Holy Trinity Discussion

[Orangeslice13]

Unfortunately all too true

If you think about it in those terms, that’s w
Exactly the point Yeshua was making. The Pharisees created all these traditional rules that there’s no way the average person could keep so they would be the ruling class and maintain wealth and privilege. They (the Pharisees) were not about G-d or the people.

 

[LouderVol]

Among other reasons - the U.S. became a target to Al-Qaeda through our unwavering support of Israel, not because we were just strong arming our way around the M.E. haphazardly.

But no, you're right.

It was just coincidence that Al-Qaeda was a Muslim group that was looking to rid the world of the profane influence of the West and replace governments with fundamentalist Islamic regimes.

I'm sure that radicalized Islam had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. Just a coincidence all the attackers were all AQ. Also just a coincidence that ISIS rose from their ashes. Those guys are tied together by a common want for a better life for their kids and support for the local athletic club, definitely not on a common belief in Islamic zealotry.

Solid take.

But seriously, you're absolutely attempting to whitewash 'religious' atrocities through gaslighting like this. Millions have been victims of violence throughout history due to religious exclusivism which inevitably fosters violence against those who are considered outsiders.

Maybe you aren't comfortable with christians being lumped in to the same category as these guys? I don't know. You're smarter than this, very weird place to plant your flag.

you say that we weren't targeted because we were meddling, then go on and use a case of us meddling as why we were targeted. very strange and counter productive. we are involved over there in more than just Israel.

why is it a religious thing if we have played king maker over there?
Did we help Al Qaeda against the USSR because they were Muslim?
Do we help the Kurds today because they are Muslim?
What about the Jordanians and Sauds?
How about us choosing various sides in all the various Iraq vs Iran conflicts?
or what about us helping overthrow Assad and Gadhafi, was that religiously motivated?
I guess we sided with Pakistan over India because India is the Muslim country...

are we meddling in Taiwan to fight the muslims of China?
Are we helping Ukraine to fight the muslims in Russia?
Is NATO an alliance against the Muslim threat?
I bet you think all of those Banana Republic coups were secretly because they were Muslims.
Hitler, muslim.
Vietnam, muslims.
Korea, muslims.

like I said, religion is just window dressing as an excuse for the hatred of the US. something to distract people too simple to look into things for 5 minutes or look at the whole picture.

every single one of those had other, more important factors to our involvement beyond religion.

 

[LouderVol]

You know…….i had my DNA tested once. 23 and me. The results were that I’m mostly Jewish. Shocking I know. But the part that applies to your question is that I learned something in the process.

Did y’all know that every living person on this planet has a common ancestor? According to DNA research ereryDamnBody comes from one female ancestor 150,000 years ago in the Ethiopian area.

Interesting

historically there have been a couple bottlenecks in our genealogy. its another one of those cases where the bible mentioned something that is historically backed up, but because both sides are too stubborn they don't allow any overlap.

it either must be 100% from the bible, or 0% from the Bible. for some reason in archaeology's push to study more cultural traditions they ignore one of the best documented cases.

 

[Septic]

you say that we weren't targeted because we were meddling, then go on and use a case of us meddling as why we were targeted. very strange and counter productive. we are involved over there in more than just Israel.

why is it a religious thing if we have played king maker over there?
Did we help Al Qaeda against the USSR because they were Muslim?
Do we help the Kurds today because they are Muslim?
What about the Jordanians and Sauds?
How about us choosing various sides in all the various Iraq vs Iran conflicts?
or what about us helping overthrow Assad and Gadhafi, was that religiously motivated?
I guess we sided with Pakistan over India because India is the Muslim country...

are we meddling in Taiwan to fight the muslims of China?
Are we helping Ukraine to fight the muslims in Russia?
Is NATO an alliance against the Muslim threat?
I bet you think all of those Banana Republic coups were secretly because they were Muslims.
Hitler, muslim.
Vietnam, muslims.
Korea, muslims.

like I said, religion is just window dressing as an excuse for the hatred of the US. something to distract people too simple to look into things for 5 minutes or look at the whole picture.

every single one of those had other, more important factors to our involvement beyond religion.

I didn't say meddling got us targeted, you said that.

Part of your issue is that you're looking at this through 'murica tinted goggles. It's you who is attempting to make the argument that the U.S. isn't attacking these groups due to their religion. I'm making the point that the U.S. was targeted because we don't subscribe to theirs.

Again, if you can make a connection between the 9-11 attackers that doesn't have their radicalized view of Islam at its core - I'm all ears. Otherwise, my point that religion is responsible for millions of needless deaths throughout history stands.

 

[LouderVol]

I didn't say meddling got us targeted, you said that.

Part of your issue is that you're looking at this through 'murica tinted goggles. It's you who is attempting to make the argument that the U.S. isn't attacking these groups due to their religion. I'm making the point that the U.S. was targeted because we don't subscribe to theirs.

Again, if you can make a connection between the 9-11 attackers that doesn't have their radicalized view of Islam at its core - I'm all ears. Otherwise, my point that religion is responsible for millions of needless deaths throughout history stands.

its just as responsible as any other reason ever is. its just another reason/way to divide people.

How many less deaths do you think humanity would have if you completely ctrl+alt+delete'd the very concept of any god, religion, higher being, etc from humanity? You really think all of those millions are going to be here?

there are many millions/billions more that don't subscribe to their religion. they aren't enemy number one because they don't meddle. we aren't enemy #1 because we are a pseudo christian nation, that is just lazy. if that was the case the Vatican would have had a lot more issues.

 

[Septic]

its just as responsible as any other reason ever is. its just another reason/way to divide people.

How many less deaths do you think humanity would have if you completely ctrl+alt+delete'd the very concept of any god, religion, higher being, etc from humanity? You really think all of those millions are going to be here?

there are many millions/billions more that don't subscribe to their religion. they aren't enemy number one because they don't meddle. we aren't enemy #1 because we are a pseudo christian nation, that is just lazy. if that was the case the Vatican would have had a lot more issues.

Ironically, you seem to admit that religion is divisive. But then scoff at the notion that the devision it sows doesn't really have a history of violence.

You seem to be ducking my point about the 9-11 hijackers; if you can make a connection between the 9-11 attackers that doesn't have their radicalized view of Islam at its core - I'll digress. Otherwise, you should admit that religious violence is real and stop trying to gaslight me into believing it's "just an excuse."

 

[LouderVol]

Ironically, you seem to admit that religion is divisive. But then scoff at the notion that the devision it sows doesn't really have a history of violence.

You seem to be ducking my point about the 9-11 hijackers; if you can make a connection between the 9-11 attackers that doesn't have their radicalized view of Islam at its core - I'll digress. Otherwise, you should admit that religious violence is real and stop trying to gaslight me into believing it's "just an excuse."

when did I ever say it wasn't real? Again you are just making up bs. I never denied they were religious fanatics.

but in a world without religion they would just be X fanatics attacking us. and I don't see that as any different.

if the net difference in violence between a world with religion, and violence in a world with no religion, is zero its difficult for me to say that religion is to blame if the net is the same. which is what I believe it would be.

you are saying its religious CAUSATION I am saying its CORRELATION with religion.

 

[Orangeslice13]

historically there have been a couple bottlenecks in our genealogy. its another one of those cases where the bible mentioned something that is historically backed up, but because both sides are too stubborn they don't allow any overlap.

it either must be 100% from the bible, or 0% from the Bible. for some reason in archaeology's push to study more cultural traditions they ignore one of the best documented cases.

You’re absolutely correct

The funniest part for me is when I mention that to the hard core Baptist they tell me that can’t be right because the world is only 6000 years old.

(Don’t freak out if you’re a Baptist. Lots of denominations believe young earth)

 

[Septic]

when did I ever say it wasn't real? Again you are just making up bs. I never denied they were religious fanatics.

but in a world without religion they would just be X fanatics attacking us. and I don't see that as any different.

if the net difference in violence between a world with religion, and violence in a world with no religion, is zero its difficult for me to say that religion is to blame if the net is the same. which is what I believe it would be.

you are saying its religious CAUSATION I am saying its CORRELATION with religion.

You've implied since the beginning that religious violence is BS, some sort of smokescreen for whatever.

I'm absolutely stating that religion is the causation of religious based violence. Very literally, that's what I'm saying. It's asinine that any rational person would believe that violence in the name of "god" would be a correlation to <insert geopolitical excuse here.> This is willful ignorance, likely with a motive of not wanting to accept that Christianity isn't any different or special in its exclusivism than Islam. I get it though, it's probably something that Muslims, Christians, Jews and Catholics all would see eye to eye on - loathing the non-believer who asks the tough questions or points out that religious violence (including genocide) is a common issue all of them have experience with.

Again, it'd be supersimple to shut me up by connecting the dots of the 9-11 hijackers to something that wasn't rooted in radicalized Islam.

I'll hang up and listen.

 

[LouderVol]

You've implied since the beginning that religious violence is BS, some sort of smokescreen for whatever.

I'm absolutely stating that religion is the causation of religious based violence. Very literally, that's what I'm saying. It's asinine that any rational person would believe that violence in the name of "god" would be a correlation to <insert geopolitical excuse here.> This is willful ignorance, likely with a motive of not wanting to accept that Christianity isn't any different or special in its exclusivism than Islam. I get it though, it's probably something that Muslims, Christians, Jews and Catholics all would see eye to eye on - loathing the non-believer who asks the tough questions or points out that religious violence (including genocide) is a common issue all of them have experience with.

Again, it'd be supersimple to shut me up by connecting the dots of the 9-11 hijackers to something that wasn't rooted in radicalized Islam.

I'll hang up and listen.

If I loathed you I wouldn't respond to you. you and this discussion don't do anything but make me shake my head.

I have never said Christianity was any different. again I said we, Catholics, have the worst of it with the Crusades, and Inquisition. I specifically gave you word for word saying we were the worst, and you think I am making an exception?

since you are fixated on 9/11. I believe that if you simply removed religion from the world, but left the US doing exactly what it had been doing, we would have still been attacked. like we went through, divided up a region based on our wants, ignoring the locals, history, and any other non-religious cultural lines. and then followed that up with decades of playing king maker, randomly invading those nations, and generally treating that area like our play ground that those people would still be pissed and would attack us. there is no way you disagree with that.

if it really is all about religion please show me one religious war, one conflict, persecution, whatever; where there were no other contributing factors. Christian, Muslim, Jewish whoever. show me something where a serious historian can point it and go, yup, never would have been this fight if religion wasn't here. show me that causation. I will stack my knowledge of history up against anything you were fed in middle school by the gym teacher.

do you really believe the Spanish conquered the New World just because they wanted to spread the word of God? No other motivations? would have left the natives all alone if it wasn't for that pesky Christianity?
do you really think that taking and holding land, creating new noble houses, and exporting the goods of the area wasn't a part of the Crusades?
Do you really think the Sunnis and the Shiites only kill each other because of which guy followed Muhammad, and there would have been peace without that?
do you really think the Jews are trying to kick the Palestinians out because of the religion they practice?

 

[Septic]

If I loathed you I wouldn't respond to you. you and this discussion don't do anything but make me shake my head.

I have never said Christianity was any different. again I said we, Catholics, have the worst of it with the Crusades, and Inquisition. I specifically gave you word for word saying we were the worst, and you think I am making an exception?

since you are fixated on 9/11. I believe that if you simply removed religion from the world, but left the US doing exactly what it had been doing, we would have still been attacked. like we went through, divided up a region based on our wants, ignoring the locals, history, and any other non-religious cultural lines. and then followed that up with decades of playing king maker, randomly invading those nations, and generally treating that area like our play ground that those people would still be pissed and would attack us. there is no way you disagree with that.

if it really is all about religion please show me one religious war, one conflict, persecution, whatever; where there were no other contributing factors. Christian, Muslim, Jewish whoever. show me something where a serious historian can point it and go, yup, never would have been this fight if religion wasn't here. show me that causation. I will stack my knowledge of history up against anything you were fed in middle school by the gym teacher.

do you really believe the Spanish conquered the New World just because they wanted to spread the word of God? No other motivations? would have left the natives all alone if it wasn't for that pesky Christianity?
do you really think that taking and holding land, creating new noble houses, and exporting the goods of the area wasn't a part of the Crusades?
Do you really think the Sunnis and the Shiites only kill each other because of which guy followed Muhammad, and there would have been peace without that?
do you really think the Jews are trying to kick the Palestinians out because of the religion they practice?

I wasn't speaking of loathing "me". It was a generality - in that all faith-based religions will find common ground in despising the non-believer.

And I'm using 9-11 as a microcosm example of why you're unequivocally wrong. You can't refute what I'm saying but you keep doubling down a nonsensical argument that sunni's and shiites would be fighting over something else if it weren't for religion.

Pay attention here. They aren't fighting abut something else. They are fighting about the fundamentalism and exclusivism as to why their flavor of Abrham is right(er). You're inexplicably bringing up examples that are reinforcing my entire point. Weird flex.

Would different factions still war over 'something', assuredly. But religion has given them a direct avenue to reject perceived outsiders and commit atrocities, literally in its name. It's not an excuse - it's a faith-based reason that is at the very heart of religion.

Your arguments are based on your subjective perceptions. My argument is based on the fact that the hijackers were screaming Allahu Akbar! as they flew 737's into the twin towers.

 

[LouderVol]

I wasn't speaking of loathing "me". It was a generality - in that all faith-based religions will find common ground in despising the non-believer.

And I'm using 9-11 as a microcosm example of why you're unequivocally wrong. You can't refute what I'm saying but you keep doubling down a nonsensical argument that sunni's and shiites would be fighting over something else if it weren't for religion.

Pay attention here. They aren't fighting abut something else. They are fighting about the fundamentalism and exclusivism as to why their flavor of Abrham is right(er). You're inexplicably bringing up examples that are reinforcing my entire point. Weird flex.

Would different factions still war over 'something', assuredly. But religion has given them a direct avenue to reject perceived outsiders and commit atrocities, literally in its name. It's not an excuse - it's a faith-based reason that is at the very heart of religion.

Your arguments are based on your subjective perceptions. My argument is based on the fact that the hijackers were screaming Allahu Akbar! as they flew 737's into the twin towers.

sure they are fighting about other stuff. you really think they just roll up, kill each other, then leave? No taking resources, women, land?

just because the guy swinging the sword/flying the plane believes one thing doesn't explain the whole war/conflict. leaders have been lying to their people about why they are fighting for forever. religious leaders or causes are no different.

its at the very heart of the people who use the religion to start/justify the war. its not at the heart of religion itself. thats why I am saying correlation vs causation. Christianity wasn't formed/founded to kill the Jews or the Muslims. sure that happens with it, but its not why it exists.

I guess you really think we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan to spread Democracy? that's what the troops said, just ignore whatever reason Bush or Cheney had.

humans can do plenty of "othering" outside of religion. its not unique to religion. othering doesn't exist solely because of religion. its not any worse because of religion. sure religion is another category, but the othering would exist without it. This may blow your mind but no culture is 100% set on just religion alone. removing religion wouldn't even change who fought on what side in most wars, let alone reduce the killing. plenty of other cultural reasons and ways to create the others that are needed.

 

[Septic]

sure they are fighting about other stuff. you really think they just roll up, kill each other, then leave? No taking resources, women, land?

just because the guy swinging the sword/flying the plane believes one thing doesn't explain the whole war/conflict. leaders have been lying to their people about why they are fighting for forever. religious leaders or causes are no different.

its at the very heart of the people who use the religion to start/justify the war. its not at the heart of religion itself. thats why I am saying correlation vs causation. Christianity wasn't formed/founded to kill the Jews or the Muslims. sure that happens with it, but its not why it exists.

I guess you really think we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan to spread Democracy? that's what the troops said, just ignore whatever reason Bush or Cheney had.

humans can do plenty of "othering" outside of religion. its not unique to religion. othering doesn't exist solely because of religion. its not any worse because of religion. sure religion is another category, but the othering would exist without it. This may blow your mind but no culture is 100% set on just religion alone. removing religion wouldn't even change who fought on what side in most wars, let alone reduce the killing. plenty of other cultural reasons and ways to create the others that are needed.

Clearly, we're talking past each other - you won't be convinced no matter how irrational it is to think that the root of Earths well documented history of religious violence has nothing to do with.... religion.

It's kind of wild to see someone who has usually been rational plant a flag on such a turd of an argument while believing they've discredited the root of fundamentalist religious exclusivism. You really think that religious competition can be boiled down to geopolitical resource hogging?

Your task to prove me wrong and shut me up was a simple one. Find a common thread between the 9-11 hijackers that doesn't lead back to radicalized Islam.

If you can do that, I will be the first to offer my apology and say that I was wrong.

 

[PKT_VOL]

your first paragraph is a solid argument against science too. I think most people reject the type of nihilism you are presenting outside of absolute knowledge.

Meaning is purely based on the individual. for some it may just be myth, or just oral tradition, something to pass along at the fire. Others may consider it a faith as just a function of culture, while others make it a deep core "truth" of their personhood. or anything in between. you can't deny if something has meaning to others just because you have questions, or if there are unanswered questions. We accept science even though it doesn't have all the answers either.

just because there are disproven "sciences" out there, doesn't mean that there isn't actually a "true science" out there. just because some scientists disagree with others doesn't mean that everyone is wrong, or the idea of science is illogical.

Geocentrism isn't mentioned in the creation story. it comes up elsewhere, but you are conflating issues. it also doesn't say that there is no life outside of our planet, it only specifically mentioned life on earth.

again if you are going with your absolutism about creation and going back to whatever the first thing/energy/event/time, sure the bible doesn't fit it. but that was never the point of the bible. the creation story is about how we came to be under God, and it does a great job with that, again considering it was oral tradition from a stone age civilization.

Backing out a little to a 40,000 foot view, you have various religious organizations/groups/individuals claiming to have special knowledge of ontology/spirituality/morality/theology obtained directly from the creator of the universe. That is an utterly incredible claim which would have certain expected correlating characteristics which naturally accompany such a claim. Hell, the messiah was expected to perform miracles to validate the lofty claim of being the messiah.

Thus, when those who claim to have special knowledge of ontology/spirituality/morality/theology obtained directly from the creator of the universe champion faulty ideas that are tangential to ontology/spirituality/morality/theology, it is reasonable, if not expected, that their special knowledge claim justifiably ceases to have any meaning.

 

[PKT_VOL]

It does if you start quoting it as having the same authority as scripture. Just like Christians read the works of the Church Father’s from the generation after the apostles. They give a lot of insight and guidance; but they are seen as not authoritative.

If only Christians treated a certain theologian after Jesus and the apostles that way...

 

[LouderVol]

Clearly, we're talking past each other - you won't be convinced no matter how irrational it is to think that the root of Earths well documented history of religious violence has nothing to do with.... religion.

It's kind of wild to see someone who has usually been rational plant a flag on such a turd of an argument while believing they've discredited the root of fundamentalist religious exclusivism. You really think that religious competition can be boiled down to geopolitical resource hogging?

Your task to prove me wrong and shut me up was a simple one. Find a common thread between the 9-11 hijackers that doesn't lead back to radicalized Islam.

If you can do that, I will be the first to offer my apology and say that I was wrong.

the RELIGIOUS part of RELIGIOUS violence has something to do with people USING religion. but the RELIGIOUS part of the RELIGIOUS violence is not the main factor in their being violence.

I can point to wars about resources/power that involve different religions, that didn't have a major religious reason.

you can not point to a so called religious war that did not have a major resource/power aspect. if religion is the cause, surely you can point me towards one. I have plenty of examples of mine.

I can give you a common thread between the hijackers and the CIA. I have given you a common thread between our involvement in the region and the hijackers. I have given you a common thread from our proxy wars on communism and the hijackers. just because you find a link doesn't mean it caused it.

 

[Septic]

the RELIGIOUS part of RELIGIOUS violence has something to do with people USING religion. but the RELIGIOUS part of the RELIGIOUS violence is not the main factor in their being violence.

I can point to wars about resources/power that involve different religions, that didn't have a major religious reason.

you can not point to a so called religious war that did not have a major resource/power aspect. if religion is the cause, surely you can point me towards one. I have plenty of examples of mine.

I can give you a common thread between the hijackers and the CIA. I have given you a common thread between our involvement in the region and the hijackers. I have given you a common thread from our proxy wars on communism and the hijackers. just because you find a link doesn't mean it caused it.

You're a Catholic? The Pope could use your insight - clearly he doesn't have his finger on the pulse of religious intolerance like you do. He'll be happy to hear it's no big thing.

Pope Francis and Indonesia imam call for unity against religious violence

Religious leaders meet at Istiqlal Mosque and sign declaration calling for ‘religious harmony for the sake of humanity’.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[VOLLeeann]

religion is divisive

Septic, explain to us, considering the American beloved and time-honoured ideal of the separation of church and state, that this discussion about the Holy Trinity is pertinent to politics (forum)?

 

[Orangeslice13]

Septic, explain to us, considering the American beloved and time-honoured ideal of the separation of church and state, that this discussion about the Holy Trinity is pertinent to politics (forum)?

Have you ever heard of the separation of church and state being a political conversation?

 

[tdawgs]

I’ll be back to this.
Not a short answer

Hebrews chapters 9 &10 the direction you may be going? I know my previous post was short in summary. I am very interested in your answers and understanding.

 

[LouderVol]

You're a Catholic? The Pope could use your insight - clearly he doesn't have his finger on the pulse of religious intolerance like you do. He'll be happy to hear it's no big thing.

Pope Francis and Indonesia imam call for unity against religious violence

Religious leaders meet at Istiqlal Mosque and sign declaration calling for ‘religious harmony for the sake of humanity’.

www.aljazeera.com

and if you listen to the pope for more than just sound bites, you realize he calls for unity/harmony in more than just religious violence.

the violence is the issue, not the religion associated with it. which is why he, a Catholic, is working with a Muslim Imam. if it was just religion as the problem as you push, neither side would be calling out their own violence, nor would they be "working across the aisle".

 

[Orangeslice13]

the sins of the world. He who knew no sin became sin for us. His death gave victory over sin and the grave (eternal separation from God). His blood sacrifice accomplished what the blood of bulls and goats could not(OT) ?

I’m actually writing the response on a note and editing it down so it’s not a dissertation.
Congratulations on picking a damn near impossible question to short answer.

 

[me_grag53]

You’re still missing the point. Sacrifice was never for forgiveness. Repentance /asking for forgiveness is how sins were forgiven. Messiah was often called the Passover lamb. Do Christians even know what the Passover lamb was for? It wasn’t for forgiveness.

Atonement is a completely different thing.

As for how your sins were forgiven before messiah.

Psalms 86
Be gracious to me, Lord,
For I call upon You all day long.
4 Make the soul of Your servant joyful,
For to You, Lord, I lift up my soul.
5 For You, Lord, are good, and ready to forgive,
And abundant in mercy to all who call upon You.
6 Listen, Lord, to my prayer;
And give Your attention to the sound of my pleading!
7 On the day of my trouble I will call upon You,
For You will answer me.
8 There is no one like You among the gods, Lord,

Psalms 25

16 Turn to me and be gracious to me,
For I am lonely and afflicted.
17 [k]The troubles of my heart are enlarged;
Bring me out of my distresses.
18 Look at my misery and my trouble,
And forgive all my sins.

Psalms 65

You who hear prayer,
To You all [b]mankind comes.
3 [c]Wrongdoings prevail against me;
As for our offenses, You [d]forgive them.

Just like they are now.
You have to ask and repent.