Holy Trinity Discussion

[Orangeslice13]

Cornwell. Maybe

 

[OrangeTsar]

In the beginning was the word of G-d. His law and by that law everything was made. And nothing was made without that law. The representative of that law became flesh and endeavor to make that law clear to those who had ears to hear.

What makes the G-d of A,I, and J, and Messiah whom he sent, different than all others is that law. And as He said everything rests on the law. In science we call those things constants. The law of Gravity is an example. They are things that just happen but without those constants life could not exist.

You still think the law isn’t important anymore

Interesting to say the least.

The law is VERY important. As Paul says, without the law, we would be unaware of our need for God.
The law cannot provide salvation unless you keep every single requirement every day of your entire life. The law can only condemn.

 

[bamawriter]

Actually it doesn’t. It runs a foul of tradition on both sides. But as scripture….not so much

I can't find any sources from any Christian denomination that have called Enoch heretical. It's simply considered ahistorical and not sacred.

Perhaps you're aware of some historical record that suggests a controversy over the book, but I'm not. It seems to have simply fallen out of the public consciousness. There's no record of it even being discussed at the Council of Rome.

Enoch is a really interesting piece of Jewish literature, and it sheds some light on how theology was ebbing and flowing during the 400 Years of Silence. Many of the early Church fathers were aware of it, though opinions varied.

Personally, I don't see the big deal. Maybe if it had more than a two verse quotation in the least discussed book of the New Testament I'd have a different perspective.

 

[me_grag53]

That doesn’t really help.
If I don’t understand your thought processes then posting random scripture won’t clear anything up

Forget about me, it is the scriptures that are important. Jesus called God his Father. What does the scriptures say was the priests response? The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived. Born of the Spirit. Again , Jesus said God was his Father. Most all translations of John 10:30 say "I and my (the Father)Father are one.
The mystery of the Godhead

1 Timothy 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.​

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.​

 

[LouderVol]

Lazy is trying to downplay the genocide of tens of millions throughout history. What was the reason a few jets flew into the World Trade Center?

I think part of the issue is that Christians can't stand to be lumped into the same category with Muslims. In my eye's, you're not really all that different.

planes went into the towers because the US meddled in other's affairs. It has very little to do with religion, come on you are better than this.

I am not belittling the wrongs of the Christians. The Crusades are at least as bad as anything the Muslims have done. The Inquisition would probably be worse. but if you think the only force behind those movements were purely religious/theological I have a bridge to sell you. Its a pretty well known fact that the Catholic CHurch wanted to play king maker, and create their own empire. not because of non-believers, but because it was filled with second sons who were easily corrupted and wanted power for themselves equal to the what the first sons inherited from their parents.

the protestant reformation started out as a theological issue, but sides were chosen on almost purely political levels. If your rival family was devout Catholic, you became protestant. if your neighboring country was protestant, a great way to build support to fight them was to push the Catholic angle. you were still fighting over lands, titles, power, control, with religious window dressing.

I imagine its been the same amongst all the religions. The Sunnis and Shiites disputes go back before Islam was even a thing.

look at history sense we have gotten more secular, the bloodiest conflicts in our history had nothing to do with religion.

 

[GVF]

You’re still missing the point. Sacrifice was never for forgiveness. Repentance /asking for forgiveness is how sins were forgiven. Messiah was often called the Passover lamb. Do Christians even know what the Passover lamb was for? It wasn’t for forgiveness.

Atonement is a completely different thing.

As for how your sins were forgiven before messiah.

Psalms 86
Be gracious to me, Lord,
For I call upon You all day long.
4 Make the soul of Your servant joyful,
For to You, Lord, I lift up my soul.
5 For You, Lord, are good, and ready to forgive,
And abundant in mercy to all who call upon You.
6 Listen, Lord, to my prayer;
And give Your attention to the sound of my pleading!
7 On the day of my trouble I will call upon You,
For You will answer me.
8 There is no one like You among the gods, Lord,

Psalms 25

16 Turn to me and be gracious to me,
For I am lonely and afflicted.
17 [k]The troubles of my heart are enlarged;
Bring me out of my distresses.
18 Look at my misery and my trouble,
And forgive all my sins.

Psalms 65

You who hear prayer,
To You all [b]mankind comes.
3 [c]Wrongdoings prevail against me;
As for our offenses, You [d]forgive them.

Just like they are now.
You have to ask and repent.

Passover Lamb was for protection from death angel. All in the house with lambs blood on the doorposts were spared.

 

[GVF]

I prefer original in regards to religion as I am practicing the way Messiah and the 12 did.

It’s funny to my cousins I used to call myself “mud blood” as my mother is French/Native American but now I go with the more modern “Jew-ish”.

I would call myself original as well. Except of course for traditional Jewish observances that may have accompanied some early Jewish Christians blended observances. Not all "jews" maintained some traditional observances when they became christians in the early church. Not all early church christians were jewish and didn't have those traditions. I think if you recognize and accept the christian side of it that hte Messiah gave us, I can't say it's a fault to maintain some traditional observences as well. You do alot of the same things I do as a CoC participant, and you have things that are historical for you to observe that you like to honor. I see no issues with that personally. You accepted salvation the way God intended when he sent Messiah. That's the important factor in any of our choices.

 

[Orangeslice13]

The law is VERY important. As Paul says, without the law, we would be unaware of our need for God.
The law cannot provide salvation unless you keep every single requirement every day of your entire life. The law can only condemn.

He said you would not know what sin was.
The law never provided salvation. Faith has always been the mechanism for salvation. The law is a blessing and a curse…..that’s what scripture says. It’s eternal and never ending. That’s what scripture says. It’s still the definition of sin….thats what scripture says…and Paul says. In fact Paul asks if we should break the law so that grace will be more abundant, heaven forbid.

I get that Christians have been taught a bunch of lies. Messiah offers a stern warning to those who think they are Christian and practice lawlessness. What happens to those people?

 

[Orangeslice13]

I can't find any sources from any Christian denomination that have called Enoch heretical. It's simply considered ahistorical and not sacred.

Perhaps you're aware of some historical record that suggests a controversy over the book, but I'm not. It seems to have simply fallen out of the public consciousness. There's no record of it even being discussed at the Council of Rome.

Enoch is a really interesting piece of Jewish literature, and it sheds some light on how theology was ebbing and flowing during the 400 Years of Silence. Many of the early Church fathers were aware of it, though opinions varied.

Personally, I don't see the big deal. Maybe if it had more than a two verse quotation in the least discussed book of the New Testament I'd have a different perspective.

Have that conversation with any “educated “ Christian preacher. They are absolutely taught that Enoch isn’t scripture and use all the reasoning that should exclude Hebrews.

 

[Septic]

planes went into the towers because the US meddled in other's affairs. It has very little to do with religion, come on you are better than this.

I am not belittling the wrongs of the Christians. The Crusades are at least as bad as anything the Muslims have done. The Inquisition would probably be worse. but if you think the only force behind those movements were purely religious/theological I have a bridge to sell you. Its a pretty well known fact that the Catholic CHurch wanted to play king maker, and create their own empire. not because of non-believers, but because it was filled with second sons who were easily corrupted and wanted power for themselves equal to the what the first sons inherited from their parents.

the protestant reformation started out as a theological issue, but sides were chosen on almost purely political levels. If your rival family was devout Catholic, you became protestant. if your neighboring country was protestant, a great way to build support to fight them was to push the Catholic angle. you were still fighting over lands, titles, power, control, with religious window dressing.

I imagine its been the same amongst all the religions. The Sunnis and Shiites disputes go back before Islam was even a thing.

look at history sense we have gotten more secular, the bloodiest conflicts in our history had nothing to do with religion.

Al-Qaeda would be amused at your naivete.

Again, I'm not going to debate your whitewashing of atrocities committed in the name of religion.

Though, I am looking forward to your attempt to gaslight us into believing that America's war on terror in the middle east was against a biker gang and not a radicalized Islamist group.

 

[GVF]

The only school the matters.
The University of Tennessee

Degrees in psychology with studies in philosophy and religion.

And I build stuff for a living.

Well... If you had been an actual Jew by definition, you'd have been a banker or a jew-eler.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Forget about me, it is the scriptures that are important. Jesus called God his Father. What does the scriptures say was the priests response? The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived. Born of the Spirit. Again , Jesus said God was his Father. Most all translations of John 10:30 say "I and my (the Father)Father are one.
The mystery of the Godhead

1 Timothy 3:16​

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.​

Colossians 2:9​

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.​

I still have no idea what point you’re trying to make here.
The point is that the translation puts serious doubt on interpretation. You can be just as wrong as the priests of the day who we’re trying to eliminate messiah because he was a threat to their power.

We’ve covered you verses at length so let me ask you a question. If Jesus is G-d, can Jesus have a G-d?

 

[Orangeslice13]

Passover Lamb was for protection from death angel. All in the house with lambs blood on the doorposts were spared.

Correct.
So what does that mean in relation to Jesus and the law?
We established that
-salvation is and has always been by believing G-d. (Faith/repentance) for those who seek it of G-d
-Jesus says that the law doesn’t pass until heaven and earth pass away
-Paul says that you don’t know what sin is without the law.

Here’s a big hint.
What does Paul saw was taken away and nailed to the cross?
(It wasn’t the law.)

What did Jesus do that made him the Passover lamb?

 

[LouderVol]

Al-Qaeda would be amused at your naivete.

Again, I'm not going to debate your whitewashing of atrocities committed in the name of religion.

Though, I am looking forward to your attempt to gaslight us into believing that America's war on terror in the middle east was against a biker gang and not a radicalized Islamist group.

first, how did I white wash the atrocities? I said the Catholic church was responsible for the worst actions of the two. you clearly aren't reading what I am saying and are just trolling.

the same al qaeda that we funded against the Russians?

we made ourselves the target because we were involved all over the middle east. the middle east could have been filled with Christians, and our same involvement would have generated similar results.

we aren't the boogie many because we are quasi-Christian nation. we are the boogie man because we keep effing with our people.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I would call myself original as well. Except of course for traditional Jewish observances that may have accompanied some early Jewish Christians blended observances. Not all "jews" maintained some traditional observances when they became christians in the early church. Not all early church christians were jewish and didn't have those traditions. I think if you recognize and accept the christian side of it that hte Messiah gave us, I can't say it's a fault to maintain some traditional observences as well. You do alot of the same things I do as a CoC participant, and you have things that are historical for you to observe that you like to honor. I see no issues with that personally. You accepted salvation the way God intended when he sent Messiah. That's the important factor in any of our choices.

Traditional?
You mean the things G-d called forever?

Things Jesus and the 12 never did

-Easter
-Christmas
-Sunday church
-baptism required salvation.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Well... If you had been an actual Jew by definition, you'd have been a banker or a jew-eler.

it’s an interesting thing….do you know why Jews become bankers?

I do like Jew-eler. Being Jew-ish (by the current accepted definition) I found humor in that.

 

[Orangeslice13]

first, how did I white wash the atrocities? I said the Catholic church was responsible for the worst actions of the two. you clearly aren't reading what I am saying and are just trolling.

the same al qaeda that we funded against the Russians?

we made ourselves the target because we were involved all over the middle east. the middle east could have been filled with Christians, and our same involvement would have generated similar results.

we aren't the boogie many because we are quasi-Christian nation. we are the boogie man because we keep effing with our people.

It’s like trying to force our ideals onto others has had negative consequences for some reason

 

[LouderVol]

Traditional?
You mean the things G-d called forever?

Things Jesus and the 12 never did

-Easter
-Christmas
-Sunday church
-baptism required salvation.

how would they have done Easter? I guess it depends on what you mean by "doing" it.
his crucifiction and return to life was definitely a big thing that they made note of.

they certainly did the equivalent of "church". it wasn't fixed to Sunday tradition because they were traveling to remote communities and would have celebrated their faith whenever it was possible. and its impossible for something new to be tradition. all of the letters were establishing different practices, traditions, beliefs, just like a church service does.

 

[LouderVol]

it’s an interesting thing….do you know why Jews become bankers?

I do like Jew-eler. Being Jew-ish (by the current accepted definition) I found humor in that.

which time/nation?

 

[GVF]

He said you would not know what sin was.
The law never provided salvation. Faith has always been the mechanism for salvation. The law is a blessing and a curse…..that’s what scripture says. It’s eternal and never ending. That’s what scripture says. It’s still the definition of sin….thats what scripture says…and Paul says. In fact Paul asks if we should break the law so that grace will be more abundant, heaven forbid.

I get that Christians have been taught a bunch of lies. Messiah offers a stern warning to those who think they are Christian and practice lawlessness. What happens to those people?

But...Faith without repsonse is just an idea really.

I have faith that there is gas at the pump. But, if I don't act on that faith, my tank stays empty. (I'm not talking about works. We know works alone are not a vehicle to God in the afterlife).

With Faith must come a repsonse. An acceptance of Salvation. An symbolic act of that acceptance. A committment to receive God cause you know you only have perfection with Him.

"Come unto me all ye that labor and I will give you rest."

"See, here is water, what hindereth me from being baptized. And they went down into the water and he was baptized."

"Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day."

 

[GVF]

Correct.
So what does that mean in relation to Jesus and the law?
We established that
-salvation is and has always been by believing G-d. (Faith/repentance) for those who seek it of G-d
-Jesus says that the law doesn’t pass until heaven and earth pass away
-Paul says that you don’t know what sin is without the law.

Here’s a big hint.
What does Paul saw was taken away and nailed to the cross?
(It wasn’t the law.)

What did Jesus do that made him the Passover lamb?

Jeus provided his blood as the one time sacrifice for all time to wash away sin. The periodic passover lamb would no longer be needed.

 

[GVF]

it’s an interesting thing….do you know why Jews become bankers?

I do like Jew-eler. Being Jew-ish (by the current accepted definition) I found humor in that.

Thought you might. You're not all sharp teeth.

 

[OrangeTsar]

it’s an interesting thing….do you know why Jews become bankers?

I do like Jew-eler. Being Jew-ish (by the current accepted definition) I found humor in that.

Because they were excluded from almost all of the trade guilds in Middle Ages Europe. They started taking the only careers open to them and then it got passed down to succeeding generations. Same to a lesser extent with entertainment and academia. You work the jobs you can get.

 

[LouderVol]

Because they were excluded from almost all of the trade guilds in Middle Ages Europe. They started taking the only careers open to them and then it got passed down to succeeding generations. Same to a lesser extent with entertainment and academia. You work the jobs you can get.

loaning money was also banned by the Church, especially if it carried interest. but jews were immune to that.

 

[me_grag53]

I still have no idea what point you’re trying to make here.
The point is that the translation puts serious doubt on interpretation. You can be just as wrong as the priests of the day who we’re trying to eliminate messiah because he was a threat to their power.

We’ve covered you verses at length so let me ask you a question. If Jesus is G-d, can Jesus have a G-d?

John 1 Orthodox Jewish Bible