15 Mind-Blowing Facts About Wealth And Inequality In America

#26
#26
Causes of the Great Depression In the 1920's American economic policy was laissez faire. Businesses were left alone and for sometime things appeared to fine. American businesses reported record profits, production was at an all time high. The problem was that while earnings rose and the rich got richer, the working class received a disproportionally lower percentage of the wealth. This uneven distribution of wealth got so bad that 5% of America earned 33% of the income. What this meant was that there was less and less real spending. Despite the fact that the working class had less money to spend businesses continued to increase production levels.

so poor business management was an issue. Do you buy that the working class actually had less money to spend? Does that make sense at all or is that wordsmithing to make a point? Does it mean that less money was actually spent? Notice how the author, trying his or her hardest to make the class warfare point actually couldn't say that. Strange, no?

Purchasing dropped internationally as well. Since Europe was in a depression people there weren't buying as much as businesses had estimated. Then the Fordney McCumber Tariff and the Hawley Smoot Tariff raised tariff levels to as much as 40%. Europe which was already angered at US foreign actions responded with high tariffs of their own. International trade was at a standstill.

The international tariff business was senseless, but it's the exact jingoism that was driving the OP's point and that you chimed in upon. By the way, was the European depression caused by US disjointed incomes?

At this point you should be asking the question "If no one buying and companies were increasing production levels, wasn't there going to be a problem?" BINGO!!! The problem is known as overproduction. American businesses were producing far more than could be consumed. The result was lost profits and eventually debts. After a while many companies went out of business. Why would these companies continue to overproduce? There are several reasons. Some were managed poorly. Others were part of holding companies that placed layers and layers of companies, each relying on the others production levels like a pyramid. If one company in the pyramid reported lower production levels the others fell off and it looked bad. In many cases however crooked company owners reported earnings that were higher than they were actually were in order to drive up the stock price.


I never made an argument for wider margin as a reason for outsourcing. You must have me confused with someone else. My argument was that loss of jobs due to outsourcing would eventually come back to haunt those companies practicing it in the form of lower sales due to loss of middle class purchasing power.

Please. You absolutely argued that wider margin is the driver in saying that the wealthy are taking on a larger pile of income from doing business. Say it however you'd like, but that's the gist of the point or it wouldn't be cloaked in this silliness about the workers getting screwed.

If my facts are faulty as you imply, blame UT for that is where I received my Masters Degree in US History, but you are a manager, you know more about history than I do.

What I know, is more economics than you and don't sell me short on the history.

It is documented historical fact that low wages resulting in little purchasing power helped bring about the depression. It let to overproduction because units were not being moved from warehouses causing huge overhead costs.

No it isn't. Limited demand was what prolonged the issues because folks began hording money and businesses closed en masse, generating huge unemployment. To pretend it was this income gap that drove the world South is simply not true. Incomes didn't go down and the population grew. Aggregate demand actually increased leading up to the Depression. You can read every history text in the history of the world and it's not going to make the bent of scholarly authors revert to reality. You're still going to get the ivory tower bent on everything because they get to speak in generalities and ignore the actual facts behind what was happening.

Small business is an integral part in our economy. However, if the US citizen lacks the power to buy products, everyone suffers.

again, arguing that American citizens lack the power to buy products is preposterous when aggregate demand isn't falling and real incomes remain generally steady. Just makes no sense, unless you want to look at it in the context of broad sweeping generalities that ignore the realities of the actual economy.

It it illogical to think the Americans can continue to fuel the economy by purchasing if their jobs continue to be outsourced at current rates.

Our economy, and every other developed economy has regularly transitioned to a new driver. If ours finds one, it will move forward. If not, we won't find a way to remain a global economic power. It's the reality of constant progress. It's not going to stop because we want to make it OK for our deteriorating work force to make what their parents think they're worth.

Everyone including the companies themselves will suffer. One main ingredient that separates our economic system from communism or fascism (both failed concepts) is the existence of a viable middle class that provides the fuel and greases the gears to our economic engine. The engine (small businesses) that you refer to is as useless as teats on a boar hog if it doesn't have fuel (middle class) to run it.
See Bold.

What separates our economy is a world class financial system that allows capital to find good ideas, mix in some hard work and risk to generate a product that provides a value proposition to consumers. Entrepreneurs in spades helps as well. The class warfare rhetoric has done nothing to make our economy work - ever.
 
#27
#27
See Bold.

What separates our economy is a world class financial system that allows capital to find good ideas, mix in some hard work and risk to generate a product that provides a value proposition to consumers. Entrepreneurs in spades helps as well. The class warfare rhetoric has done nothing to make our economy work - ever.

you must not have paid attention, JayVols has a degree in history from UT and is therefore smarter than you.
 
#28
#28
the first step should be to get rid of all labor unions
Labor unions have their problems just like any other endeavor. But to do away with them? Nah. I know they brought such egregious concepts such as vacation, health benefits, decent wages, safety in the workplace, helping rid robber barons practice of using 8 yr old children to work in coal mines. With a record like that, it's a wonder anyone would want them to exist. If you think ANYTHING on this Earth is all good or all evil, you are mistaken.
 
#29
#29
Labor unions have their problems just like any other endeavor. But to do away with them? Nah. I know they brought such egregious concepts such as vacation, health benefits, decent wages, safety in the workplace, helping rid robber barons practice of using 8 yr old children to work in coal mines. With a record like that, it's a wonder anyone would want them to exist. If you think ANYTHING on this Earth is all good or all evil, you are mistaken.

The Model T was sweet, too, in it's day. Now that it has outlived its usefulness, the best place to find it is in a museum.

The unions that destroyed our auto, airline and education industries need to be done away with at the soonest possible second. That said, they are, via natural selection, cutting their own throats as we speak. Interesting that they are a stalwart in a thread about American employee wage growth problems.
 
#30
#30
Labor unions have their problems just like any other endeavor. But to do away with them? Nah. I know they brought such egregious concepts such as vacation, health benefits, decent wages, safety in the workplace, helping rid robber barons practice of using 8 yr old children to work in coal mines. With a record like that, it's a wonder anyone would want them to exist. If you think ANYTHING on this Earth is all good or all evil, you are mistaken.

All those benefits the union brought the average American worker are ancient relics left over from the past. There was a time when unions were needed and had the average working Americans interest in mind, they left that road long ago.
 
#31
#31
Labor unions have their problems just like any other endeavor. But to do away with them? Nah. I know they brought such egregious concepts such as vacation, health benefits, decent wages, safety in the workplace, helping rid robber barons practice of using 8 yr old children to work in coal mines. With a record like that, it's a wonder anyone would want them to exist. If you think ANYTHING on this Earth is all good or all evil, you are mistaken.

so you think that if labor unions just went away overnight there would be 8 year olds going back to work in the coal mines?

unions have long since outlived their usefulness. If you honestly think that a group of thugs like the SEIU actually represents the interests of individual employees, you're the one who's mistaken.
 
#32
#32
The Model T was sweet, too, in it's day. Now that it has outlived its usefulness, the best place to find it is in a museum.

The unions that destroyed our auto, airline and education industries need to be done away with at the soonest possible second. That said, they are, via natural selection, cutting their own throats as we speak. Interesting that they are a stalwart in a thread about American employee wage growth problems.

Ah Social Darwinist, I see. explains everything. I agree that greed in the auto unions have caused many problems. I am not saying unions are perfect. All you have to do is study the Guilded Age's robber barons (Carnegie, Rockefeller, Pullman, etc) to see what unchecked business can do. Sorry, but I dont trust most people to do the right thing if no one is watching. But the Model T example is a bad one because the automobile was not done away with. It evolved. I will disagree with you on all these points (thinking that middle class purchasing power has nothing to do with our economic success). We will agree to disagree I guess.
 
#33
#33
The unions will never relinquish their stranglehold, they are a political force now with major influence in government. In order to keep that influence they need their bread winners to keep funneling them money.

The same can be said for the corporate lobby.
 
#35
#35
Ah Social Darwinist, I see. explains everything. I agree that greed in the auto unions have caused many problems. I am not saying unions are perfect. All you have to do is study the Guilded Age's robber barons (Carnegie, Rockefeller, Pullman, etc) to see what unchecked business can do. Sorry, but I dont trust most people to do the right thing if no one is watching. But the Model T example is a bad one because the automobile was not done away with. It evolved. I will disagree with you on all these points (thinking that middle class purchasing power has nothing to do with our economic success). We will agree to disagree I guess.

I'm not remotely advocating social darwinism. I said they're practicing it.

I don't disagree that aggregate purchasing power matters, but to pretend it diminished over the silliness of drawing lines between social classes is silly. All of the banter about the destruction of our middle class is simply transparent class warfare. Pitting the have nots, which in any system, by any measure, are going to be the vast majority, against the haves is age old money raising, vote buying, rioter incensing gibberish.
 
#36
#36
The same can be said for the corporate lobby.

the huge difference being that one pays an enormous pile of taxes via provision of goods and services to our economy, while the other simply siphons off that "dwindling" middle class income stream as pure frictional expense. Other than that small tidbit, they're exactly the same.
 
#37
#37
Too much blame has been attributed to the Bush tax cuts. Yes, we are living in a society that has transformed into a second Gilded age to an extent, but that wasn't Bush's nor congress' fault. America has shifted away from innovation and hard-work to general laziness and ignorance. Attempting to redistribute income because of assumed vertical equity would be a disaster in the current economic climate.

It is a product of our political climate. Many advocating large increases in marginal rates for the top bracket, essentially believe that most of the lower brackets are there because of misfortune and are trying to climb the ladder. Of course the other side believes that the lowest brackets are bums who are there for a reason. Obviously both can be applicable, but generally speaking most in the top bracket are there for a reason.
 
#38
#38
Ah Social Darwinist, I see. explains everything. I agree that greed in the auto unions have caused many problems. I am not saying unions are perfect. All you have to do is study the Guilded Age's robber barons (Carnegie, Rockefeller, Pullman, etc) to see what unchecked business can do. Sorry, but I dont trust most people to do the right thing if no one is watching. But the Model T example is a bad one because the automobile was not done away with. It evolved. I will disagree with you on all these points (thinking that middle class purchasing power has nothing to do with our economic success). We will agree to disagree I guess.

you can't seriously argue that employers have the same pricing power for labor that they did in the 1900s. And no that's not because of the unions, that's because of technology.
 
#39
#39
Too much blame has been attributed to the Bush tax cuts. Yes, we are living in a society that has transformed into a second Gilded age, but that wasn't Bush's nor congress' fault. America has shifted away from innovation and hard-work to general laziness and ignorance. Attempting to redistribute income because of assumed vertical equity would be a disaster in the current economic climate.

It is a product of our political climate. Many advocating large increases in marginal rates for the top bracket, essentially believe that most of the lower brackets are there because of misfortune and are trying to climb the ladder. Of course the other side believes that the lowest brackets are bums who are there for a reason. Obviously both can be applicable, but generally speaking most in the top bracket are there for a reason.

I don't there is any debate to this. Laziness has eventually doomed all great civilizations as they rested on their laurels. One need look no further than this to understand wages now only growing with CPI. We simply can't justify paying more for the quality of the output.

Don't disagree with the second paragraph, but the bums comment is probably overdone. The ones doing the loudest griping are typically the bums - votebuying politicians or folks wanting more for less.

Just can't stand the class separation debate since it's political to its very core and provides nothing of value to the analysis.
 
#40
#40
Too much blame has been attributed to the Bush tax cuts. Yes, we are living in a society that has transformed into a second Gilded age to an extent, but that wasn't Bush's nor congress' fault. America has shifted away from innovation and hard-work to general laziness and ignorance. Attempting to redistribute income because of assumed vertical equity would be a disaster in the current economic climate.

It is a product of our political climate. Many advocating large increases in marginal rates for the top bracket, essentially believe that most of the lower brackets are there because of misfortune and are trying to climb the ladder. Of course the other side believes that the lowest brackets are bums who are there for a reason. Obviously both can be applicable, but generally speaking most in the top bracket are there for a reason.
Nicely put.
 
#41
#41
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#43
#43
so poor business management was an issue. Do you buy that the working class actually had less money to spend? Does that make sense at all or is that wordsmithing to make a point? Does it mean that less money was actually spent? Notice how the author, trying his or her hardest to make the class warfare point actually couldn't say that. Strange, no?
Ok, I'll try to explain this as I know it. Companies continued to overproduce. Many of them borrowing the money in an effort to capitalize on the boom time of the 1920's. The amount of debt caused inflation, diminishing everyone's buying power. It just hit the working class harder because wages were stagnant and didn't keep up with the rate of inflation. The author didn't directly bring this point out, but it is how it went down.

The international tariff business was senseless, but it's the exact jingoism that was driving the OP's point and that you chimed in upon. By the way, was the European depression caused by US disjointed incomes?
No. The European problem was different. Some of Europe's largest players were still trying to recover from the devastation of WWI. Germany was crushed under a mountain of war reparation debt, limiting their purchasing power. Britain and France were facing massive war debts themselves causing inflation. This is one reason Europe was so hesitant to stand up to Hitler when he was doing his whole 'unite the Greman speaking people' land grab manuver. Not to mention the the war helped to destroy many areas in France. The US was only in the war for roughly a year. We racked up debts, but nothing like the major European powers that were involved from 1914-1918.

Please. You absolutely argued that wider margin is the driver in saying that the wealthy are taking on a larger pile of income from doing business. Say it however you'd like, but that's the gist of the point or it wouldn't be cloaked in this silliness about the workers getting screwed.
I really was not making this point. I do think that those doing this at this time are cutting off their noses to spite their face. It will hurt them in the long run IMO. Workers DO bear some responsibility in this practice, however.

What I know, is more economics than you and don't sell me short on the history.
Sorry, I was kind of demeaning there. I am not like that & was not my intention. I can disagree respectfully and I try to behave that way. Didn't mean to sell you short, but don't sell me short on economics either...

No it isn't. Limited demand was what prolonged the issues because folks began hording money and businesses closed en masse, generating huge unemployment. To pretend it was this income gap that drove the world South is simply not true. Incomes didn't go down and the population grew. Aggregate demand actually increased leading up to the Depression. You can read every history text in the history of the world and it's not going to make the bent of scholarly authors revert to reality. You're still going to get the ivory tower bent on everything because they get to speak in generalities and ignore the actual facts behind what was happening.
The money hoarding was not done largely until the depression hit. When banks started failing (25% failure rate) due to overextension of credit, and people started to default on loans, people started taking their money out of the banks (exasperating the problem) did people start really hoarding money. It was not until FDR shut down the banks & inspected them allowing healthy banks to reopen did the run on the banks stop. The increased production and the inability for workers to buy these products is a documented fact.


again, arguing that American citizens lack the power to buy products is preposterous when aggregate demand isn't falling and real incomes remain generally steady. Just makes no sense, unless you want to look at it in the context of broad sweeping generalities that ignore the realities of the actual economy.
See inflation argument above in reference to Great Depression. If you are talking about today, those that are employed incomes may be steady, but not the unemployed, and their jobs are not coming back. Hope I'm wrong, but I don't think we have seen the worst part yet.



Our economy, and every other developed economy has regularly transitioned to a new driver. If ours finds one, it will move forward. If not, we won't find a way to remain a global economic power. It's the reality of constant progress. It's not going to stop because we want to make it OK for our deteriorating work force to make what their parents think they're worth.
No one will ever be paid what they think they are worth. My argument is if we totally convert away from a manufacturing economy, our security will suffer as well. Without the manufacturing base we had in WWII (auto industries mainly) and their ability to produce weapons of war quickly we lose that war. Now, we do have nukes to rely on, but so do others. Is completely wiping a country off the map and them doing the same to us a good trade? Is it really progress when we deteriorate economically?

I do not live in a delusional world that thinks that big business is the root of all our problems. Labor shares some of that burden as well. Until the sides quit their adversarial stances and start to work together to solve the problems, we all will be screwed. Have a good day & let's hope for a Vol win over the Gators.
 
#44
#44
Ah Social Darwinist, I see. explains everything. I agree that greed in the auto unions have caused many problems. I am not saying unions are perfect. All you have to do is study the Guilded Age's robber barons (Carnegie, Rockefeller, Pullman, etc) to see what unchecked business can do. Sorry, but I dont trust most people to do the right thing if no one is watching. But the Model T example is a bad one because the automobile was not done away with. It evolved. I will disagree with you on all these points (thinking that middle class purchasing power has nothing to do with our economic success). We will agree to disagree I guess.
wow. You're concerned about the spending power of middle america and you support unions at the same time. Might as well bow out of this thread bud.
 
#46
#46
I don't there is any debate to this. Laziness has eventually doomed all great civilizations as they rested on their laurels. One need look no further than this to understand wages now only growing with CPI. We simply can't justify paying more for the quality of the output.

Don't disagree with the second paragraph, but the bums comment is probably overdone. The ones doing the loudest griping are typically the bums - votebuying politicians or folks wanting more for less.

Just can't stand the class separation debate since it's political to its very core and provides nothing of value to the analysis.

I agree 100%.

In regards to your analysis -- yes, that is probably true. Most of the frequently heard voices are those who have damaged our society the most. But this is natural -- most people feel sorry for those on the lowest end, and at nature, we think that they are trying their hardest. No one feels sorry for the millionaire, even if his taxes are going through the roof. Society has transformed from one which admires wealth through hard-work to one which lusts for wealth while expecting none in return. It is in it's essence a large dilemma because of the question of whether the lowest brackets are there because of misfortune or general laziness. This is one of the biggest problems with the United States.

Millions of people in America expect to do nothing and to receive everything. Aid programs started with good intentions but has essentially turned into as you said.. vote-buying, and this is most common, in Urban areas, and I hate to say it but, Democratic areas.

But I have came to the conclusion that in principle -- most of those who are at the top bracket are there for a reason and in economic conditions such as now, penalizing those at the top would be a disaster in the making. No matter how much our President, and god love him.. says, the lowest brackets aren't going to push the United States through this recession. In an American utopia this might be the case, but expecting this to happen is plain ignorant, this isn't the America of the past.

I agree, the "vertical equity" is over-played. Paul Krugman has essentially turned away from actual economics to political-based diatribes -- it is rather disappointing.

Real economics has been perverted into political drivel.
 
#47
#47
you can't seriously argue that employers have the same pricing power for labor that they did in the 1900s. And no that's not because of the unions, that's because of technology.
Maybe not the same but a comparable one. Outsourcing with no consequences is a powerful tool.
 
#48
#48
Maybe not the same but a comparable one. Outsourcing with no consequences is a powerful tool.

why should there be adverse consequences for making a sound financial decision?

That said, I don't think there are many senior executives or company owners of guys big enough to head overseas who haven't been educated in the stakeholder approach to decision making.
 
#49
#49
Maybe not the same but a comparable one. Outsourcing with no consequences is a powerful tool.

i see so you think it's fair to compare outsourcing (which btw doesn't happen to competent employees) to railroad towns where the company owned the town, owned the goods provided there, and set the prices?
 
#50
#50
wow. You're concerned about the spending power of middle america and you support unions at the same time. Might as well bow out of this thread bud.
I was simply making the point that the unions have done some good as well.
 

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