim to be, then instead of whining, you would thank me for setting you straight.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

thats alot of text

The picture above is of the Camp O'Donnell Memorial Monument. The memorial was built by the organization known as "The Battling Bastards of Bataan" to honor those American men who died at Camp O'Donnell, while prisoners of the Japanese.

The monument is located in the Capas National Shrine, in Capas, Tarlac, Philippines,adjacent to the memorial for the Philippine Army dead. Camp O'Donnell was the first prison camp for the men who survived the "Death March". The picture was taken by James Litton.

The "Cross" was built as a memorial to the thousands who died in that camp. It is as much a part of Bataan as the participants in that battle. The inscription on the base of the "Cross" reads "Omnia Pro Patria": All For Country. On the wall behind the "Cross" are inscribed the names of the men who died at Camp O'Donnell.

The original "Cement Cross" is now on display in the National Prisoner of War Museum, at the Andersonville National Historic Site, Andersonville, GA. It was brought to this country by Bataan survivors.




You kept saying FDR gave America hope.

Well then if you aren't an FDR apologist, then you were ignorant of the facts when you said we had the intel but couldn't put it together.

We had the intelligence put together, FDR wanted maximum political effect when the attack came, the slimy coward didn't even have the decency to give enough warning so that our men could man their battle stations and at least have a fighting chance.




I wouldn't call it a good thread when urban myth is perpetuated.

If you bothered to read even a tiny bit of what I posted, and were the man you claim to be, then instead of whining, you would thank me for setting you straight.

1.) In short, cause I don't agree with you I am a fool?

Yeah........ sure....

2.) Why is it my fault you didn't know about Kursk being the largest battle the world has ever known?
:hi:

 

[gsvol]

1.) In short, cause I don't agree with you I am a fool?

Yeah........ sure....

2.) Why is it my fault you didn't know about Kursk being the largest battle the world has ever known?
:hi:

Do you just pick stuff out of thin air, where do you come up with such stuff??

1. I never said or even implied that you are a fool.

You said we couldn't put the intel together to know that the Japanese Navy was about to attack Pearl Harbor.

I called BS and said that was the credo of FDR apologists.

You said you were many things but an FDR apologist you were not.

So I said then that you were evidently ignorant of the facts.

So where do you stand now???

Do you agree that FDR and his top men in Washington knew of the eminent Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor or not??

2. I never mentioned 'Kursk' in any post in any thread on this board ever at any time.

Yes it was a huge battle, so what??

Eisenhower was wise to wait until '44 to invade Europe rather than probably suffer a disastrous defeat by landing in '42 as General George Marshall wished.

Our allies the Serbians lost more men per capita fighting the Nazis than any other nationality, their dogged determination kept large numbers of Nazi troops occupied in the Balkans all summer of '41 and thus they kept many Germans out of the battles on the eastern front until the fall and probably saved Moscow from being captured before the Siberian winter weather overcame the exposed German troops but at the end of the war we threw the Serbians to the communists.

Now that we have gotten that out of the way.

We also disagreed about the role of the Russians in the war between the states, (that you insist on calling the 'civil war', a civil war is when two opposing forces battle for control of the government, the south never wanted to control the US government, the south only wanted freedom from the US government).

You said the Russian Navy only ported in New York and San Francisco to avoid their own ice locked ports.

If that is true, then why did they stay for the whole year?? Also why did the Russian Navy participate in the blockade of Charleston, S.C.?

The Russians’ arrival suggested to on-lookers that they intended to defend the Union against interference.

A wartime alliance between the United States and Russia was negotiated by U.S. Ambassador to Russia Cassius Clay (1861-1862 and 1863-1869). This is a chapter of American history which is no longer known today by Americans: It was Russia's military weight and threats of reprisals against Britain and France, that prevented any British-led intervention against the Union.

(Printed in the Executive Intelligence Review, 1992, first published in The Campaigner, 1978.)

More;

The foundation of U.S.-Russian collaboration was laid in the 1763-1815 period. It was the product of the political influence exerted within Russia by the networks organized by Benjamin Franklin in the Russian Academy of Science.

In the War or 1812, Russia, under Czar Alexander I, submitted a near-ultimatum to England to hastily conclude an honorable peace with the United States and abandon all English claims of territorial aggrandizement. The American negotiators were the first to confirm that only the application of Russian pressure produced the sudden volte-face in Britain's attitude that achieved the Treaty of Ghent.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Do you just pick stuff out of thin air, where do you come up with such stuff??

1. I never said or even implied that you are a fool.

You said we couldn't put the intel together to know that the Japanese Navy was about to attack Pearl Harbor.

I called BS and said that was the credo of FDR apologists.

You said you were many things but an FDR apologist you were not.

So I said then that you were evidently ignorant of the facts.

So where do you stand now???

Do you agree that FDR and his top men in Washington knew of the eminent Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor or not??

2. I never mentioned 'Kursk' in any post in any thread on this board ever at any time.

Yes it was a huge battle, so what??

Eisenhower was wise to wait until '44 to invade Europe rather than probably suffer a disastrous defeat by landing in '42 as General George Marshall wished.

Our allies the Serbians lost more men per capita fighting the Nazis than any other nationality, their dogged determination kept large numbers of Nazi troops occupied in the Balkans all summer of '41 and thus they kept many Germans out of the battles on the eastern front until the fall and probably saved Moscow from being captured before the Siberian winter weather overcame the exposed German troops but at the end of the war we threw the Serbians to the communists.

Now that we have gotten that out of the way.

We also disagreed about the role of the Russians in the war between the states, (that you insist on calling the 'civil war', a civil war is when two opposing forces battle for control of the government, the south never wanted to control the US government, the south only wanted freedom from the US government).

You said the Russian Navy only ported in New York and San Francisco to avoid their own ice locked ports.

If that is true, then why did they stay for the whole year?? Also why did the Russian Navy participate in the blockade of Charleston, S.C.?

The Russians’ arrival suggested to on-lookers that they intended to defend the Union against interference.

A wartime alliance between the United States and Russia was negotiated by U.S. Ambassador to Russia Cassius Clay (1861-1862 and 1863-1869). This is a chapter of American history which is no longer known today by Americans: It was Russia's military weight and threats of reprisals against Britain and France, that prevented any British-led intervention against the Union.

(Printed in the Executive Intelligence Review, 1992, first published in The Campaigner, 1978.)

More;

1.) Correct, in hindsight it looks as if we knew the exact second the japanese were going to attack.

2.) It is called a joke.

3.) Correct, is was a political move to have their ships in place to raid the French commerce fleet.

4.) Seward was the player with the Russians. He got us alaska for pennies.

 

[Plano Vol]

The Nips slipped one in on us and Cordell Hull called them pissants.

A large percentage of the GI's were second or third generation Germans....I don't think the Boche had any edge from a genetics point of view.

Ambrose quotes several G.I's as saying that the U. S. replacement training was abysmal and many American lives could have been saved with better training.

 

[kev20]

This thing started out pretty interesting, but has died a slow death since.

German Bunker in my Garden

 

[IPorange]

Well, I know that if I don't agree with gs I must be wrong and ignoring the "facts," but it isn't an airtight case against FDR. Sorry. Talk about revisionist history.

 

[gsvol]

1.) Correct, in hindsight it looks as if we knew the exact second the japanese were going to attack.

2.) It is called a joke.

3.) Correct, is was a political move to have their ships in place to raid the French commerce fleet.

4.) Seward was the player with the Russians. He got us alaska for pennies.

1. Don't know if you are making another joke or not, but FDR and company knew the attack would come the morning of Dec 7th, about that there is no doubt.

2. Not sure I get your joke but ha, ha.

3. Even more so to deter the British fleet.

4. The Russians offered to give us Alaska for support during the Crimean War just preceding the War between the states. The British, French and Turks were aligned against Russia in the Crimean war.

Even though Seward negotiated well for Alaska, he received a great amount of public ridicule in the USA.

In reality the Russians wanted to be reimbursed for their help of the Union during our war and since it was illegal for us to pay a foreign government for war time assistance, the purchase of Alaska was arranged to pay the Russian expenses.

The Nips slipped one in on us and Cordell Hull called them pissants.

FDR maneuvered the Japanese into the war.

First if he had wanted to keep us out of the war he could have been less demanding of the Japanese, that early negotiating helped get the pro-war Nips into power in Japan and discredited the moderates who didn't want war with the US.

FDR wanted war with Germany mostly to aid his hero Stalin, his negotiations in the far east were slanted toward keeping the Japanese from joining Germany in war against the USSR creating two fronts for the USSR.

The American people didn't want to go to war again and FDR won the election by promising he would keep us out of the war but he tried to bait the Germans into war and they wouldn't take the bait.

So then his embargo of Japan, an illegal act of war itself, among other demands, insured that the Japanese would attack us and that was the trigger he used to sell the war to America.

A large percentage of the GI's were second or third generation Germans....I don't think the Boche had any edge from a genetics point of view.

There was a lot of anti-German sentiment here during the war, I knew one old man who was German but always told everyone he was Swiss for that reason.

Incidentally, we sent a force of Japanese American volunteers to fight in Europe, they fought admirably.

Ambrose quotes several G.I's as saying that the U. S. replacement training was abysmal and many American lives could have been saved with better training.

The family of an uncle of mine always blamed the US army for his brother's death. One day his brother was a farm boy and two weeks later he was in Italy loading a howitzer and was accidentally killed by the recoil from his own piece shortly thereafter.

 

[7thgroupvolfan]

The picture above is of the Camp O'Donnell Memorial

Monument. The memorial was built by the organization known as "The Battling Bastards of Bataan" to honor those American men who died at Camp O'Donnell, while prisoners of the Japanese.

The monument is located in the Capas National Shrine, in Capas, Tarlac, Philippines,adjacent to the memorial for the Philippine Army dead. Camp O'Donnell was the first prison camp for the men who survived the "Death March". The picture was taken by James Litton.

The "Cross" was built as a memorial to the thousands who died in that camp. It is as much a part of Bataan as the participants in that battle. The inscription on the base of the "Cross" reads "Omnia Pro Patria": All For Country. On the wall behind the "Cross" are inscribed the names of the men who died at Camp O'Donnell.

The original "Cement Cross" is now on display in the National Prisoner of War Museum, at the Andersonville National Historic Site, Andersonville, GA. It was brought to this country by Bataan survivors.




You kept saying FDR gave America hope.

Well then if you aren't an FDR apologist, then you were ignorant of the facts when you said we had the intel but couldn't put it together.

We had the intelligence put together, FDR wanted maximum political effect when the attack came, the slimy coward didn't even have the decency to give enough warning so that our men could man their battle stations and at least have a fighting chance.




I wouldn't call it a good thread when urban myth is perpetuated.

If you bothered to read even a tiny bit of what I posted, and were the man you claim to be, then instead of whining, you would thank me for setting you straight.

3 years ago I got the privilege to meet John L. Mims one of the last survivors of the Bataan Death March. Needless to say say he had some very graphic stories to tell of the atrocities him and his men faced. Many men started the march....very few made it to the camp.

 

[gsvol]

Well, I know that if I don't agree with gs I must be wrong and ignoring the "facts," but it isn't an airtight case against FDR. Sorry. Talk about revisionist history.

Read page five!!! I dare you!

There is nothing revisionist at all about it, the facts speak for themselves.

You are correct when you say the case is air tight against FDR.

More facts for you.

1944!!!

By the next day, the requested intercepts had been delivered — 43 in all. The admirals on the Court listened to them being read with looks of horror and disbelief. Two of the admirals flung their pencils down. More than 2,000 died at Pearl Harbor because those messages had been withheld. Navy Department officers gave additional testimony. After nearly three months, the inquiry finished. The verdict of the Roberts Commission was overturned. Admiral Kimmel was exonerated on all charges. Admiral Stark — who had rejected pleas of juniors to notify Hawaii on the morning of the attack — was severely censured.

The Board's conclusions still expressed modest criticism of General Short, but found overwhelming guilt in General Marshall and his Chief of War Plans, General Gerow. Its report ended with this statement: "Up to the morning of December 7, 1941, everything that the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States except [Tokyo's final diplomatic message] the very hour and minute when bombs were falling on Pearl Harbor."

Navy Secretary Knox told the press that the Naval Court of Inquiry had marked its conclusions "secret," and therefore nothing could be published.

(BTW, General George Marshall testified before congress he had been out horseback riding the morning of Dec 7th, 1941, when in fact he had met the Russian emissary at the airport, he was just one more treasonous scoundrel in the utterly corrupt FDR administration.)

Tokyo's final diplomatic message, the 'winds' message:

One man wouldn't bend — Captain Laurance Safford, father of naval cryptography. Safford had overseen that branch of naval intelligence for many years. He personally invented some 20 cryptographic devices, including the most advanced used by our armed forces. For his work, he was ultimately awarded the Legion of Merit.

Safford, who had testified before the Naval Inquiry that he had seen the "winds" message, was confronted by Sonnett. Safford wrote of this meeting: "His purpose seemed to be to refute testimony (before earlier investigations) that was unfavorable to anyone in Washington, to beguile 'hostile' witnesses into changing their stories...."

In a memorandum written immediately after the encounter, Safford recorded some of Sonnett's verbal prods, such as: "It is very doubtful that there ever was a Winds Execute [message]"; "It is no reflection on your veracity to change your testimony"; and, "It is no reflection on your mentality to have your memory play you tricks — after such a long period."

Safford realized a colossal cover-up was underway, but was not surprised. He had already discovered that all copies of the "winds" message in Navy files, along with other important Pearl Harbor memos, had been destroyed.

Indeed, just four days after Pearl Harbor, Rear Admiral Leigh Noyes, director of naval communications, told his subordinates: "Destroy all notes or anything in writing."

This was an illegal order — naval memoranda belong to the American people and cannot be destroyed except by congressional authority. Stories circulated of a similar information purge in the War Department. Some files, however, escaped destruction.

Captain Laurance Safford, however, remained fearless in his revelations. A campaign to "nail" him was soon evidenced among committee Democrats. Congressman John Murphy, a former assistant DA, put him through a wringer of cross-examination.

Safford's personal mail was read aloud before the committee in an effort to humiliate him. Artful polemics made the captain — naval cryptography's most eminent man — look forgetful on one hand, vindictive toward superiors on the other.

Safford was accused of being the only one to believe in the "winds" message. In fact, no less than seven officers had acknowledged seeing it before having their memories "helped." Perhaps the browbeating of Safford helped inspire Colonel Otis Sadtler of the Signal Corps. During the Clausen investigation, Sadtler had recanted his testimony about the message.

Now he came forward and corroborated Safford. (Any doubts about the "winds" affair have since been dispelled. As historian John Toland reports, both Japanese assistant naval attachés posted at the Washington embassy in 1941 have verified that the message was transmitted on December 4th, exactly as Safford said.)

May 25, 1999, the U.S. Senate approved a resolution that Kimmel and Short had performed their duties "competently and professionally" and that our losses at Pearl Harbor were "not the result of dereliction of duty." "They were denied vital intelligence that was available in Washington," said Senator William V. Roth Jr. (R-Del.). Strom Thurmond (R-S.C.) called Kimmel and Short "the two final victims of Pearl Harbor."

So who believes revisionist history???

You.

And I have plenty more where that came from!!!

3 years ago I got the privilege to meet John L. Mims one of the last survivors of the Bataan Death March. Needless to say say he had some very graphic stories to tell of the atrocities him and his men faced. Many men started the march....very few made it to the camp.

My uncle was a Marine and was in most of the landings across the Pacific.

The Japs would take a captured American, hang him from a tree, strip flesh off him while still living and cook and eat it right before him while he screamed so loud his comrades could hear.

Even with all the barbarity of the Japanese, they came in third on the list he despised after the war.

1. muslim islanders
2. the Russians
3. the Japanese

To him at least the Japanese were at war with us, the first two pretended to be friends but would stab you in the back the minute your head was turned.

He was particularly disdainful of the muslims who practiced the taking of heads for shock value.

I used to often visit a man who piloted a B-17 for 35 missions over Europe, statistically, being on a B-17 crew meant you were least likely to survive the war.

 

[Fine Vol]

Just bought band of brothers wow what a great look at WWII.

 

[Fine Vol]

You can buy M-1 Garand's from the gov't for a reasonable price.

If you have the money, you can buy any weapon from World War II.

WOW I would love to, about 1200. you think?

 

[Fine Vol]

Interesting facts!
On US artillery:

One of the most deadly tactics employed was the time-on-target (TOT) concentration. A TOT massed fires from several battalions onto a selected target and calculated the times of flight for the shells from each battery so that they all arrived on target at nearly the same instant (a similar tactic, called a "Stonk", had been developed independently by the Royal Artillery in North Africa).

 

[Fine Vol]

In Hitler's Henchmen Dr. Henk van Capelle and Dr. Peter van de Bovenkamp tell how Henriette von Schirach in 1943 was invited to the Netherlands by friends in the German occupation forces. She witnessed a frightful scene in Amsterdam: a crowd of scared Jewish women with bundles brutally being rounded up for deportation.

She was shocked and asked her friends for an explanation. She later recalled: "I was told that Jewish women were being deported and didn't I know about it? .. My friends advised me to take the matter up with Hitler himself .."

Henriette broke off her visit to the Netherlands, and telephoned the Berghof to make an appointment with Hitler: "It was a splendid, somewhat sultry fall evening when we joined the regular company by the large open fire at the Berghof. I was still confused and had thought out no plan for the manner in which I would approach Hitler .. Long after midnight Hitler turned to me and asked in a friendly tone: You have just come back from Holland, have you not?"

Henriette presumed on her long friendship with Hitler to describe what she had witnessed in Amsterdam: "Although I had already had a double cognac, the moment still came totally unexpectedly. I took a deep breath and answered: Yes, that is why I am here. I wanted to speak to you about some terrible things I saw; I cannot believe that you know about them. Helpless women were being rounded up and driven together to be sent off to a concentration camp and I think that they will never return."

"A painful stillness fell; all color had left Hitler's face. His face looked like a death mask in the light of the flames. He looked at me aghast and at the same time surprised and said: We are at war. He very cautiously stood up .. At that moment he screamed at me: You are sentimental, Frau von Schirach! You have to learn to hate! What have Jewish women in Holland got to do with you?"

"The rest of the company were quite as mice. Nobody looked at me. I walked out of the room and once in the vestibule I began to run. One of Hitler's adjutants came running after me. The Führer was furious. I was asked to leave the Obersalzberg immediately."

Henriette von Schirach and her husband were never invited again ...

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Read up on the battle of Stalingrad sometime.

Mercy, that will churn your stomach.

 

[saxvol]

Read up on the battle of Stalingrad sometime.

Mercy, that will churn your stomach.

Yep grusome stuff, men cramed into open pits coverd by tarps trying to keep warm, laying on top of each other, all mixed in. The sic, wounded and already dead. To weak or to cold to go relieve themselves, what misery it must have been.
After reading that book its very easy to see why we should not have women in combat.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Yep grusome stuff, men cramed into open pits coverd by tarps trying to keep warm, laying on top of each other, all mixed in. The sic, wounded and already dead. To weak or to cold to go relieve themselves, what misery it must have been.
After reading that book its very easy to see why we should not have women in combat.

The Germans adopting flame throwers to get the snipers out of the sewers is also a nasty party of this battle.

 

[DC Vol]

Read up on the battle of Stalingrad sometime.

Mercy, that will churn your stomach.

I recommend watching "Stalingrad" (1993).

 

[OrangeEmpire]

I recommend watching "Stalingrad" (1993).

Enemy at the Gates is not too shabby either.

Especially the soilders being hurried across the Volga then handed an empty rifle and their "partner" being handed a cartridge of rounds.

 

[KB5252]

Read up on the battle of Stalingrad sometime.

Mercy, that will churn your stomach.

I've read stories about German and Russian troops caught in the blizzards while doing battle in Russia. Men would cut flesh right off of the horses pulling gear. The horses were so numb from the cold and frost bite they never felt the blade, they didn't bleed because the blood was semi congealed.

Men driven half crazy from the cold stripping off boots and clothing. If a man stopped moving in most cases they died. Many accounts of canibalism.