A few NON 5 star recruits to watch tonight

[rcrrcr]

What other teams are recruiting players is much more important than how many stars they have by thier name. Recruiting rankings is like predicting the weather, you are right about 50% of the time. Example:

over the last 4 years in recruiting according to Rivals

Gators averaged finishing 6th in the country in recruiting while Louisville averaged finishing 50th in the country. Gators may be a little bit more talented but not that much. and the Gators lost the bowl game.

Another example:

Tennessee averaged finishing 12th in the country in recruiting while Oregon averaged 18th in the country. Oregon is much more talented than the vols.

The only way to truly evaluate a recruiting class is in thier jr. year of college.

 

[SSVol]

The teams that are consistently competing for championships in the SEC (and that is the key, it's the SEC) are filled with 4 & 5 star guys with some 3 stars mixed in. That is an irrefutable fact. If we aren't getting comparable talent we won't be competing for the SEC. Getting mostly 3 star guys (or less) with just a couple of 4 star guys mixed in ain't gonna get the job done PERIOD !!! Butchy has got to start doing much much better than he has shown thus far. That's all there is to it !!!

Yeah...no doubt...most coaches that don't completely suck, can win with overwhelming firepower. Agreed. And to the extent that you can recruit that quality player (we can't at this point) then sunshine.

On the other hand, would you consider USCjr to be a quality SEC team? I certainly would, and I would be thrilled to be playing as well as they are right now. The last 4 years they have had 57% 3 stars and 11% 2...68% of the team are not elite. But they have a coach. And so do we.

Bottom line: Most coaches can win with proven talent. Some can't. Some coaches can identify and develop unproven talent. Most can't. I think Butch can. Your mileage may vary.

 

[87Vol]

Yeah...no doubt...most coaches that don't completely suck, can win with overwhelming firepower. Agreed. And to the extent that you can recruit that quality player (we can't at this point) then sunshine.

On the other hand, would you consider USCjr to be a quality SEC team? I certainly would, and I would be thrilled to be playing as well as they are right now. The last 4 years they have had 57% 3 stars and 11% 2...68% of the team are not elite. But they have a coach. And so do we.

Bottom line: Most coaches can win with proven talent. Some can't. Some coaches can identify and develop unproven talent. Most can't. I think Butch can. Your mileage may vary.

I consider S. Carolina marginally good. They have yet to win an SEC Championship and have only won the East once. The teams I consider elite in the SEC are AL, FL, LSU, and GA. They are perennially competing for championships and you will find them loaded with 4 & 5 star talent. I don't know about you but as a fan and alum, I will not settle for anything less than our program being on par with those programs. I expect to be a serious contender for the SEC Championship nearly every year like those teams. Anything less is unacceptable. We ain't gonna get there with Jones if he can't recruit consistently better than 3-star or less talent.

 

[volmoon]

I bet a higher percentage of 4 and 5 stars succeed on both college and nfl levels then percentage of 2 and 3 stars...

When the NY Giants won their Super's, they did it with almost all 2 & 3 *. They added some more stars and missed the playoffs.

Make you crazy?

 

[SSVol]

I consider S. Carolina marginally good. They have yet to win an SEC Championship and have only won the East once. The teams I consider elite in the SEC are AL, FL, LSU, and GA. They are perennially competing for championships and you will find them loaded with 4 & 5 star talent. I don't know about you but as a fan and alum, I will not settle for anything less than our program being on par with those programs. I expect to be a serious contender for the SEC Championship nearly every year like those teams. Anything less is unacceptable. We ain't gonna get there with Jones if he can't recruit consistently better than 3-star or less talent.

How do I feel about winning? I attended the NC game in '98. Good times. 'Nuf said.

But you gotta walk before you can run. Right now we are nowhere near playing at the level of our current talent, much less in position to recruit more. Given how badly we have squandered what we have, I couldn't in good conscience ask for more. Averaging 12th in the last 4, but spending only minutes ranked? The problem isn't/wasn't recruiting, it's coaching. And FWIW, if we were as "marginally good" as USCjr, we wouldn't have a recruiting problem. At all.

Use what you have, and more will be given. Don't, and what you have will be taken. Right now we are experiencing the 'taken' part. And it ain't Butch's fault. But I do think he will be able to fix it in a few.

I don't disagree with anything you've said. I disagree on how it happens. You don't recruit to play well. You play well and then you recruit. And then you play better. Rinse and repeat.

 

[RichRollin]

Boise State beat Oklahoma in 07
Utah beat Bama in 09
Boise State beat UGA 11
Louisville beat Florida in 13

It's getting less rare.

The point I am trying to make is that gap between major and mid major is narrowing as I believe coaching plays a greater role.

If these teams played the week in and week out grind in the SEC, they wouldn't have even made it to a BCS Bowl. That's a FACT. Hell, I'd be willing to bet if Tennessee played Boise's schedule, even as bad as we've been in the SEC we would have been in a BCS Bowl or two. This argument is weak and played out.

 

[pualsline]

When the NY Giants won their Super's, they did it with almost all 2 & 3 *. They added some more stars and missed the playoffs.

Make you crazy?

I know right...

Eli Manning had 4* during his recuitment
Hakeem Nicks 4*
Martellus Bennet 5*

Cruz 2*
Bradshaw 3*
Nicks 3*
Hynoski (could not find we will count him as a 2*)

(couldn't find stars for offensive lineman)

I will use this year as a standard. There are around 350 4 or 5* players. That means .085% of the players panned out for the super bowl champions.

Man, that is a low percentage. Let's look at 2 and 3 star players.

according to this site there are 254,000 high school players trying to earn a college scholarship. (link below)

so let's subtract the 350 for the 4 and 5 star players to the total number of players. 253,650 are the number of lower starred players. Giving you a percentage of 1.5757337010045302343903880244239e-5%

Link

again I say your chances of hitting with a 2 or 3 star player are much lower...

 

[NCVol1025]

come on man mattews had to walk on b/c he was a pot head n high school that grew 4" in college

 

[Boca Vol]

How do I feel about winning? I attended the NC game in '98. Good times. 'Nuf said.

But you gotta walk before you can run. Right now we are nowhere near playing at the level of our current talent, much less in position to recruit more. Given how badly we have squandered what we have, I couldn't in good conscience ask for more. Averaging 12th in the last 4, but spending only minutes ranked? The problem isn't/wasn't recruiting, it's coaching. And FWIW, if we were as "marginally good" as USCjr, we wouldn't have a recruiting problem. At all.

Use what you have, and more will be given. Don't, and what you have will be taken. Right now we are experiencing the 'taken' part. And it ain't Butch's fault. But I do think he will be able to fix it in a few.

I don't disagree with anything you've said. I disagree on how it happens. You don't recruit to play well. You play well and then you recruit. And then you play better. Rinse and repeat.

I, too, was there but what does that have to do with 2013?

Jan 4, 1999
2000
2001
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
2011
2012
2013

That's a lot of years between then and now. UT can't rest on it's history because the kids they're recruiting were 4-5 years old and have no clue or could care less what UT did in 1998.

 

[Orange to the Bay]

I agree, I was just saying that it's not the end of the world if you end up with a 3 star QB instead of the 5 star you wanted.

Of course. I can't disagree. Not the end all. But, law of avgs will always prevail.

I mean, honestly, one could pull out all the stats they want. I guarantee there are more 3* in the NFL than any other star level.

There's multiple thousands of HS football players in the US any given year. Of this, there are 20 5*, give or take maybe 200 4* (guesstimate), & hundreds upon hundreds of 3*, hundreds upon hundreds of 2*, & thousands of unranked. So, most of the 2* are probably that for a reason, & most won't make it. Not all, but most. Most of the 3* lack innate explosiveness, size, speed, freakish stuff, so will need hard work, coaching, lifting (Gatorade commercial stuff) to make it. & some will. Not a big proportion, but some. But, since the pot is huge, most NFL guys probably hail from this pot. The 4 & 5* are most often the freaks, & will either do the work & make it, or be lazy, get in trouble & not. They're the ones with the most to lose. But, the pot is small, so less will come from these elite HS guys.

 

[Orange to the Bay]

This entire thread's conversation is very inconsistent with the past. When Kiffin left, everyone wanted 4 & 5* to rebuild. We'd had a barely winning, & a couple losing seasons, similar to now. But, everyone thought we should get DaRick, Hunter, Kembrell Thompkins (whom we lost to Cinci actually), J Smith...all these 4* guys to get things back on the right track & replenish a depleted roster.

Now, we have a roster of 4* guys who've played poorly & lost, & everyone now says, since we're losing (same as 3 yrs ago) we don't deserve 4*, & we have to take 3* & coach them up to win to get some 4*. So, same scenario, different tune. I don't get it. But, basically, to compete with the SEC, we need SEC caliber players, & those are on avg 4* guys with 3*'s to fill the roster. So, if all we get are 3* guys, we will be in trouble. End of discussion.

 

[InVOLuntary]

Just for fun, i ran the numbers for these two schools in the last 10 years.

They are 7th and 8th nationally in wins and are averaging just short of ten wins a year during that stretch.

So, yeah, they arent really doing much

I was half way joking you but recent history suggest otherwise. GA always seems to under achieve especially. It would be interesting to see preseason ranking versus post season rankings.

 

[87Vol]

How do I feel about winning? I attended the NC game in '98. Good times. 'Nuf said.

But you gotta walk before you can run. Right now we are nowhere near playing at the level of our current talent, much less in position to recruit more. Given how badly we have squandered what we have, I couldn't in good conscience ask for more. Averaging 12th in the last 4, but spending only minutes ranked? The problem isn't/wasn't recruiting, it's coaching. And FWIW, if we were as "marginally good" as USCjr, we wouldn't have a recruiting problem. At all.

Use what you have, and more will be given. Don't, and what you have will be taken. Right now we are experiencing the 'taken' part. And it ain't Butch's fault. But I do think he will be able to fix it in a few.

I doyn't disagree with anything you've said. I disagree on how it happens. You don't recruit to play well. You play well and then you recruit. And then you play better. Rinse and repeat.

I appreciate your comments and I respect your opinion but I just don't share it. A coach with a buzz around him, a dynamic personality, good salesmanship skills, who can relate to today's elite athletes can elevate a program's recruiting from the get go. Case in point would be James Franklin. He immediately took Vandy to a level of recruiting that they have never seen before and will probably never see again after he leaves. That combined with coaching up talent is what builds the program. This is precisely the type of coach we need at UT. A guy like that would be able to recruit close enough to our competitors to give us a chance. 3 star guys or below just ain't gonna get it done in the SEC (unless your top goal is a 2nd or 3rd rate bowl game) no matter how good the coaching is. Our fans should expect and demand more from Jones, and if he can't deliver then keep looking until we find a gut who can !!! 4 & 5 stars or bust !!!

 

[orangebloodgmc]

He's probably mad because our recruiting absolutely sucks and Butchy is showing very little early sign that he can recruit at the level necessary for us to compete in the SEC.

Beating out Ball State for low level 3 star guys or stealing guys from Cincinnati ain't gonna cut it. NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS PERIOD !!!

My fellow Vol fan, you probably know many of the highest-ranked guys commit at the very end. We may not get any of em, but if we do, it'll probably be later, not necessarily right now. :hi:

 

[SSVol]

I appreciate your comments and I respect your opinion but I just don't share it. A coach with a buzz around him, a dynamic personality, good salesmanship skills, who can relate to today's elite athletes can elevate a program's recruiting from the get go. Case in point would be James Franklin. He immediately took Vandy to a level of recruiting that they have never seen before and will probably never see again after he leaves. That combined with coaching up talent is what builds the program. This is precisely the type of coach we need at UT. A guy like that would be able to recruit close enough to our competitors to give us a chance. 3 star guys or below just ain't gonna get it done in the SEC (unless your top goal is a 2nd or 3rd rate bowl game) no matter how good the coaching is. Our fans should expect and demand more from Jones, and if he can't deliver then keep looking until we find a gut who can !!! 4 & 5 stars or bust !!!

And yet Vandy's great recruiting class is 2 4 stars and 19 3 stars. And they kicked our tail with all of their 3 star talent. I stand by my statement that you have to find ways to win with what you have to be attractive to what you want. Franklin is improving recruiting in large measure due to his performance.

I also think that in time Butch will do that, and ironically, I see Butch as being exactly what you are describing that you want. He did at Cincy precisely what you are describing, and raised the average recruiting class under Kelly from 72 to 52...a rather nice bump I'd say. And IIR, he deprived Mr. Franklin of one of his recruits. Not exactly the best win (we didn't steal a 5 star from Saban), but a very nice start I think...especially given the mo that Franklin currently has.

I'm pretty sure we agree on more than we don't. I just think that reality dictates that for where UT is now, that hiring a Saban or Stoops wasn't in the cards, and by extension, recruiting elite talent is going to take more time. As much as we all would have loved a splash hire that would've caused 4 and 5 stars to line up, it just wasn't happening...especially given the fact that the program is financially broke. Given that reality, it's gonna have to be a more ground up approach, and despite the negative vibe around here, I really do believe that we will see steady improvement over the several years...both on the field and in recruiting.

I would guess that we won't be playing for championships for at least 3 years, but I do think it will come. If it doesn't, we'll be having this same conversion in 3 years. In the meantime, I'm going to assume that Butch's past performance is indicative of his ability, and will assume that he can get the job done. In the end, none of our opinions change anything...but like in marriage, you can be happy or you can be right. For now, I will choose happy.

 

[iluvsmesumdooley]

5 stars? I just want more than 4 4-stars!! Sh**, we ain't gettin any 5 stars!!

 

[iluvsmesumdooley]

And yet Vandy's great recruiting class is 2 4 stars and 19 3 stars. And they kicked our tail with all of their 3 star talent. I stand by my statement that you have to find ways to win with what you have to be attractive to what you want. Franklin is improving recruiting in large measure due to his performance.

I also think that in time Butch will do that, and ironically, I see Butch as being exactly what you are describing that you want. He did at Cincy precisely what you are describing, and raised the average recruiting class under Kelly from 72 to 52...a rather nice bump I'd say. And IIR, he deprived Mr. Franklin of one of his recruits. Not exactly the best win (we didn't steal a 5 star from Saban), but a very nice start I think...especially given the mo that Franklin currently has.

I'm pretty sure we agree on more than we don't. I just think that reality dictates that for where UT is now, that hiring a Saban or Stoops wasn't in the cards, and by extension, recruiting elite talent is going to take more time. As much as we all would have loved a splash hire that would've caused 4 and 5 stars to line up, it just wasn't happening...especially given the fact that the program is financially broke. Given that reality, it's gonna have to be a more ground up approach, and despite the negative vibe around here, I really do believe that we will see steady improvement over the several years...both on the field and in recruiting.

I would guess that we won't be playing for championships for at least 3 years, but I do think it will come. If it doesn't, we'll be having this same conversion in 3 years. In the meantime, I'm going to assume that Butch's past performance is indicative of his ability, and will assume that he can get the job done. In the end, none of our opinions change anything...but like in marriage, you can be happy or you can be right. For now, I will choose happy.

Vandy's still well ahead of us in recruiting. So what if we stole one? Steal FIVE, Bruce. It's what UT is SUPPOSED to do!! Steal one recruit from Vandy - BAH!!:realmad:

 

[SSVol]

Vandy's still well ahead of us in recruiting. So what if we stole one? Steal FIVE, Bruce. It's what UT is SUPPOSED to do!! Steal one recruit from Vandy - BAH!!:realmad:

The OP was pointing at Vandy as an example of a dynamic coach that was getting the job done. The OP is also a firm believer that getting the job done requires 4 and 5 star players...which Vandy doesn't have currently. I was just pointing out the rub in the logic.

For the record: It takes great talent and great coaching to consistently succeed to the level that we want to be at. We have good talent, but have had bad coaching. We will continue to recruit good talent, and I think will be limited to that until it is proven that we have great coaching. Only time can tell whether Butch is a great coach, or just a good coach. And a good coach will get us back to winning..even if not great.

And fer cryin' out loud, can we all agree that winning 9 or 10 games a year and going to a decent bowl would be a solid B? And a solid B would be about a 1000% more fun than we've been having? [Stand by: Single guys holding out for Mila Kunis will begin flaming me in 5..4..3..]

 

[peyton4heisman]

yup. Peyton, Jamal, EB, Al Wilson, Leonard Little, etc.... we got lucky that these guys turned out to be ball players...

 

[VOLorNuttin]

My favorite argument is the:

"More 3 and 4 star recruits go in the first round each year than 5 star recruits"

OF COURSE MORE OF THESE GET DRAFTED! THERE'S ONLY 10-15 5 STAR RECRUITS EACH YEAR, COMPARED TO THE HUNDREDS OF 3 AND 4 STAR RECRUITS.

Now, you've gone and done it! You just had to bring logic into this discussion.

 

[pualsline]

My favorite argument is the:

"More 3 and 4 star recruits go in the first round each year than 5 star recruits"

OF COURSE MORE OF THESE GET DRAFTED! THERE'S ONLY 10-15 5 STAR RECRUITS EACH YEAR, COMPARED TO THE HUNDREDS OF 3 AND 4 STAR RECRUITS.

Actually there are about 30, 5* players.

Though there are about 250,000 2 and 3* players

 

[Memphisvol87]

This is the sec not the nfl. Tebow dominated college and we all know how the pros are going for him. 4 and 5 star does not mean nfl ready it means they stand out as ready to compete in the NCAA. Quit worrying who is playing on Sunday because we keep getting our tails whipped on Saturday while you're making excuses for our poor recruiting .

 

[1974Vol]

U can have a team full of 5 stars and still suck. If the coaching staff doesn't get them to buy in to the team concept and can actually help those 5 stars perform at a level above their opponent whomever it maybe be they aren't going to be any better than a bunch of 2 stars. GBO!!!

See USC Lane Kiffen
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[Vol8188]

Actually there are about 30, 5* players.

Though there are about 250,000 2 and 3* players

30? Which service rated that many kids as 5 stars?

 

[easttnvol14]

The only way a team with 4 and 5 stars loses to team with 3 stars is coaching. To be at the elite level that Bama is currently at, you have to have both good coaching and elite recruiting. Sure, teams like GA and FL St. that are loaded with 4 and 5 stars may lose occasionally to team with 3 stars and that is on the coaching. A well coached team with 3 stars is rarely going to beat a well coached team of 4 and 5 stars. Pretty simple.