50 dead, 40+ wounded in nightclub attack in Florida

#354
#354
MT LeConte said:
The thing that is clear is that no one has any good ideas about how to deal with this. (At least none that are legal.)
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The best place to start is for moderate Muslims to come out en masse and denounce this kind of thing when it happens anywhere in the world. Right now the extremist have the loudest voice, and that causes the knee-jerk reactions we see.

The problem is two-fold in my opinion. First, the press tends to report big stuff like this when it happens with equal coverage of the moderate community denouncing this as an aberration of the Islamic faith. In fact, they should give more coverage to the moderate voices. Stop plastering images of the attackers and beheadings and burning embassy's all over the place and start coverage on the moderate factions that make up the larger community that need a voice.

Second, and one I think needs to be equally addressed, is the moderates that are not actually speaking out against it. While more will come out against something like this happening, others will be silent on the treatment of women and homosexuals in the larger Muslim community. It is past time we have an honest discourse with the tenets of the faith itself, and the issues that arise from it. In a place like Iran or Saudi where homosexuals are at best treated like second-class citizens, and at worst executed, there really isn't a honest leg to stand on when condemning something like this incident. That needs to be addressed. Ideas and beliefs have consequences, and we need to be able to question these in an honest manner without being labeled "Islamaphobic" by the liberal side of the debate. Its hard for me to believe that this shooter would have done what he did without harboring some ideas about the place homosexuals have in God's plan.

Reform needs to happen from within the faith itself and honest debate from outside the faith.
 
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#355
#355
Grand Vol said:
I think a careful balance of both can be achieved. I agree with you in the fact the secretive "lists" that one must prove innocence are wrong and have no place in our society. But I also disagree that Federal agencies shouldn't be investigating leads and keeping the data to themselves. Local and State agencies are far more suited to that kind of detail.
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It appears we're gonna find out in very short order.

Of course, all info should be sent to local agencies as they will be the first to respond. The fact they don't highlights the dysfunction in the justice system as a whole. It's asinine.
 
#361
#361
rjd970 said:
The best place to start is for moderate Muslims to come out en masse and denounce this kind of thing when it happens anywhere in the world. Right now the extremist have the loudest voice, and that causes the knee-jerk reactions we see.

The problem is two-fold in my opinion. First, the press tends to report big stuff like this when it happens with equal coverage of the moderate community denouncing this as an aberration of the Islamic faith. In fact, they should give more coverage to the moderate voices. Stop plastering images of the attackers and beheadings and burning embassy's all over the place and start coverage on the moderate factions that make up the larger community that need a voice.

Second, and one I think needs to be equally addressed, is the moderates that are not actually speaking out against it. While more will come out against something like this happening, others will be silent on the treatment of women and homosexuals in the larger Muslim community. It is past time we have an honest discourse with the tenets of the faith itself, and the issues that arise from it. In a place like Iran or Saudi where homosexuals are at best treated like second-class citizens, and at worst executed, there really isn't a honest leg to stand on when condemning something like this incident. That needs to be addressed. Ideas and beliefs have consequences, and we need to be able to question these in an honest manner without being labeled "Islamaphobic" by the liberal side of the debate. Its hard for me to believe that this shooter would have done what he did without harboring some ideas about the place homosexuals have in God's plan.

Reform needs to happen from within the faith itself and honest debate from outside the faith.
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Access Denied
 
#362
#362
Grand Vol said:
Three hours is not a long time in a hostage situation, which this was being labeled as.
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Yes it's hard to know exactly what was the thing to do but an active shooter is much different than a plain old hostage situation.

It was reported the shots began on the front end correct?
 
#363
#363
Lets assume that this guy really is linked to ISIS...

Then all of this violating of personal freedoms and TSA molesting at airports and pre-crime policing that we have been engaged in since 9/11 is a big waste of time.
 
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#364
#364
This is sad and pathetic. Prayers for the families of those who died, and the ones injured.
 
#366
#366
Rasputin_Vol said:
Lets assume that this guy really is linked to ISIS...

Then all of this violating of personal freedoms and TSA molesting at airports and pre-crime policing that we have been engaged in since 9/11 is a big waste of time.
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Of course it is. Especially with our porous borders.

And I'm an open border guy.
 
#367
#367
BruinVol said:
Yes it's hard to know exactly what was the thing to do but an active shooter is much different than a plain old hostage situation.

It was reported the shots began on the front end correct?
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It was also reported that he entered the club and took hostages.

You don't go rushing headlong into a hostage situation. During an active shooter situation, you attempt to locate the target and neutralize it. But with the amount of victims as well as the innocent bystanders trying to escape, initial responding patrolmen would have been quickly overwhelmed by the situation. And when it got reported as a hostage situation, you do your best to treat the wounded, get information and let SWAT take over.
 
#370
#370
Grand Vol said:
It was also reported that he entered the club and took hostages.

You don't go rushing headlong into a hostage situation. During an active shooter situation, you attempt to locate the target and neutralize it. But with the amount of victims as well as the innocent bystanders trying to escape, initial responding patrolmen would have been quickly overwhelmed by the situation. And when it got reported as a hostage situation, you do your best to treat the wounded, get information and let SWAT take over.
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So shots weren't fired until the swat team came in?
 
#373
#373
Grand Vol said:
Where in the blue **** did you get that from my post?
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You said he went in and took hostages

I am just trying to figure out what was reported

I thought it was reported he went in shooting at the start. If that's the case I can't see waiting 3hours was the best thing to do

When did the shooting start?
 
#374
#374
BruinVol said:
You said he went in and took hostages

I am just trying to figure out what was reported

I thought it was reported he went in shooting at the start. If that's the case I can't see waiting 3hours was the best thing to do

When did the shooting start?
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I don't think anything has been confirmed to be honest. They aren't even sure when the killings started yet.
 
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