3* teams versus 5* one and dones

[NighthawkVol]

When Barnes first arrived at Tennessee and signed the Bone/Williams class, I remember telling friends that he got a chance at a re-start at UT. It seemed to me that Barnes is a really good coach who knows how to build teams and fit different parts together. That’s his talent, just as it was for Bob Knight. Barnes did that at Providence, Clemson, and Texas. But in the latter part (post-KD) of his Texas tenure, his success fell off because, it seemed to me, he started signing a lot of one and dones and couldn’t play to his strength, which was molding true “teams.” Of course, the cache that KD gave him allowed him to sign those top recruits and that had to be tempting.

So, my point that I made to friends was, coming to Tennessee was a restart for him. And he took advantage of it with that Bone/Williams class. I was right. But for some awful officiating at the end of the Purdue game, that team should have made the Elite 8 and maybe Final 4. I thought it would continue because he’d learned to get back to what made him good.

But then, it seems, Barnes fell back into the same trap. His success with the Bone/Williams group allowed him to go sign 5*s again. So he did. He got JJJ, Keon, Jaden, Walker, KC, and BHH. Of course, I rationalized that it would be different this time than at the end of his Texas tenure because he’d mix in the stars with the chemistry guys.

But he seems to be repeating what happened at Texas. They don’t seem to have an identity…just a lot of individual talent. I’m not saying they’re selfish or anything. I just don’t think they have the chemistry that comes with playing multiple years together.

A few points about that:

-Fulkerson is a holdover from that class. He’s never seemed to fit in with the one and done freshmen. It’s always been, they succeed or he succeeds, but never both. He fits better with players like the Bone/Williams group in a team concept.

-Perhaps missing on so many top prospects in next year’s class with be a blessing in disguise. BJ is a 3-4 year PG as is ZZ. Go back and sign some more of those guys at SG, PF, etc. And with Mashack, Aidoo, Tamba, Diboundje, etc. as developmental guys, maybe we’re getting back to Barnes’ comfort zone. Hell, maybe, just maybe, he’s already recognized the problem.

-I mentioned Knight above. I don’t think he’d succeed with a bunch of one and dones. Some coaches can. But Knight wasn’t wired that way and I don’t think Barnes is, either. He needs to develop a basketball TEAM. Which is great, because I’d much rather watch that anyway.

 

[walkenvol]

Your point on Barnes maybe right. The comparison to Knight with 1&dones probably is off since Isiah Thomas was at Indiana from 79-81. This trend of the NBA drafting freshmen is a more recent trend. It doesn’t diminish the argument that having a core group who’ve been in your program 2-4 years may produce better results vs a group of more gifted players who are less seasoned.

 

[plumbervol]

I want to mention Kennedy Chandler vs KY's Washington. Washington was physically ready to play at this level. I am afraid KC is not.

 

[McCat]

I think we have seen that only 5* one and dones are far more inconsistent teams. Cal has embraced the transfer portal and grabbed some key proven college players. I think this is the new model.

 

[TheMookieMonster]

Outside of Chandler, pretty much every contributor on this team is a multi-year type of player, so I’m not exactly seeing the comparison. We’re laden with upperclassmen.

JJJ (Junior)
Santi (Junior)
Olivia (Junior)
Fulky (Super Senior)
Uros (Junior)
Bailey (Senior)

That’s six of our nine main rotation guys who are upperclassmen. And, then we have two guys in Powell and ZZ who are underclassmen and are definitely no threats to leaving soon.

I don’t think this is a case of Barnes using the “Kentucky” model. If it’s chemistry issues, it’s not because of the one-and-dones. It’s because we lack a true vocal leader on this court. Grant and Admiral were constantly commanding the court and being outspoken. Their personalities were a huge factor in our success. Fulky has been really quiet the past few years, and JJJ’s leadership style is a bit quieter and more reserved.

I don’t think the issue is 5* players. It’s that we have never been able to replicate the much needed leadership from our upperclassmen that Grant, Admiral, and even LaMonte would show each game.

 

[NighthawkVol]

Outside of Chandler, pretty much every contributor on this team is a multi-year type of player, so I’m not exactly seeing the comparison. We’re laden with upperclassmen.

JJJ (Junior)
Santi (Junior)
Olivia (Junior)
Fulky (Super Senior)
Uros (Junior)
Bailey (Senior)

That’s six of our nine main rotation guys who are upperclassmen. And, then we have two guys in Powell and ZZ who are underclassmen and are definitely no threats to leaving soon.

I don’t think this is a case of Barnes using the “Kentucky” model. If it’s chemistry issues, it’s not because of the one-and-dones. It’s because we lack a true vocal leader on this court. Grant and Admiral were constantly commanding the court and being outspoken. Their personalities were a huge factor in our success. Fulky has been really quiet the past few years, and JJJ’s leadership style is a bit quieter and more reserved.

I don’t think the issue is 5* players. It’s that we have never been able to replicate the much needed leadership from our upperclassmen that Grant, Admiral, and even LaMonte would show each game.

Great points. I don’t disagree. And while KC is the only one and done (although BHH is a possibility too, even without producing in college…such is modern basketball), your best players have to be your leaders. He’s Tennessee’s best player, but he’s not a leader yet. He probably would be in a year or two, but he’ll be gone.

 

[D3Athlete]

Outside of Chandler, pretty much every contributor on this team is a multi-year type of player, so I’m not exactly seeing the comparison. We’re laden with upperclassmen.

JJJ (Junior)
Santi (Junior)
Olivia (Junior)
Fulky (Super Senior)
Uros (Junior)
Bailey (Senior)

That’s six of our nine main rotation guys who are upperclassmen. And, then we have two guys in Powell and ZZ who are underclassmen and are definitely no threats to leaving soon.

I don’t think this is a case of Barnes using the “Kentucky” model. If it’s chemistry issues, it’s not because of the one-and-dones. It’s because we lack a true vocal leader on this court. Grant and Admiral were constantly commanding the court and being outspoken. Their personalities were a huge factor in our success. Fulky has been really quiet the past few years, and JJJ’s leadership style is a bit quieter and more reserved.

I don’t think the issue is 5* players. It’s that we have never been able to replicate the much needed leadership from our upperclassmen that Grant, Admiral, and even LaMonte would show each game.

Nail on the head with the last statement. The leadership on the court isn’t there. There is no top dawg out there to lead and push them when needed. Coaches can only do so much from the sideline. Now, I think zz or even Mashack has that mentality, just not in a position to show it.

 

[plumbervol]

Chandler bounces off of players when he tries to defend them, he is just not physical enough IMO. Texas Tech set the model to beat TN, physical basketball and TN cannot put anybody on the court to match up. LSU played physical as did KY. Our defenders bounced off of Washington

 

[mtvols]

You don’t turn away a 5 star recruit if you can get them. Especially an in state 5 star like Chandler, BHH, and Keon.

Our big issue is we have no in post scorer like we had with Grant. Time to play BHH and Aidoo and let them develop.

 

[cncchris33]

I think we have seen that only 5* one and dones are far more inconsistent teams. Cal has embraced the transfer portal and grabbed some key proven college players. I think this is the new model.

Say what you want about Cal's on-floor coaching, but he is a master of motivation and an absolute chameleon when it comes to the changing tides of roster construction. He has won many different ways and changed philosophies to do it. He isn't stuck in his ways. He was one of the first to embrace the OAD method and won a title doing it. Once it began to backfire, he switched it up.

 

[VolMarine1371]

I want to mention Kennedy Chandler vs KY's Washington. Washington was physically ready to play at this level. I am afraid KC is not.

KC had a good game and is projected as a 1st round draft pick. I’m sure the scouts know what they are talking about.

 

[508mikey]

I want to mention Kennedy Chandler vs KY's Washington. Washington was physically ready to play at this level. I am afraid KC is not.

He will leave anyway

 

[BreatheUT]

You don’t turn away a 5 star recruit if you can get them. Especially an in state 5 star like Chandler, BHH, and Keon.

Our big issue is we have no in post scorer like we had with Grant. Time to play BHH and Aidoo and let them develop.

This. It has little to do with the 5 stars. It has more to do with inadequate support players around them that puts us at a major disadvantage.

Just going by our starting lineup this season - only Chandler and Vescovi starts on most or all other SEC teams. Fulkerson based on what we've seen from him, ORN, and even James are off the bench minutes guys on most of the SEC teams. None of the 3 will get you any more than about 10 points on a given night, none will probably have a 10 rebound game, and you will get 2 blocks max. Those are the optimistic numbers and not the average.

 

[plumbervol]

KC had a good game and is projected as a 1st round draft pick. I’m sure the scouts know what they are talking about.

I am not a bit impressed in Sunrise Christian Academy physical development of KC

 

[HalfullVol]

You don’t turn away a 5 star recruit if you can get them. Especially an in state 5 star like Chandler, BHH, and Keon.

Our big issue is we have no in post scorer like we had with Grant. Time to play BHH and Aidoo and let them develop.

100%

CRB has historically shown here that running the offense through the post man is fundamental for his offense to be successful.

Fulk is broken, still sick or both. No one has developed behind him to be the post scoring presence.

It looks like he may have known that was going to be a weak link going into this year with the increased 3pt shooting.

 

[germanicus]

W
-I mentioned Knight above. I don’t think he’d succeed with a bunch of one and dones. Some coaches can. But Knight wasn’t wired that way and I don’t think Barnes is, either. He needs to develop a basketball TEAM. Which is great, because I’d much rather watch that anyway.

I think the portal has changed this dynamic. Now, 3 stars can be "one and done" or "two and done". I'd bet Admiral Schofield would have been out of here out of his first year exposure to Barnes. Quite possibly Jordan Bone as well. Without those two, you don't have Barnes' two great seasons. Guys like Barnes won't be able to "mold" and "break down" kids like they used to do. Just because a kid is a 3 star, four year kid, doesn't mean he'll stick around the same place four years. Doesn't mean Barnes is a bad person. Just his way isn't going to be as effective as it was before the portal.

 

[chuckiepoo]

Say what you want about Cal's on-floor coaching, but he is a master of motivation and an absolute chameleon when it comes to the changing tides of roster construction. He has won many different ways and changed philosophies to do it. He isn't stuck in his ways. He was one of the first to embrace the OAD method and won a title doing it. Once it began to backfire, he switched it up.

It didn’t really start to backfire as much as a new paradigm for roster construction appeared on the horizon.

 

[rdk4121]

When Barnes first arrived at Tennessee and signed the Bone/Williams class, I remember telling friends that he got a chance at a re-start at UT. It seemed to me that Barnes is a really good coach who knows how to build teams and fit different parts together. That’s his talent, just as it was for Bob Knight. Barnes did that at Providence, Clemson, and Texas. But in the latter part (post-KD) of his Texas tenure, his success fell off because, it seemed to me, he started signing a lot of one and dones and couldn’t play to his strength, which was molding true “teams.” Of course, the cache that KD gave him allowed him to sign those top recruits and that had to be tempting.

So, my point that I made to friends was, coming to Tennessee was a restart for him. And he took advantage of it with that Bone/Williams class. I was right. But for some awful officiating at the end of the Purdue game, that team should have made the Elite 8 and maybe Final 4. I thought it would continue because he’d learned to get back to what made him good.

But then, it seems, Barnes fell back into the same trap. His success with the Bone/Williams group allowed him to go sign 5*s again. So he did. He got JJJ, Keon, Jaden, Walker, KC, and BHH. Of course, I rationalized that it would be different this time than at the end of his Texas tenure because he’d mix in the stars with the chemistry guys.

But he seems to be repeating what happened at Texas. They don’t seem to have an identity…just a lot of individual talent. I’m not saying they’re selfish or anything. I just don’t think they have the chemistry that comes with playing multiple years together.

A few points about that:

-Fulkerson is a holdover from that class. He’s never seemed to fit in with the one and done freshmen. It’s always been, they succeed or he succeeds, but never both. He fits better with players like the Bone/Williams group in a team concept.

-Perhaps missing on so many top prospects in next year’s class with be a blessing in disguise. BJ is a 3-4 year PG as is ZZ. Go back and sign some more of those guys at SG, PF, etc. And with Mashack, Aidoo, Tamba, Diboundje, etc. as developmental guys, maybe we’re getting back to Barnes’ comfort zone. Hell, maybe, just maybe, he’s already recognized the problem.

-I mentioned Knight above. I don’t think he’d succeed with a bunch of one and dones. Some coaches can. But Knight wasn’t wired that way and I don’t think Barnes is, either. He needs to develop a basketball TEAM. Which is great, because I’d much rather watch that anyway.

I do think you are spot on. He's hasn't had much success other than a transcendent super star like KD with one and dones. We were okay last year, looks like we'll be a tournament team again this year, but I know we are prefer the camaraderie and success he's had with those teams he built with Bone, Williams, etc.

Maybe we get lucky and BHH sticks around with Aidoo, Mashack, and the rest you mentioned. I'm really high on both Mashack and Diboundje. I think they can be fantastic players going forward. Zeigler has already proven to be pretty solid as a freshman. We'll need both Tamba and Aidoo to take a big step forward next year, and hopefully senior year Nkamhou can finally put it all together.

 

[VolMarine1371]

I am not a bit impressed in Sunrise Christian Academy physical development of KC

It sure wouldn’t hurt the kid to gain 5-10 pounds of muscle that’s for sure.

 

[Vols8086]

The problem is that the team is soft. Soft physically and soft mentally. Unfortunately that is something that rarely changes in season.

 

[smoyers]

Chandler bounces off of players when he tries to defend them, he is just not physical enough IMO. Texas Tech set the model to beat TN, physical basketball and TN cannot put anybody on the court to match up. LSU played physical as did KY. Our defenders bounced off of Washington

What do we have to do put buffaloes on the court, the amount of contact allowed especially by the home team in today’s game is very discerning. The Kentucky guards were allowed a lot of contact on both end of the floor and I called it a mauling on defense the game was not designed to be played that way our guys played tough defense and are quick enough they were allowed to use there off hand to gain separation and there’s not much you can do with that. When I played in high school in Indiana along side Kentucky great Kyle Macey you were not allowed that kind of contact it has diminished the game in my opinion.

 

[i2amavol]

Outside of Chandler, pretty much every contributor on this team is a multi-year type of player, so I’m not exactly seeing the comparison. We’re laden with upperclassmen.

JJJ (Junior)
Santi (Junior)
Olivia (Junior)
Fulky (Super Senior)
Uros (Junior)
Bailey (Senior)

That’s six of our nine main rotation guys who are upperclassmen. And, then we have two guys in Powell and ZZ who are underclassmen and are definitely no threats to leaving soon.

I don’t think this is a case of Barnes using the “Kentucky” model. If it’s chemistry issues, it’s not because of the one-and-dones. It’s because we lack a true vocal leader on this court. Grant and Admiral were constantly commanding the court and being outspoken. Their personalities were a huge factor in our success. Fulky has been really quiet the past few years, and JJJ’s leadership style is a bit quieter and more reserved.

I don’t think the issue is 5* players. It’s that we have never been able to replicate the much needed leadership from our upperclassmen that Grant, Admiral, and even LaMonte would show each game.

I think its a bit of both, but we are certainly missing some vocal leadership from the upper classmen.

 

[cncchris33]

When Barnes first arrived at Tennessee and signed the Bone/Williams class, I remember telling friends that he got a chance at a re-start at UT. It seemed to me that Barnes is a really good coach who knows how to build teams and fit different parts together. That’s his talent, just as it was for Bob Knight. Barnes did that at Providence, Clemson, and Texas. But in the latter part (post-KD) of his Texas tenure, his success fell off because, it seemed to me, he started signing a lot of one and dones and couldn’t play to his strength, which was molding true “teams.” Of course, the cache that KD gave him allowed him to sign those top recruits and that had to be tempting.

So, my point that I made to friends was, coming to Tennessee was a restart for him. And he took advantage of it with that Bone/Williams class. I was right. But for some awful officiating at the end of the Purdue game, that team should have made the Elite 8 and maybe Final 4. I thought it would continue because he’d learned to get back to what made him good.

But then, it seems, Barnes fell back into the same trap. His success with the Bone/Williams group allowed him to go sign 5*s again. So he did. He got JJJ, Keon, Jaden, Walker, KC, and BHH. Of course, I rationalized that it would be different this time than at the end of his Texas tenure because he’d mix in the stars with the chemistry guys.

But he seems to be repeating what happened at Texas. They don’t seem to have an identity…just a lot of individual talent. I’m not saying they’re selfish or anything. I just don’t think they have the chemistry that comes with playing multiple years together.

A few points about that:

-Fulkerson is a holdover from that class. He’s never seemed to fit in with the one and done freshmen. It’s always been, they succeed or he succeeds, but never both. He fits better with players like the Bone/Williams group in a team concept.

-Perhaps missing on so many top prospects in next year’s class with be a blessing in disguise. BJ is a 3-4 year PG as is ZZ. Go back and sign some more of those guys at SG, PF, etc. And with Mashack, Aidoo, Tamba, Diboundje, etc. as developmental guys, maybe we’re getting back to Barnes’ comfort zone. Hell, maybe, just maybe, he’s already recognized the problem.

-I mentioned Knight above. I don’t think he’d succeed with a bunch of one and dones. Some coaches can. But Knight wasn’t wired that way and I don’t think Barnes is, either. He needs to develop a basketball TEAM. Which is great, because I’d much rather watch that anyway.

Great observation, and one I've made here a couple times, myself.

The irony of it is that Barnes, himself, noted that he needed to change his recruiting philosophy when he arrived at Tennessee. He acknowledged it led to his downfall at Texas.

Now, our fans called it lazy; a golden parachute philosophy that he was just coasting into retirement. Except he won. And he continued winning. That led to a spike in the program's national profile and it becoming more attractive to the top-50 type kids. And it seems as if Barnes fell back in love with them, and how could you blame him? The appeal is very real.

We had a great group of underrated kids about to graduate/leave the program with Bone, Williams, and Schofield. The simplest fix for that isn't replacing them with a another group of unearthed diamonds you discover thru excellent scouting and a good bit of luck. The seemingly easiest path to continued success is parlaying that previous success into immediate reinforcements via top-50 players who, in theory, can help in the near-term because they require less development. The bugaboo with that method is that top-50 kids potentially come with different, unique challenges. That is the lesson that Barnes seems to have forgotten.

 

[cncchris33]

It didn’t really start to backfire as much as a new paradigm for roster construction appeared on the horizon.

Well, it backfired in the sense that he was essentially replacing his entire roster every season and was missing on evaluations of some blue chip guys. He was finding less success on the floor, and additional competition developed for the kids he was targeting. Then the paradigm shift occurred and he adjusted, and once again, on the leading edge of it.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Mercenaries can go elsewhere and I couldn't care less. I don't want a bunch of one and dones. It's hard for me to get excited about Chandler because I know he is only here to punch the clock and move on. I want him to do well, but to me I will never feel that his heart is here.

Give me a team full of Fulkys.