40 times

#26
#26
Boca Vol said:
Then run it in pads. That would give you a better indication. Between the 40 and the shuttle run in pads you would get a good idea of a players "football" speed.
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No you won't because football speed isn't just running in pads but how you react to contact and the potential of collision so player don't slow down because of the pad but because they are scared to get hit.
 
#27
#27
Wouldn't the 20 yard time be a better indicator? especially for non WR/Secondary players.

BTW, what is the 40 time for Aaron Medley?
 
#28
#28
Boca Vol said:
Tell me when the last time you saw a college football player wear shorts and nothing else run for 40 yards in a straight line and how that's relevant to football.

There's a bit more to it than that.
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They should time the offensive guys with a football and the defensive guys without.
Why don't they time DB's running backwards?
Shouldn't they make them run on grass instead of a track?
Maybe they should time them after playing 3 quarters of football.
Would the times be the same if someone was running behind or in front of them with a different colored jersey?
Is it relevant if someone's 40 time improves over time, or could it actually mean that they have gotten slower?
When is the last time you saw a football player jumping rope on the field?

....just some various irrelevant thoughts....
 
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#29
#29
I understand that 40's in shorts doesn't mean a great deal to some of you, but in the combine a 4.6 for a DB who was supposed to run a 4.3 can drop them 2 rounds. So apparently, the pros place a great deal of stock in how fast a guy can run in a straight line...in shorts.
 
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#31
#31
It's easy to find "40" times on most of UT recruits, in fact, just today Bleacher report came out and the times were given for most of the EE's. There is definitely a speed difference in the recruits in the 2014 class.Many of CBJ's recruits have 4.4-4.6 times.
 
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#32
#32
it's an imperfect tool used to measure acceleration. Does it directly correlate to football performance? No. As someone else mentioned, it's just another measurable such as height, weight, arm length, etc. But if I've got a group of guys and no one has the "it" factor, none are head and shoulders above the other in football IQ or size, speed would be my next factor. Game speed AND 40 time. You can't have too much data to make decisions.
 
#34
#34
Boca Vol said:
Let's see, I'm pretty sure he ran for 100 yards in full pads and didn't run in a straight line. So no, his 40 time wasn't that important in that case.

However, his 100 time, in full pads, using vision to find a running lane, and being able to kick in the afterburners AFTER running 40 yards was important.

My point is, all those things you mentioned are about "football" speed. That's a lot different than running in a straight line for 40 yards in a pair of shorts.
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A 40 time is just a measure of speed. It could've been a 60, 80 or 100 time, whatever.

The FSU kick returner has been timed as running 40 yds in 4.38 seconds. He's fast and he scored.

If another kid had returned that kick, but he was slower as measured by how long it takes him to run 40 yards (say 4.6 seconds) he would've been run down by the Auburn player who nearly caught the much faster kid, assuming he hadn't been tackled earlier. He would not have been as fast and therefore would not have scored.
 
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#35
#35
hndog609 said:
I think your pads concern is misdirected. It's not the pads, it's actually playing the game that is the larger variable. Again, I've never known anyone that was fast out of pads that wasn't fast in pads. The difference is that when they're in pads they aren't there to be fast, they're there to play football, and while being fast is a wonderful asset it doesn't guarantee jack.
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Absolutely! At the 1984 Olympics Sam Gaddy won Gold and Silver. As a wide receiver, it was amazing (in the true sense of the word) to watch an Orange and White blur streak past defenders, get WIDE FRICKIN OPEN .... only to drop a pass in his hands. As I recall some pro team took a chance they could teach him good hands, but he only lasted a few years in the NFL.

Speed kills, but not without skills.
 
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#36
#36
pastorlee said:
BTW, are you guys saying that there are no documented times out there?
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Very few. Some coaches do time their players. Dooley did and some of the times were leaked.

The other two credible sources that I know of relate to HS recruits. One is track and field times in competition. The other is laser timed 40's that are done at a few combines. Some players will avoid those because they know that their "hand timed" 4.4 or 4.5 40 times will not hold up thus hurting their chances of big time offers.



IIRC, there is actually a video of Hurd recording a very good 40 time.
 
#37
#37
The 40 yard dash was chosen because it measures acceleration over an important football distance. A football field is just over 53 yds. Run a sweep from the I position that covers 10 yds... you've run very close to 40 yds. Defend a sweep from the MLB postion and you've run between 20-40 yds. After 40 yds, acceleration begins to be less important than stride. Very few football plays go longer than 10-20 yd gains.

There are no perfect measures of speed but if you look at the shuttle, 40, and 100 m or hurdle times... you can usually determine if a guy has elite speed or not.
 
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#38
#38
KBVol said:
A 40 time is just a measure of speed. It could've been a 60, 80 or 100 time, whatever.

The FSU kick returner has been timed as running 40 yds in 4.38 seconds. He's fast and he scored.

If another kid had returned that kick, but he was slower as measured by how long it takes him to run 40 yards (say 4.6 seconds) he would've been run down by the Auburn player who nearly caught the much faster kid, assuming he hadn't been tackled earlier. He would not have been as fast and therefore would not have scored.
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In fairness Levonte Whitfield isn't just fast but literally one of the fastest guys in the nation. His 10.28 100m was the 2nd fastest wind legal HS time in the country last year.
 
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#39
#39
hndog609 said:
In fairness Levonte Whitfield isn't just fast but literally one of the fastest guys in the nation. His 10.28 100m was the 2nd fastest wind legal HS time in the country last year.
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??? In what fairness? Makes the point even more. Kid who's timed faster running any particular distance will generally run faster on a football field than other football players who took a longer time to run said particular distance.
 
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#40
#40
KBVol said:
??? In what fairness? Makes the point even more. Kid who's timed faster running any particular distance will generally run faster on a football field than other football players who took a longer time to run said particular distance.
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Meant it's one thing to say somebody is "fast" and then cite someone that is an outlier even in that category. Whitfield would literally leave CP looking slow, and I think we'd all agree CP can really run.

Otherwise your observation makes perfect sense.
 
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#41
#41
Football speed is cutting change of direction and vision. Now ill say that 40 times dont matter much, it signifies how fast a guy is but in football their acceleration is really more important than top speed. How fast can u take off after a stop and cut?
 
#42
#42
sjt18 said:
Very few. Some coaches do time their players. Dooley did and some of the times were leaked.

The other two credible sources that I know of relate to HS recruits. One is track and field times in competition. The other is laser timed 40's that are done at a few combines. Some players will avoid those because they know that their "hand timed" 4.4 or 4.5 40 times will not hold up thus hurting their chances of big time offers.



IIRC, there is actually a video of Hurd recording a very good 40 time.
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Thanks for the info. I still find it curious as to how 40's are so important in HS and the pros but then you don't hear about them in college, especially since the maturity rate of the player's bodies would probably lead to some type of improvement from year to year.
 
#44
#44
they should have them run with pads, helmets, and pertaining to their position, rather it be a hand down, 2 hands down, hands on knees like an rb, or standing in the position of a wr.
Straight track 40 times mean little on the field. Maybe a play or 2 on a long pass or kickoff, but the other 100+ plays in a game have little or nothing to do with a 40 time on a track.
 
#45
#45
pastorlee said:
Thanks for the info. I still find it curious as to how 40's are so important in HS and the pros but then you don't hear about them in college, especially since the maturity rate of the player's bodies would probably lead to some type of improvement from year to year.
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The college coaches may not want to post that openly, but I am pretty sure they know good and well who are the fastest two or three guys on the team, or who is fastest and second fastest in their dbs or wrs, etc.

They are probably just keeping those cards close to the vest. :question:
 
#46
#46
I don't need to see the times on paper to know if we are fast or slow. The fastest " football speed" guy we have is Pig. Most of the other players are a step slow for the level of competition we compete with each week. Butch is making that a huge priority in recruiting so we should see a tangible difference as these new guys start making plays. I can't wait to see our guy start pulling away instead of being pulled away from...
 
#47
#47
40 times have absolutely nothing to do with football, thats why they are never measured... oh wait, they are. Whitfield ran through a hole you could drive a aircraft carrier through because of an Auburn player having a hammy issue and a good block or two. The rest came down to who was faster and the answer was Whitfield. I could careless if I was seeing updated 40 times of current players but, to act like it doesn't matter and those times don't matter is absurd.
 
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#48
#48
Football scouts are addicted to the 40-yard dash, and like all junkies, they sometimes do unwise things. Gil Brandt, former personnel director of the Dallas Cowboys, recalls scouting a receiver from Mississippi Valley State in 1985 named Jerry Rice. The Cowboys, who had the 17th pick mat year, loved Jerry Rice's hands but were concerned about his feet, so they had Rice run the 40 more than 12 times over a three-month period. "We kept thinking this guy played faster and looked faster," Brandt says, sounding wistful, "but he still ran in the 4.6 range. That's why he was drafted 16th. Nobody realized his playing time wasn't his 40 time."

Despite horror stories like that, the 40 remains the gold standard for most NFL scouts. A fast time—4.4 seconds for running backs, receivers and cornerbacks, 4.6 for linebackers and 4.8 for defensive ends. A guy who can't run a fast 40 might get a chance to prove himself; a guy who runs a fast 40 will always get a chance, even if he can't play, because, "Speed is the one thing you can't coach." Which is why every NFL coach is pushing a stopwatch button like a racehorse trainer does.
 
#49
#49
chanwise25 said:
40 times have absolutely nothing to do with football, thats why they are never measured... oh wait, they are. Whitfield ran through a hole you could drive a aircraft carrier through because of an Auburn player having a hammy issue and a good block or two. The rest came down to who was faster and the answer was Whitfield. I could careless if I was seeing updated 40 times of current players but, to act like it doesn't matter and those times don't matter is absurd.
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Leonard Scott and Kenny Oneal agree 100%
 
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#50
#50
40 times are hard to compare and not reliable because they aren't all measured in same way (especially as recruits). If you go by hs track times (with electronic timing), Malik Foreman is fastest player we have. He was fastest fball recruit in state last year. And his hs fball recruiting videos were pretty good so maybe he'll be used more in return game next year.
 
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