9/11 Conspiracy Thread

[Rasputin_Vol]

It's your ignorance that is astronomical.
You are so totally ill prepared (even with the underclass course work you claim) to address the load cases involved in bringing down the towers its hysterically not funny you continue in your ill concieved BS.

And make no mistake. I am seriously calling your descriptions of the mechanisms of how the buildings came down BS. Piled high, hot and steaming BS.

You can take the tac that I'm "yelling" and it is you who are being reasonable. And that too is BS. In the 9/11 thread I and others addressed EVERY SINGLE ONE of your conspiracy tbeory BS points. Every one. You won't accept real engineers telling you that (as I alluded to earlier) the towers DID NOT FALL IN THEIR OWN FOOTPRINT. And that there was extreme compromise of the central core in each of the towers by the inpact. This so weakened the primary structural integrity and secondary systems designed to transmit loads from weakened core columns to others that any other structural system failures at those floors would bring the entire tonnage of the uncompromised ten+ floors crashing STRAIGHT DOWN on the weakened sections and the clips giving way under instaneous catastrophic impact failure would sound like cannon shots.

We tore your conspiracy BS to pieces.
Yet here you are with your BS again claiming your few tech courses and machinists certificate is enougb for you to act knowledgable.

No it is not! You are like the kid that's had 2 weeks of karate and goes to town and gets his ass handed to him by a street fighter.

Most everything you say shows how little you truly understand.

All 3 of those buildings fell straight down. They didn't tip over. They all fell straight down. How anyone can even argue this is incredible.

 

[LouderVol]

The weight of the floors above is the same as before the crash.

what? what? the floors aren't holding up the other floors. they aren't designed to, no reason to do that. even if a floor was designed to hold the load of another floor (and they might actually be with all the safety factors) that is just dead load. not taking into the account of them falling about 15ft. no way in heck you could design the floors to take that kind of live load, just like you can't design a building to survive a jet crashing into it.

simple test you can do. take what ever weight you can comfortably hold. hold it out at half arms reach. thats fine, no problem you can hold it indefinitely. thats what the normal floor system is doing, at some point in those spans the next column is holding up the other side. Now take your weight, double it and hold it out there. you could probably do that, but you will probably not hold up as long as you would like. Now take your original weight, hold it out, and have someone drop from about 3/4ft up that weight again on your already loaded arms. see if you arms don't give a bit. and then take into account that you have had the flu and aren't as strong as you normally are, still feel good about your chances?

 

[LouderVol]

The weight of the 25 lb object didn't change in either scenario, whether it was in your hand or dropped from above you.

If you are not going to use the correct terminology or understand the mechanics behind it, then maybe you need to remove yourself from the discussion. You sound silly.

lololololololololol. omfg. Gold Jerry, gold.

 

[LouderVol]

And I explained to you clearly how the floors below would handle the collapse with the fact that the kinetic energy of each impact (floor collapse) would have needed to be converted into the energy needed to fail each support structure on the floor below it. With each successive collision, more energy would need to be converted to a force great enough to fail each floor below it. As the collisions get further from the impact and heat source, you begin to encounter stronger support structures. Eventually, the kinetic energy from each impact would have not been enough to overcome the energy necessary to cause a failure.

with each collision the major structure from the floor above isn't disappearing. you are adding weight each time. and at some point each successive floor below would not be getting any stronger than the one above. they are going to use a similar connection detail at each floor. you don't jack it up each time because there is no reason to. None of the floors supported any of the other floors. columns look them up.

 

[LouderVol]

i need to finish reading before I respond because a lot of my comments are repeats. I tried to find the real detail but this describes how these floors are held up.

see that angle on the left of the first image called out with two 5/8 diameter bolts in slotted holes. that is pretty much it holding up the floors. that little angle/connection. once that gets sheared there is zero strength to hold up that floor.

WTC would have had much beefer connections but that is the idea.

 

[LouderVol]

Lets be clear. I fully understand how the towers collapsed. My issue is that it could not have fallen in the manner described. 3 unique buildings, damaged in 3 different manners failing in the exact same way. Astronomical odds for that to occur.

there were no asymmetrical forces being applied. nothing twisting or pulling, just gravity. gravity works in pretty much just one direction, straight down. asymmetrical damage doesn't really matter, there wasn't enough asymmetrical damage to bring it down on impact so that wouldn't change as all that force was dissipated. even when the fires hit there was nothing pushing or twisting the floors to fall in random directions, just gravity. first floor or two might have warped a bit as one side failed faster. but again once they have impacted the next floor down that asymmetry works itself out pretty fast.

The columns on the exterior were more or less intact, that is not where the failure really hurt. those columns on the outside would have kept that asymmetry inside the box. its only once several floors were gone that you would see the columns fail (probably more than just several), and they are going to get pulled in. nothing to push them out, or twist or turn them. and since they were braced from the inside that is where they are going to fail too.

i know it sounds crazy but here in America we design our buildings to work a certain way, and because of that its pretty easy to predict how they will fail.

as far as working out the math. I have. saw the clip system being used. calculated the math on them. no way in hades they should have held up on the lower floors. I want to say it was around a dead load of 2.3 floors that the clips fail. and that is dead load, not live, which falling floors would have more closely fallen under.

 

[LouderVol]

You still do not understand. Treat each floor collapsing on the the floor below as an individual event. The kinetic energy of the floor above has to be enough to not only catastrophically fail the steel and whatever other supports that may be in place, but it has to do it at the speed of gravity (or near the speed of gravity). Each collision requires an impact and a transfer of the kinetic energy into the support structure below. You will have energy losses along with each successive collision, along with entering a region of stronger and stronger steel and supports.

from kinetic to being a mass. the floors don't disappear. they add their mass so the next impact is x2, then x3, then x4.

the steel only gets stronger to a point. I am willing to bet each of those bands (3) in the building, separated by the mechanical floors, were designed with the same clips. maybe something different for the top couple and bottom couple. but for the most part they are going to be the same. it would have been asinine to design each one differently. you design for the worst case and apply it everywhere.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

All 3 of those buildings fell straight down. They didn't tip over. They all fell straight down. How anyone can even argue this is incredible.

You have already been shown, about a year ago, the diagram prepared by the company tasked with cleanup and search bodies, jet components, structural memmbers, etc., showing the precise ground locations of the many, many quite large major structural components-especially from the exterior load bearing structural curtain wall, found far outside the footprint.
Many more than twice the road road width. You and all the others who for lack of engineering ability and wanton disregard of reality continue to ignore theses FACTS.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

from kinetic to being a mass. the floors don't disappear. they add their mass so the next impact is x2, then x3, then x4.

the steel only gets stronger to a point. I am willing to bet each of those bands (3) in the building, separated by the mechanical floors, were designed with the same clips. maybe something different for the top couple and bottom couple. but for the most part they are going to be the same. it would have been asinine to design each one differently. you design for the worst case and apply it everywhere.

For those of you who may be wondering, Louder is a young architect in the residential/commercial/ institutional areas of expertise. He definitely understands the issues. While actual structural engineering of heavy industrial, power generation, and nuclear plant design and construction was mine.. before retirement😁.

Ras, by his own admission, had a very few undergrad (freshman-from his descriptions) engineering courses then left to become a machinist.

So HIS FORMAL TRAINING of structures and how to design for the loads they encounter during natural disasters of earthquakes, tornados & floods, and how to design for the explosive forces and various accidental heat load cases of a major nuclear accident or terrorist attack (flying a 747 into a nuclear reactor) etc, etc, etc, IS NON EXISTANT.

Don't trust ANYTHING Ras has to say on the subject. I have previously debunked every sngle argument he makes with links to knowledgeable websites. I provided links to major university research enginering structural analysis graphical videos. Such as how fast the towers will come down which was not true free fall, but exactly how they did and to what floor based on the universally accepted clip failure mechanisms. I provided finite element analysis links of the destruction caused by the impacts on each of the two towers. As I previously said, I provided a schematic map of the debris field. Much of the structural steel exterior curtain wall debris fell outside the building's footprints. Thus piercing the 3rd buildings curtain wall and structural mechanisms. NOT JUST AT THE BASE and so Ras's statement of falling "like a tree" has no basis in reality. Nada, zip, zero, zed, NONE. As do virtually every single one of these claims conspiracy BS.

Give Ras no credit for understanding real engineering methodologies and concepts. His continuing with this crap is loony toons.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

A computer simulation of the damage to two floors showing exterior curtain wall, interior core columns, and particals and atomization and ignition of the jet fuel.

Scientists simulate jet colliding with World Trade Center - YouTube

Side note: On the roof is a "hat truss" which is designed to transfer loads from a failed interior support column to those with structural integrity. As this video plainly shows, several core columns were severed, and so exceeding the capability of the hat truss to redistribute loads. The intended columns were cut in two.

 

[Grand Vol]

And this is why we can't have reasonable, rational discussions in here.

We start with this shooting, which has far more unanswered questions than answers. And all the sudden, we get locked into conspiracy theories and WTC reenactments with the mouthbreathers who are convinced it's an elaborate plot of collusion between the CIA, Israel, Saudi Arabia and the "Deep State."

 

[tumscalcium]

And this is why we can't have reasonable, rational discussions in here.

We start with this shooting, which has far more unanswered questions than answers. And all the sudden, we get locked into conspiracy theories and WTC reenactments with the mouthbreathers who are convinced it's an elaborate plot of collusion between the CIA, Israel, Saudi Arabia and the "Deep State."

Now, what if the same people who REALLY took down the towers were behind this shooting? Yeah, I bet you feel silly!

 

[ETV]

And this is why we can't have reasonable, rational discussions in here.

We start with this shooting, which has far more unanswered questions than answers. And all the sudden, we get locked into conspiracy theories and WTC reenactments with the mouthbreathers who are convinced it's an elaborate plot of collusion between the CIA, Israel, Saudi Arabia and the "Deep State."

This thread did make it to 77 pages before it derailed.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

This thread did make it to 77 pages before it derailed.

This thread didn’t just derail. It plowed into a neighborhood and spilled a bunch of nuclear waste into the local river.

Also dang people you can change your browsing options to see more posts per page. Can’t believe people are going through here 10 at a time.

 

[LouderVol]

This thread didn’t just derail. It plowed into a neighborhood and spilled a bunch of nuclear waste into the local river.

Also dang people you can change your browsing options to see more posts per page. Can’t believe people are going through here 10 at a time.

if freak wanted to fix the reload issue make more posts per page the rule instead of an option.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Chemtrails.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

Radioactive salmon and tuna

 

[ETV]

Chemtrails.

Since you brought it up...

 

[hndog609]

Since you brought it up...

As pretty much always a very simple and reasonable explanation.

Take a Peek Inside the 747-8 Test Plane | WIRED

 

[UT-Rex]

A computer simulation of the damage to two floors showing exterior curtain wall, interior core columns, and particals and atomization and ignition of the jet fuel.

Scientists simulate jet colliding with World Trade Center - YouTube

Side note: On the roof is a "hat truss" which is designed to transfer loads from a failed interior support column to those with structural integrity. As this video plainly shows, several core columns were severed, and so exceeding the capability of the hat truss to redistribute loads. The intended columns were cut in two.

I'm sure you've seen em all, but here's a good one --


9/11 Collapses Violated Fundamental Laws of Physics - Explained - YouTube

 

[UT-Rex]

For those of you who may be wondering, Louder is a young architect in the residential/commercial/ institutional areas of expertise. He definitely understands the issues. While actual structural engineering of heavy industrial, power generation, and nuclear plant design and construction was mine.. before retirement😁.

Ras, by his own admission, had a very few undergrad (freshman-from his descriptions) engineering courses then left to become a machinist.

So HIS FORMAL TRAINING of structures and how to design for the loads they encounter during natural disasters of earthquakes, tornados & floods, and how to design for the explosive forces and various accidental heat load cases of a major nuclear accident or terrorist attack (flying a 747 into a nuclear reactor) etc, etc, etc, IS NON EXISTANT.

Don't trust ANYTHING Ras has to say on the subject. I have previously debunked every sngle argument he makes with links to knowledgeable websites. I provided links to major university research enginering structural analysis graphical videos. Such as how fast the towers will come down which was not true free fall, but exactly how they did and to what floor based on the universally accepted clip failure mechanisms. I provided finite element analysis links of the destruction caused by the impacts on each of the two towers. As I previously said, I provided a schematic map of the debris field. Much of the structural steel exterior curtain wall debris fell outside the building's footprints. Thus piercing the 3rd buildings curtain wall and structural mechanisms. NOT JUST AT THE BASE and so Ras's statement of falling "like a tree" has no basis in reality. Nada, zip, zero, zed, NONE. As do virtually every single one of these claims conspiracy BS.

Give Ras no credit for understanding real engineering methodologies and concepts. His continuing with this crap is loony toons.

Here's a good one:

"The Vierendeel trusses would be so effective, according to the engineers' calculations, that all the columns on one side of a tower could be cut ... as well as the two corners and several columns on the adjacent side, and the tower would still be strong enough to withstand a 100-mph wind."

"Live loads on these [perimeter] columns can be increased more than 2000% before failure occurs" (John Skilling, Structural Engineer who designed the t-towers).

9/11 - Just How Robust Were The WTC Twin Towers? - YouTube

 

[LouderVol]

I'm sure you've seen em all, but here's a good one --


9/11 Collapses Violated Fundamental Laws of Physics - Explained - YouTube

lol. got 1 minute into that video and had to stop because of my laughter. "the top 15 floors wouldn't be there after collapsing". uhm hey numbnuts you see the debris. its all right there. the stuff didn't disappear. take out momentum for the moment because there is a lot of math there. just look at the mass of stuff. that mass has weight, duh. the floors below have to support that extra weight that they weren't designed for. his example of cars colliding is laughable and displays a clear lack of honesty of the situation.

1. these were not equal forces being applied to equal objects.
2. these objects were not acting in opposite directions to cancel each other out. they were acting in the same direction (down) gravity was the only load on the other floors, and you are ADDING the force of the floors above. not subtracting. yes some "disappears" but there is still going to be some that stacks. he is getting velocity confused with total mass. to use his analogy it would be like saying a car at rest is hit by a car moving, what happens? And in this case its a VW Beetle getting smashed by a Mack Truck. at some point that VW stops apply any noticeable resistance and the Mack Truck continues on at will with a little more mass added to it.

apologies to GV, but these are incredibly dishonest videos meant to sway opinion without actually providing any truth.

 

[UT-Rex]

lol. got 1 minute into that video and had to stop because of my laughter. "the top 15 floors wouldn't be there after collapsing". uhm hey numbnuts you see the debris. its all right there. the stuff didn't disappear. take out momentum for the moment because there is a lot of math there. just look at the mass of stuff. that mass has weight, duh. the floors below have to support that extra weight that they weren't designed for. his example of cars colliding is laughable and displays a clear lack of honesty of the situation.

1. these were not equal forces being applied to equal objects.
2. these objects were not acting in opposite directions to cancel each other out. they were acting in the same direction (down) gravity was the only load on the other floors, and you are ADDING the force of the floors above. not subtracting. yes some "disappears" but there is still going to be some that stacks. he is getting velocity confused with total mass. to use his analogy it would be like saying a car at rest is hit by a car moving, what happens? And in this case its a VW Beetle getting smashed by a Mack Truck. at some point that VW stops apply any noticeable resistance and the Mack Truck continues on at will with a little more mass added to it.

apologies to GV, but these are incredibly dishonest videos meant to sway opinion without actually providing any truth.

You believe John Skilling was being untruthful in the reporting of his calculations?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

lol. got 1 minute into that video and had to stop because of my laughter. "the top 15 floors wouldn't be there after collapsing". uhm hey numbnuts you see the debris. its all right there. the stuff didn't disappear. take out momentum for the moment because there is a lot of math there. just look at the mass of stuff. that mass has weight, duh. the floors below have to support that extra weight that they weren't designed for. his example of cars colliding is laughable and displays a clear lack of honesty of the situation.

1. these were not equal forces being applied to equal objects.
2. these objects were not acting in opposite directions to cancel each other out. they were acting in the same direction (down) gravity was the only load on the other floors, and you are ADDING the force of the floors above. not subtracting. yes some "disappears" but there is still going to be some that stacks. he is getting velocity confused with total mass. to use his analogy it would be like saying a car at rest is hit by a car moving, what happens? And in this case its a VW Beetle getting smashed by a Mack Truck. at some point that VW stops apply any noticeable resistance and the Mack Truck continues on at will with a little more mass added to it.

apologies to GV, but these are incredibly dishonest videos meant to sway opinion without actually providing any truth.

Not what he said.

 

[ETV]

As pretty much always a very simple and reasonable explanation.

Take a Peek Inside the 747-8 Test Plane | WIRED

Figured my sarcasm would have been detected without the blue font.