Holy Trinity Discussion

[PKT_VOL]

And yes, the Trinity IS among the most important pillars of the Faith. As expressed in the Nicean creed long before the Catholic/Orthodox split and over a thousand years before the Protestant reformation. So this is core doctrine, on the very Trunk of the Christian family tree as it were.

We believe in one God, the Father, the almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father.

I understand mainstream believers parrot this talking point to avoid heresy and the possible consequences of heresy.

Again, my question to you and any other believer who thinks the Trinity is a "core" belief, if you were to get absolute knowledge from an omniscient source (call it God, call it Jesus, call it the Holy Spirit, call it an angel, call it a prophet, call it an omniscient AI chatbot, call it an omniscient ugly alien, it doesn't matter for the hypothetical) that the Trinity was a simple theological error and something like Modalism was more accurate, would you suddenly stop believing in the rest of Christianity? If so, then the Trinity is indeed a core belief. If not, then the Trinity is not a core belief. I would bet on the latter.

 

[PKT_VOL]

its an interesting challenge of any long held idea by humans. progress is always challenged.

for Christians, if Jesus legitimately came back, would most of us who claim to be Christians recognize and follow him?

Great question. My answer is a resounding no.

Modern Christians are followers of Paul, not Jesus. Jesus coming back would be unrecognizable to them.

 

[Septic]

ah so without any of those religions none of the associated murder and genocide would have happened. a very naive argument.

we would have killed each other just the same. The Crusades are a great example, it didn't even start as an actual theological issue. it might have been sold that way, but that's not what actually started it. The Byzantines went to the pope to retake land in Turkey. theoretically that is also what the pope set out to do too. When the Christians took the holy land in the first crusade, they didn't just burn down the mosques and kick out the arabs, they also took the land, installed their own laws and traditions.

there is always going to be some reason to fight, trying to make it an issue of religion is just lazy.

Lazy is trying to downplay the genocide of tens of millions throughout history. What was the reason a few jets flew into the World Trade Center?

I think part of the issue is that Christians can't stand to be lumped into the same category with Muslims. In my eye's, you're not really all that different.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Isaiah 9:6For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
1Timothy:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

That doesn’t really help.
If I don’t understand your thought processes then posting random scripture won’t clear anything up

 

[bamawriter]

It depends on what we define as a "core" belief of the faith. There have been other "core" beliefs of the faith for millennia that have went by the wayside (Earth being the center of creation, literal interpretation of Genesis, etc.).

These are as much errors of science as they are theology. Probably more so in the case of geocentrism, given that practically every human accepted it, regardless of religion.

I would argue that Modalism (or some form thereof) or polytheism (or some form thereof) would still capture the core essence of Christianity without committing a silly unforced theological error.

Okay. Then argue for Modalism in contrast to the "silly unforced error" of Trinitarianism. I'd be interested to read it.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Before Messiah, salvation came through the sacrifices of the priests to roll sins forward. The crucifixion of Messiah was to erase sins of man eternal and provided a direct path of belief and acceptance for salvation through grace, with the heavenly sacrifical Lamb as the intermediary, not the earthly priesthood.

Incorrect.
Salvation is and has always been by faith.

Gen 15 (Abraham saved by faith.)

And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your [i]descendants be.” 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He [j]credited it to him as righteousness.

Hab 2 (the saved live by faith)

4 “Behold, as for the impudent one,
His soul is not right within him;
But the righteous one will live by his [a]faith.


So if sacrificing was required for salvation, the why does it return when Messiah is king?

God did not lie. He said hte Israel of that time left him. Therefore, he sent another to form a new covenant. The Messiah.

incorrect.
The Covanant G-d made with Abraham was everlasting.

In Genesis 17, God promises Abraham that his covenant with him and his descendants will last forever. In Genesis 26:5, God says he will establish an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants.

In Jeremiah 32:40, God says he will make an everlasting covenant with the people of Israel and will never stop doing good to them.

In Psalms 105, David sings about the Abrahamic covenant. In Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, God speaks prophetically about the covenant.

He says that the people will forsake Him, will be cast out of the land, BUT, He will remember the everlasting covenant He made with their father Abraham, He will remember His covenant and will establish it forever.

Totally agree that Messiah said his words will not pass away. And they won't. But, as seen in Hebrews 7-9, God did replace the path to him with a new order. It is a very detailed and specific study and delineates between old law and new law. Or OT and NT. Or Levitical/Moses Law. Whatever term you use.

All of this was prophesied in the OT and came to fruition.

That’s some snake level thinking.
“Did G-d say the law would not pass away?, no what he meant was it just wouldn’t matter anymore “

You know Hebrews was written by an anonymous person who never knew Yeshua, right? Written by someone who studied under a deciple
Heb 2:
3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? [d]After it was at first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

Psalms says G-ds law is established in heaven and is eternal.
Just something else Hebrews gets wrong.

I enjoy our conversation. If any of that seems snippy….it ain’t.
You’re my dude.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Hey, you have already been successful in egging Christians on over the Trinity and now you are bring up the question of a literal seven day creation? Are you TRYING to start an interdenominational holy war?
View attachment 714984
Before you are done, I fully expect you to bring up predestination, infant baptism, the status of Mary, Papal infallibility, grace vs works, purgatory, and the celibacy of priests.
I know an agent provocateur when Insee one

Question everything.
It is the way

 

[Orangeslice13]

I feel like I can go here cause we've discussed it in depth. And we're friends that have yet to meet in person. You say you are Messianic because your family is not of the tribe of Judah. So you're not Jewish. But, your faith is Judaism...to a degree. Makes perfectly good sense. "Jewish" is an ethnicity, not the religion. Thousands of you're own kind could stand to learn that difference. The term seems to be used too loosely. You, by broad stroke of a pen, are Hebrew, which would be of the other 11 tribes, and it can be dialed in from there.

You bring in a heavy dose of Christianity. What you said there, you will not hear from a mainsteamer. What makes you unique is that it's like you are standing on a dyke, with rivers flowing on both sides and you draw water from both pools and blend them for a cool drink. You believe/practice alot of new testament christianity, but at the same time, you have a healthy dose of judaism still in the blood. Kids went to a christian school, etc. It's like your journey has led you to a place where judaism and christianity are coexsting with you, which ideoligically, should not be possible. Maybe it's the Messianic side of Judaism that lends more toward new testament teachings and beliefs, cause I still find it quite interesting that being CoC, we have more in common in our individual beliefs and the basis for them than we have differences. Most of our differences maybe come from things we like to kick around that we have different levels of study in, that have no bearing on our accpted salvation.

The big thing is that salvation comes to us by faith, acceptance and grace via Christ/Messiah unto the Father. No Priest, or Rabbi, or Reverend, or Elder, or Deacon, or Pastor can absolve or intercede and provide that to anyone any longer. That concept and ability was levitical law. Individual, direct access for all peoples...that's new law.

Having said all that, it would be important to know that being Messianic is neither jewish, nor christian. It is a blend of both worlds. A messianic accepts that Jesus/Yeshua/?? was the Messiah. A Hasidic/Traditional/Orthodox etc. practitioner is still waiting on the Messiah and does not believe he was the King they asked for. Mainstream sects do not accept Yeshua as Messiah, whereas Messianics do. Keeping it brief, Messianic is what derived from the early christians. They were the early converts, that also felt it was ok to still practice some jewish traditions in the daily life, yet accpet Yeshua as Messiah and salvation. That would help some maybe know why sometimes you sound like a jew, and sometimes you sound like a nut.

As far as the world is concerned I’m a Jew.
I say Hebrew because only Judah is Jewish. I might as well give up on the distinction because even my fellow Hebrews all now say they are Jewish.
We can thank the Nazis for the confusion. Lol

Being Messianic simply means you worship G-d the way Yeshua, his followers and his follower’s followers did.

Keep Torah because it’s a blessing and it pleases G-d. It’s what people who love G-d do. They seek to please him.
It doesn’t save you. Never has. Believing G-d (faith) saves you

 

[Orangeslice13]

Can you point out some the significant textual differences? I've spot checked a few random passages and I'm not seeing much divergence.

The book of Enoch opens completely different than the one that’s not in your bible.

Interestingly Yeshua quotes the book and calls Enoch a prophet

Edit: at work talking a break. Smartass is the best I can do till later

 

[Orangeslice13]

The problem with this line of thinking is that it undercuts the core of theology. The foundational cornerstone of theology is that God, God's nature, and God's will is comprehensible by humans.

On a related secondary point, when competing with other religions/sects for market share, an apologist will quickly point out illogical aspects of competing frameworks. Thus, this line of thinking acts as insulation from skepticism via special pleading.

Truth by its very nature is exclusive.
Ahh, but who has the truth?
That’s where my stance is slightly different. I’m not trying to convert anyone. My concern is what I think and is it valid.

 

[Orangeslice13]

The bold is true is more ways than just the Trinity. It constantly amazes me how little mainstream Christianity takes Jesus at his word.

I call them Paulithesit. Because that’s who they quote….albeit mostly out of context.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Great question. My answer is a resounding no.

Modern Christians are followers of Paul, not Jesus. Jesus coming back would be unrecognizable to them.

Yup.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Back to work

 

[Orangeslice13]

@Dobbs 4 Heisman
Congratulations. What you meant for mocking has turned into a really deep and thought provoking discussion.

Blind hog and an acorn

 

[Ritzwatch]

As far as the world is concerned I’m a Jew.
I say Hebrew because only Judah is Jewish. I might as well give up on the distinction because even my fellow Hebrews all now say they are Jewish.
We can thank the Nazis for the confusion. Lol

Being Messianic simply means you worship G-d the way Yeshua, his followers and his follower’s followers did.

Keep Torah because it’s a blessing and it pleases G-d. It’s what people who love G-d do. They seek to please him.
It doesn’t save you. Never has. Believing G-d (faith) saves you

Curious, if only descendants of Judah are Jewish, who are the Hebrews? I would think Abraham's line, but would that not also include those descendants of Ishmael? Or only the descendants of Abraham and Sarah? Of Jacob?

If indeed "Jewishness" is matrilineal, why is it that being a Jew is being descended from Judah, not Judah's wife (or daughters)? And, if matrilineal, how do we go from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob to Judah before determining who is a Jew?

Never have really sought these answers, and I am sure the internet is full of completely trustworthy but conflicting information, but I suspect you can give me some insight here.

No rush. It can wait til you are done with work.

 

[LouderVol]

Humans created theology on the premise that the divine was knowable. If humans are too effed up to comprehend the divine, theology (and subsequently any possible theological errors) ceases to have any meaning.



That wasn't the point. Since, again, the foundational concept of theology is that the divine is comprehensible. Thus, apologists of all flavors attempt to point out the flaws of competing frameworks under the assumption that truth of the divine is logically comprehensible by the human mind.



Given that we don't really have a clue about creation, it is impossible to assess who was accurate past let's say the creation of the Solar System.

A literal interpretation of Genesis just isn't accurate. Geocentrism is not accurate. Once you get get to looser interpretations, it can get more accurate the less literal and more figuratively you interpret it.

your first paragraph is a solid argument against science too. I think most people reject the type of nihilism you are presenting outside of absolute knowledge.

Meaning is purely based on the individual. for some it may just be myth, or just oral tradition, something to pass along at the fire. Others may consider it a faith as just a function of culture, while others make it a deep core "truth" of their personhood. or anything in between. you can't deny if something has meaning to others just because you have questions, or if there are unanswered questions. We accept science even though it doesn't have all the answers either.

just because there are disproven "sciences" out there, doesn't mean that there isn't actually a "true science" out there. just because some scientists disagree with others doesn't mean that everyone is wrong, or the idea of science is illogical.

Geocentrism isn't mentioned in the creation story. it comes up elsewhere, but you are conflating issues. it also doesn't say that there is no life outside of our planet, it only specifically mentioned life on earth.

again if you are going with your absolutism about creation and going back to whatever the first thing/energy/event/time, sure the bible doesn't fit it. but that was never the point of the bible. the creation story is about how we came to be under God, and it does a great job with that, again considering it was oral tradition from a stone age civilization.

 

[bamawriter]

The book of Enoch opens completely different than the one that’s not in your bible.

Not surprising. My (admittedly limited) understanding is that the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible is the only codex that contains the entire Book of Enoch. All of the Aramaic/Hebrew copies are incomplete.

Interestingly Yeshua quotes the book and calls Enoch a prophet

Can you quote that? I know that Jude makes a brief reference to Enoch and does say that he "prophesied."

 

[Orangeslice13]

Curious, if only descendants of Judah are Jewish, who are the Hebrews? I would think Abraham's line, but would that not also include those descendants of Ishmael? Or only the descendants of Abraham and Sarah? Of Jacob?

If indeed "Jewishness" is matrilineal, why is it that being a Jew is being descended from Judah, not Judah's wife (or daughters)? And, if matrilineal, how do we go from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob to Judah before determining who is a Jew?

Never have really sought these answers, and I am sure the internet is full of completely trustworthy but conflicting information, but I suspect you can give me some insight here.

No rush. It can wait til you are done with work.

Short story long.
The tribe of Judah were called Jews. The tribe of Levi were levites ect. Most tribal affiliation has been lost to history so I’ve given up and just accepted that all Hebrews are Jews.

In fact I think we need to change the name of the book of Hebrews to Jews.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Not surprising. My (admittedly limited) understanding is that the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible is the only codex that contains the entire Book of Enoch. All of the Aramaic/Hebrew copies are incomplete.


Can you quote that? I know that Jude makes a brief reference to Enoch and does say that he "prophesied."

I can look later but in the blessed speech Mathew 5:5 is a direct quote for Enoch
5 “Blessed are the [c]gentle, for they will inherit the earth.
Then there’s
Luke 6:24 Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed. Enoch 94:8 and 93:7 I’m pretty sure. Might be off.

Can’t remember the verse where messiah says Enoch was a prophet but I’ll look it up in a little bit

 

[GVF]

As far as the world is concerned I’m a Jew.
I say Hebrew because only Judah is Jewish. I might as well give up on the distinction because even my fellow Hebrews all now say they are Jewish.
We can thank the Nazis for the confusion. Lol

Being Messianic simply means you worship G-d the way Yeshua, his followers and his follower’s followers did.

Keep Torah because it’s a blessing and it pleases G-d. It’s what people who love G-d do. They seek to please him.
It doesn’t save you. Never has. Believing G-d (faith) saves you

Simply put...Half breed...religiously anyway.

 

[GVF]

Incorrect.
Salvation is and has always been by faith.

Gen 15 (Abraham saved by faith.)

And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your [i]descendants be.” 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He [j]credited it to him as righteousness.

Hab 2 (the saved live by faith)

4 “Behold, as for the impudent one,
His soul is not right within him;
But the righteous one will live by his [a]faith.


So if sacrificing was required for salvation, the why does it return when Messiah is king?


incorrect.
The Covanant G-d made with Abraham was everlasting.

In Genesis 17, God promises Abraham that his covenant with him and his descendants will last forever. In Genesis 26:5, God says he will establish an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants.

In Jeremiah 32:40, God says he will make an everlasting covenant with the people of Israel and will never stop doing good to them.

In Psalms 105, David sings about the Abrahamic covenant. In Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, God speaks prophetically about the covenant.

He says that the people will forsake Him, will be cast out of the land, BUT, He will remember the everlasting covenant He made with their father Abraham, He will remember His covenant and will establish it forever.




That’s some snake level thinking.
“Did G-d say the law would not pass away?, no what he meant was it just wouldn’t matter anymore “

You know Hebrews was written by an anonymous person who never knew Yeshua, right? Written by someone who studied under a deciple
Heb 2:
3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? [d]After it was at first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

Psalms says G-ds law is established in heaven and is eternal.
Just something else Hebrews gets wrong.

I enjoy our conversation. If any of that seems snippy….it ain’t.
You’re my dude.

I left out the always by faith cause I figured that was common. My point was that levitical access for sins was through the priests. New law access for the erasure of sin is direct from individual to God thru Yeshua. But, I do see if I make an assumption it did change the looks of what I said.

 

[bamawriter]

I can look later but in the blessed speech Mathew 5:5 is a direct quote for Enoch
5 “Blessed are the [c]gentle, for they will inherit the earth.

Are you sure about this one? I couldn't find "blessed are the gentle" or "blessed are the meek" in Enoch. I did find "they shall inherit the earth," but the rest of the verse is different: 1 Enoch 5:9 "But for the chosen, there will be light, joy, and peace, and they shall inherit the earth."

That's not similar enough to Matthew 5:5 to call it "a direct quote."

Then there’s
Luke 6:24 Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed. Enoch 94:8 and 93:7 I’m pretty sure. Might be off.

Again, not a direct quote. A few words are present in both, but then the rest diverge:

Luke 6:24: But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your comfort already.

1 Enoch 93:7 Woe to those who build up their houses with crime; for from their very foundations shall their houses be demolished, and by the sword shall they themselves fall. Those, too, who acquire gold and silver, shall justly and suddenly perish. Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed; because you have not remembered the Most High in the days of your prosperity: [you shall be removed, because you have not remembered the Most High in the days of your prosperity.

There are only six verses in 1 Enoch 94, so you must be thinking of something else.

Can’t remember the verse where messiah says Enoch was a prophet but I’ll look it up in a little bit

Jesus never mentions Enoch by name. It's possible that he said something like "as the prophet said" and then quoted Enoch, but you'd have to cite that one.

But again, I think you might be thinking of Jude 14 & 15.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

10 Little-Known Facts About Cleopatra | HISTORY

Check out 10 surprising facts about the fabled Queen of the Nile.

www.history.com

1. Cleopatra was not Egyptian.​

While Cleopatra was born in Egypt, she traced her family origins to Macedonian Greece and Ptolemy I Soter, one of Alexander the Great’s generals. Ptolemy reigned Egypt after Alexander’s death in 323 B.C., and he launched a dynasty of Greek-speaking rulers that lasted for nearly three centuries. Despite not being ethnically Egyptian, Cleopatra embraced many of her country’s ancient customs and was the first member of the Ptolemaic line to learn the Egyptian language.


Saw this the other day and thought it was interesting.

Ancient Egypt by that point had already been conquered by the Nubians then the Persians then the Greeks. Cleopatra is closer to our time than she was to the building of the Great Pyramid. That's how vast the history of Ancient Egypt is. And it's also why modern day Egypt looks nothing like how Ancient Egypt looked during the time of the Pharaohs. Egypt has been invaded so many times primarily by people from outside of Africa which is why modern Egyptians look nothing like their neighbors just to the South in Sudan and Ethiopia.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Simply put...Half breed...religiously anyway.

I prefer original in regards to religion as I am practicing the way Messiah and the 12 did.

It’s funny to my cousins I used to call myself “mud blood” as my mother is French/Native American but now I go with the more modern “Jew-ish”.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I left out the always by faith cause I figured that was common. My point was that levitical access for sins was through the priests. New law access for the erasure of sin is direct from individual to God thru Yeshua. But, I do see if I make an assumption it did change the looks of what I said.

You’re still missing the point. Sacrifice was never for forgiveness. Repentance /asking for forgiveness is how sins were forgiven. Messiah was often called the Passover lamb. Do Christians even know what the Passover lamb was for? It wasn’t for forgiveness.

Atonement is a completely different thing.

As for how your sins were forgiven before messiah.

Psalms 86
Be gracious to me, Lord,
For I call upon You all day long.
4 Make the soul of Your servant joyful,
For to You, Lord, I lift up my soul.
5 For You, Lord, are good, and ready to forgive,
And abundant in mercy to all who call upon You.
6 Listen, Lord, to my prayer;
And give Your attention to the sound of my pleading!
7 On the day of my trouble I will call upon You,
For You will answer me.
8 There is no one like You among the gods, Lord,

Psalms 25

16 Turn to me and be gracious to me,
For I am lonely and afflicted.
17 [k]The troubles of my heart are enlarged;
Bring me out of my distresses.
18 Look at my misery and my trouble,
And forgive all my sins.

Psalms 65

You who hear prayer,
To You all [b]mankind comes.
3 [c]Wrongdoings prevail against me;
As for our offenses, You [d]forgive them.

Just like they are now.
You have to ask and repent.