Butch Jones has revised the program

[MWAVolfan]

The difference being that with the ACC being a wreck in 2009, Dabo capitalized on it and won his division; CBJ squandered the opportunity to do the same.

I believe Dooley's 2012 team could have won the east last year.

 

[jakez4ut]

How does 17 minutes of good game-day coaching in the 2016 Florida game, negate the hundreds of minutes in other games where Butch coached poorly?

eh. nobody's gonna deny the less than stellar decision making he's shown, especially in key situational moments.

we all know the ones, they stand out like sore thumbs. and even when they didn't result in meltdowns that cost us games, he's shown the same tendencies in similar situations.

to that end, i think my biggest criticisms of CBJ are directly related to his situational awareness and decision making prowess/intuition in those spots, and his overall communication skills off the field.

generally speaking, i don't think he's a terrible coach. he's not, though, shown that he has the ability or skill set necessarily needed to get a program like TN to a place farther along that it is currently.

he's a good coach. bad coaches don't get programs that were in the shape we were in, to where we are now.

he just hasn't shown that he can be anything more than he has so far. which might fly at some other programs.

9-4 is good. and if you can do that consistently at some other programs, they may build a statue of you.

the standard here is higher than that, and while no one should call what he's done here garbage, i don't think anyone should be getting that statue ready either.:thumbsup:

 

[MWAVolfan]

eh. nobody's gonna deny the less than stellar decision making he's shown, especially in key situational moments.

we all know the ones, they stand out like sore thumbs. and even when they didn't result in meltdowns that cost us games, he's shown the same tendencies in similar situations.

to that end, i think my biggest criticisms of CBJ are directly related to his situational awareness and decision making prowess/intuition in those spots, and his overall communication skills off the field.

generally speaking, i don't think he's a terrible coach. he's not, though, shown that he has the ability or skill set necessarily needed to get a program like TN to a place farther along that it is currently.

he's a good coach. bad coaches don't get programs that were in the shape we were in, to where we are now.

he just hasn't shown that he can be anything more than he has so far. which might fly at some other programs.

9-4 is good. and if you can do that consistently at some other programs, they may build a statue of you.

the standard here is higher than that, and while no one should call what he's done here garbage, i don't think anyone should be getting that statue ready either.:thumbsup:

The quality of coaching at LSU and Georgia was far superior to UT and they fired their coaches. UT should be a better program than either of those.

 

[BeardedVol]

eh. nobody's gonna deny the less than stellar decision making he's shown, especially in key situational moments.

we all know the ones, they stand out like sore thumbs. and even when they didn't result in meltdowns that cost us games, he's shown the same tendencies in similar situations.

to that end, i think my biggest criticisms of CBJ are directly related to his situational awareness and decision making prowess/intuition in those spots, and his overall communication skills off the field.

generally speaking, i don't think he's a terrible coach. he's not, though, shown that he has the ability or skill set necessarily needed to get a program like TN to a place farther along that it is currently.

he's a good coach. bad coaches don't get programs that were in the shape we were in, to where we are now.

he just hasn't shown that he can be anything more than he has so far. which might fly at some other programs.

9-4 is good. and if you can do that consistently at some other programs, they may build a statue of you.

the standard here is higher than that, and while no one should call what he's done here garbage, i don't think anyone should be getting that statue ready either.:thumbsup:

I'd disagree with that statement with the current state of UT's schedule.

We typically schedule 3 lower-conference teams every year that are (should be) near automatic wins, and 1 decent OOC opponent from a P5 conference.

With that sort of schedule getting 9 total wins that includes a 2nd-tier bowl win against a middling B1G school isn't that impressive if you are still sitting .500 in your conference record.

 

[IknoxvolsI]

It's almost like Butch is trying to find ways not to win!

To an extent, that kinda makes some sense. Can you all imagine what the expectations would be like had he won the Fla, Okla, Ark games and only finished with one loss in '15? Talk about melt downs on VN! Makes me wonder if he was actually OK with those losses!

 

[Iam4utalways]

It's almost like Butch is trying to find ways not to win!

To an extent, that kinda makes some sense. Can you all imagine what the expectations would be like had he won the Fla, Okla, Ark games and only finished with one loss in '15? Talk about melt downs on VN! Makes me wonder if he was actually OK with those losses!

I don't.

 

[BeardedVol]

It's almost like Butch is trying to find ways not to win!

To an extent, that kinda makes some sense. Can you all imagine what the expectations would be like had he won the Fla, Okla, Ark games and only finished with one loss in '15? Talk about melt downs on VN! Makes me wonder if he was actually OK with those losses!

No. CBJ's desire to win is unquestionable, just not his ability to do so in the SEC.

 

[jakez4ut]

The quality of coaching at LSU and Georgia was far superior to UT and they fired their coaches. UT should be a better program than either of those.

why SHOULD we? and how far superior was it, really, in the end? that they beat us at some point the last decade? i'd say "get in line". and really, what does that have to do with anything that i posted about? LSU nor GA were in the same type of shape TN was in when Miles took over LSU and Richt did GA.

all this has to do with is what the priorities are at TN, competitively. at LSU, i think we know. at GA, i think we know. but both put up with a coach that won, a lot, for a decade or more.

their sin...not winning enough SEC titles or Natty at GA, and not enough of either at LSU. but both guys were in their jobs for a long time.

conversely, we've had 4 coaches in the last 9 years.

but there's nothing that says we "should" be better than anyone. should we be competing at similar levels, not going on decade long losing streaks to rivals? should 9-4 be considered an average year, and not one to hang a banner for?

yes.

 

[jakez4ut]

I'd disagree with that statement with the current state of UT's schedule.

We typically schedule 3 lower-conference teams every year that are (should be) near automatic wins, and 1 decent OOC opponent from a P5 conference.

With that sort of schedule getting 9 total wins that includes a 2nd-tier bowl win against a middling B1G school isn't that impressive if you are still sitting .500 in your conference record.

well it's a good thing i didn't say that.... in fact, nothing in your response, has anything to do with what i posted.

 

[NeverWe'llSever]

why SHOULD we? and how far superior was it, really, in the end? that they beat us at some point the last decade? i'd say "get in line". and really, what does that have to do with anything that i posted about? LSU nor GA were in the same type of shape TN was in when Miles took over LSU and Richt did GA.

all this has to do with is what the priorities are at TN, competitively. at LSU, i think we know. at GA, i think we know. but both put up with a coach that won, a lot, for a decade or more.

their sin...not winning enough SEC titles or Natty at GA, and not enough of either at LSU. but both guys were in their jobs for a long time.

conversely, we've had 4 coaches in the last 9 years.

but there's nothing that says we "should" be better than anyone. should we be competing at similar levels, not going on decade long losing streaks to rivals? should 9-4 be considered an average year, and not one to hang a banner for?

yes.

History says we should. We used to pummel Georgia every year and beat LSU every time we played them. I think we're like 20-9 against LSU. About to be 21-9 😁

 

[jakez4ut]

History says we should. We used to pummel Georgia every year and beat LSU every time we played them. I think we're like 20-9 against LSU. About to be 21-9 😁

in theory, then, what you're saying is we "should" lose to FL and Bama every year since history says that's how it is.:clapping:

 

[Brave Volunteer]

siap, he's not helped himself most of the time in his communication TO the media, and aside from the "6-7 year" comment i referenced earlier, he really hasn't helped himself. and the frustration is the lack of awareness and judgement in choosing what he says, how he says it and more importantly who he's saying it do. he has an opportunity to communicate with fans thru the media, instead, he chooses to communicate TO the media, and he thinks he's controlling the narrative, and it's wound up being the exact opposite.

But if he's winning nobody cares what he says to the media. That's why I said people complaining about the "champions of life" comment is just a side effect of their growing frustration with our on the field performance. If we had won the east and Butch had said this, very few people would've batted an eye.

 

[jakez4ut]

But if he's winning nobody cares what he says to the media. That's why I said people complaining about the "champions of life" comment is just a side effect of their growing frustration with our on the field performance. If we had won the east and Butch had said this, very few people would've batted an eye.

agreed. the same things that endear you to a fanbase when you're winning, turn in to stubborn cliches when you're losing.

coaches, especially one like CBJ that has such a mixed bag of results--good off the field, average at best on it--at least has to be aware of the perception, aware of the lack of control he has over the narrative.

it's not that he said 'champions of life'. it's that he said it in response to a question about not winning the SEC East.

and no one wants to hear that. even if it's genuine, and factually correct, it was pi--ti--ful timing. say that in B'him in July. or first presser in spring.

not after you lose to SC, watch FL beat LSU, and you still have Vandy to play. didn't get it, still don't get it. he has to be smarter than that. :thumbsup:

 

[NeverWe'llSever]

in theory, then, what you're saying is we "should" lose to FL and Bama every year since history says that's how it is.:clapping:

It's not necessarily that we win or lose every matchup, just that we are achieving more than them consistently i.e. better seasons, more titles. But beating them every year would be a nice start👍. And Florida, no. They're a strange case because I feel we'd have a 20+ game lead over them if we played every year consistently before 1990. But Bama, yeah.

 

[jbr82]

It's almost like Butch is trying to find ways not to win!

To an extent, that kinda makes some sense. Can you all imagine what the expectations would be like had he won the Fla, Okla, Ark games and only finished with one loss in '15? Talk about melt downs on VN! Makes me wonder if he was actually OK with those losses!

Don't be fooled. TN is 9th winningest program in power 5 history. 2nd in SEC history. Don't ever lower your expectations bc of bad management and or bad coaching. Ever! The kick in the balls started way before Jones got here.

 

[jakez4ut]

It's not necessarily that we win or lose every matchup, just that we are achieving more than them consistently i.e. better seasons, more titles. But beating them every year would be a nice start👍. And Florida, no. They're a strange case because I feel we'd have a 20+ game lead over them if we played every year consistently before 1990. But Bama, yeah.

you can't have it both ways.

we should be better than LSU and GA because history says so, but we shouldn't lose to FL because it's different, and we should have a 20 game lead on FL, but we didn't play them when they sucked out loud in the 80's.

is that what i'm getting out of this????

it makes me sad.:cray:

 

[Iam4utalways]

Dobbs said it well, defend Neyland and beat Florida. I would add beat bama too.

If you have a shirt that's says "Beat X team", we should be beating those teams.

I've got one for bama and one for Florida, the rest I take for granted.

 

[NeverWe'llSever]

you can't have it both ways.

we should be better than LSU and GA because history says so, but we shouldn't lose to FL because it's different, and we should have a 20 game lead on FL, but we didn't play them when they sucked out loud in the 80's.

is that what i'm getting out of this????

it makes me sad.:cray:

Lol, I guess really the point I'm trying to get at is how inexcusable the last 18 years of UT Football have been. No SEC titles in almost two decades? That is NOT the standard UT has. This is the longest SEC title drought in UT HISTORY! And in the meantime, schools that we've typically achieved more than, i.e. LSU, UGA, UF have all won 2 or more SEC titles since 1999. Make it stop!

 

[jakez4ut]

Lol, I guess really the point I'm trying to get at is how inexcusable the last 18 years of UT Football have been. No SEC titles in almost two decades? That is NOT the standard UT has. This is the longest SEC title drought in UT HISTORY! And in the meantime, schools that we've typically achieved more than, i.e. LSU, UGA, UF have all won 2 or more SEC titles since 1999. Make it stop!

ok, on that i agree. i just didn't get the notion that we "should be" better than anyone.

we "should be" a lot better than we've been, i agree.

 

[MWAVolfan]

why SHOULD we? and how far superior was it, really, in the end? that they beat us at some point the last decade? i'd say "get in line". and really, what does that have to do with anything that i posted about? LSU nor GA were in the same type of shape TN was in when Miles took over LSU and Richt did GA.

all this has to do with is what the priorities are at TN, competitively. at LSU, i think we know. at GA, i think we know. but both put up with a coach that won, a lot, for a decade or more.

their sin...not winning enough SEC titles or Natty at GA, and not enough of either at LSU. but both guys were in their jobs for a long time.

conversely, we've had 4 coaches in the last 9 years.

but there's nothing that says we "should" be better than anyone. should we be competing at similar levels, not going on decade long losing streaks to rivals? should 9-4 be considered an average year, and not one to hang a banner for?

yes.

Our program has history and tradition that those other teams simply don't have. Tennessee absolutely should be on a different level than Georgia or LSU. Alabama and Tennessee are (or should be) the flagship programs of the SEC. LSU before Saban is a lot like Florida before Spurrier. In other words not much to brag about. Georgia has always been second fiddle to someone. That someone has changed through the years but their position in the pecking order has not.

The failure of the leadership at Tennessee to take its rightful position as that flagship program is a failure only they can own. Can't blame other teams. Have to blame them. Yes,Tennessee should be better than any team not named Alabama. Our performance against Florida during the Spurrier and Meyers years are what they are. Our performance against them since Meyers and Tebow left KS nothing but inexcusable. We absolutely should have been better than Florida the last seven years or so.

 

[jakez4ut]

Our program has history and tradition that those other teams simply don't have. Tennessee absolutely should be on a different level than Georgia or LSU. Alabama and Tennessee are (or should be) the flagship programs of the SEC. LSU before Saban is a lot like Florida before Spurrier. In other words not much to brag about. Georgia has always been second fiddle to someone. That someone has changed through the years but their position in the pecking order has not.

The failure of the leadership at Tennessee to take its rightful position as that flagship program is a failure only they can own. Can't blame other teams. Have to blame them.

i would imagine that FL and LSU and GA all feel similarly about their respective programs, and just feeling that way doesn't make it so, or correct or anything else.

agree with you on the leadership issue. but even addressing that, doesn't guarantee anything, much less assure anyone of anything believed rightfully theirs because history says "it should".

in general, i get what you're saying. not sure about the wording of what "should be" or "shouldn't be", but to say that this program should experience decade+ losing streaks to conf rivals, or be .500 against Vandy over any stretch of time, or go 20 years in between conf championships....etc...i agree.

 

[MWAVolfan]

point 1, yes, that happens. but to be fair, he's been his own worst enemy in this arena. point 2, specific to this upcoming season, agreed.
well, siap, he's not helped himself most of the time in his communication TO the media, and aside from the "6-7 year" comment i referenced earlier, he really hasn't helped himself. and the frustration is the lack of awareness and judgement in choosing what he says, how he says it and more importantly who he's saying it do. he has an opportunity to communicate with fans thru the media, instead, he chooses to communicate TO the media, and he thinks he's controlling the narrative, and it's wound up being the exact opposite.



i think there are those that want him to lose so he'll get fired. i also think that the "just enough to keep his job" only really applies short term. specifically for 2017. i think there's a fairly long leash this season given all the change in the program, both with the football program specifically for all the reasons you mentioned, and also administratively.

but 2018....i think that year sets up a lot like 2016 did. if there's another repeat, or worse, as expectations once again rise....then i think it's more than safe to say, CBJ has peaked. and then a decision needs to be made as to what the direction of the program should be competitively.

I don't think there are people that want him to lose. I just think there are people who feel like 9 wins is the ceiling for Jones and they want to rip the bandage off now rather than linger in football purgatory for 3 to 5 more years. There's a difference between wanting the team to win and realizing they probably won't and realizing you have to face the reality like an adult and not blindly support some one you are near certain will fail. That's what they think and where they come from.

That's not the same thing as rooting against him.

If you took a poll of how many people would be unhappy if Tennessee won 11 games under Jones, nobody would say "no thanks" I'd rather they win 5.

But those people think that 11 wins is in all likelihood never coming under Jones.

 

[jakez4ut]

I don't think there are people that want him to lose. I just think there are people who feel like 9 wins is the ceiling for Jones and they want to rip the bandage off now rather than linger in football purgatory for 3 to 5 more years. There's a difference between wanting the team to win and realizing they probably won't and realizing you have to face the reality like an adult and not blindly support some one you are near certain will fail. That's what they think and where they come from.

That's not the same thing as rooting against him.

If you took a poll of how many people would be unhappy if Tennessee won 11 games under Jones, nobody would say "no thanks" I'd rather they win 5.

But those people think that 11 wins is in all likelihood never coming under Jones.

oh, there are people out there that want him to fail, and fail fast, so he'll get fired. fringe minority, but they're out there. i think they believe that if he wins 11 games it's a fluke, and all we're signing up for the majority of the time is mediocre results with the occasional 10/11 win season sprinkled in.

again, it's a small minority, and i don't think it reflective the the fan base in general. i think most think like you described. want him to do well, but may not think he will. but'll take it if he does.:thumbsup:

 

[MWAVolfan]

i would imagine that FL and LSU and GA all feel similarly about their respective programs, and just feeling that way doesn't make it so, or correct or anything else.

agree with you on the leadership issue. but even addressing that, doesn't guarantee anything, much less assure anyone of anything believed rightfully theirs because history says "it should".

in general, i get what you're saying. not sure about the wording of what "should be" or "shouldn't be", but to say that this program should experience decade+ losing streaks to conf rivals, or be .500 against Vandy over any stretch of time, or go 20 years in between conf championships....etc...i agree.

Those fans can feel however they want about their programs. When their win loss record passes that of Tennessee's then their feelings are legitimate. Until then they are just feelings. But Tennessee has actually been there and done that. No need to feel it, you can know it as a fact.

 

[jakez4ut]

Those fans can feel however they want about their programs. When their win loss record passes that of Tennessee's then their feelings are legitimate. Until then they are just feelings. But Tennessee has actually been there and done that. No need to feel it, you can know it as a fact.

i can also know as fact that GA, FL and LSU over the last 15 years have been much better programs than TN.

again, siap, but if you're going to operate solely on what"should be", then we should expect to go on losing streaks to Bama and FL fairly regularly with modicums of success sprinkled in to some pretty dire stretches.

i mean, that's where we are now, so should next year start another 10 year losing streak to FL? how much longer do we continue to lose to Bama before we just say "we should lose to Bama".

it makes no sense, and what happened in 1945 has no bearing on what "should" happen today.