A little fuel to the "Pac-10 vs. everyone else" fire

#76
#76
All the more reason though, in my view, to revise the system so that scheduling weak games isn't rewarded. I don't care who ends up being the best conference. I just want to see more competitive games and an apples to apples contest for the bowl games.

Oregon was rewarded with a National Title birth and had one of, if not the weakest SOS of any team in the top 15. Imagine that.

If they all occurred in the same season, yes. Not possible though, is it? Hence the disadvantage the Pac-10 has playing 9 conference games.

Lmao, so you're really trying to argue that having 4 champions from a single conference in a 5 years span, isn't a reflection of conference balance? :eek:lol:

Not everyone gets to play Vandy either.

Which is irrelevant, because not everybody in the conference gets to play Vandy.

I know that's your basis. I've just pointed out it's flaws. You are free to maintain it anyway. Carry on my wayward son! ;)

There were no flaws. You're wrong. Period.

I'm not throwing it out. I'm just pointing out that it isn't a measurement of conference strength. Florida winning a recent National Championship doesn't change the fact that they aren't as good now, for example.

So instead of Florida, Arkansas and Auburn step up. An example of conference balance, and depth.

The point of scheduling tough OOC games is that they're a lot more fun to watch. Remember that? Watching and enjoying good football games?

Losing games is fun? :unsure:
 
#77
#77
Oregon was rewarded with a National Title birth and had one of, if not the weakest SOS of any team in the top 15. Imagine that.

Not by objective measure, based on margin of victory: USATODAY.com

Lmao, so you're really trying to argue that having 4 champions from a single conference in a 5 years span, isn't a reflection of conference balance? :eek:lol:

The conference could be very unbalanced in every one of those seasons. Coaches, players, etc. change.

So instead of Florida, Arkansas and Auburn step up. An example of conference balance, and depth.

Yeah. Each of them with 8 home games and 4 cupcakes (except A&M).

Thank you for underscoring my point.

Losing games is fun? :unsure:

Risking a loss against a quality opponent and winning is more fun than watching glorified spring games. Yes.
 
#78
#78
Not by objective measure, based on margin of victory: USATODAY.com

Not everyone takes Sagarin's hot garbage serious Wheat. It's not our Grail as it yours.

Oregon's beaten one ranked team, who in turn, has beaten no ranked teams. They've both played weak schedules.

Btw, Sagarin has the SEC as the best conference... Again. Do you hold that as a truth as well?

The conference could be very unbalanced in every one of those seasons. Coaches, players, etc. change.

But it isn't. Next.

Yeah. Each of them with 8 home games and 4 cupcakes (except A&M).

Thank you for underscoring my point.

It's funny you consider Clemson a cupcake when they've accomplished something half the Pac-10 couldn't. Become eligible for a bowl game. :birgits_giggle:

Risking a loss against a quality opponent and winning is more fun than watching glorified spring games. Yes.

Auburn vs. Alabama, the most viewed game this college football season, was a glorified spring game? :loco:

And the 6 different times Auburn played a ranked team was what exactly if they weren't quality wins?
 
#79
#79
I suppose I can sort of understand complaining about all conferences other than the SEC playing less conference matchups each year (this really depends on how you view the bottom teams of the conference. Some could argue that they would rather play 9 of the 10 Pac-10 schools rather than 7 of the top 10 SEC schools and either the 11th or 12th team, because only a lucky couple or few usually get to play both...). From my understanding, however, the Pac-10 chose the format recently and willingly, so I don't really see how anyone from the Pac-10 can complain about it.

Home games may be easier, but SEC schools hardly want to play many OOC away games since SEC schools generally have larger stadiums than just about anybody they are playing OOC (and thus bring in more money). We have 6 of the top 12 regular college stadiums, so we generally have a little pull when it comes to home games. It may not be entirely fair, but I doubt that many in charge are scrambling to change it when it might result in fiscal loss.

I guess what I don't understand is the strength of conference argument. While having the most National Champions doesn't exactly prove we have a strong conference overall, and it is POSSIBLE that all of these teams are basically "One Hit Wonders," I think it's a bit naive to immediately jump to that conclusion. I mean, I suppose it's not end-all proof, but it does strongly support our argument that the SEC is balanced. And though I don't have proof that the SEC is the best on average from top-to-bottom, do you have proof that the Pac-10 is? Actually, do you have any argument at all for the Pac-10 being the best?

I guess the best way to put it is: What is your argument exactly?

If your argument is that we can't prove that the SEC is the best from top to bottom, I agree. We can't prove it. But that's not going to stop us from hypothesizing that we are.

If your argument is that the SEC should play less cupcakes and less home games, I agree (for the most part). I don't think we should be held to a higher standard than everyone else, but I do think some of the teams in the conference, generally about half of them, schedule too many home games or OOC teams that are way too easy (Tennesse, in my opinion, did not fall into either of those categories this year). I think the cupcake problem is a lot bigger than the home game problem, mostly because home game advantages for the most part only largely affect games played between teams of near equal skill. But this problem can be seen throughout almost all AQ conferences.

If your argument is that the Pac-10 IS the best conference from top to bottom, I disagree. I obviously can't prove they aren't, but I don't think anyone could prove that they are.

If your argument is anything else... I don't really get it. :)
 
#80
#80
Pac Ten #1??? The Pac Ten had a horrible year. After Oregon and Stanford, the other 8 teams are either medicore or really bad.
 
#82
#82
Btw, Sagarin has the SEC as the best conference... Again. Do you hold that as a truth as well?

Rating systems aren't about "a truth" beyond what/how they measure.

But, yes, I think that Sagarin offers a sound, objective method for comparing teams based on what happens on the field. By that measure, the SEC has been the best so far. It shows the SEC and Pac-10 being very closely matched, top-to-bottom, this year.

It's funny you consider Clemson a cupcake when they've accomplished something half the Pac-10 couldn't. Become eligible for a bowl game. :birgits_giggle:

A lot more Pac-10 teams would be bowl eligible if they played 4 cupcake games, 8 home games and only needed to win 3 conference games to be in.

Auburn vs. Alabama, the most viewed game this college football season, was a glorified spring game? :loco:

And the 6 different times Auburn played a ranked team was what exactly if they weren't quality wins?

8 home games. 4 cupcakes.

A lot more Pac-10 teams would be bowl eligible if they played 4 cupcake games, 8 home games and only needed to win 3 conference games to be in.

I suppose I can sort of understand complaining about all conferences other than the SEC playing less conference matchups each year (this really depends on how you view the bottom teams of the conference. Some could argue that they would rather play 9 of the 10 Pac-10 schools rather than 7 of the top 10 SEC schools and either the 11th or 12th team, because only a lucky couple or few usually get to play both...). From my understanding, however, the Pac-10 chose the format recently and willingly, so I don't really see how anyone from the Pac-10 can complain about it.

My position is more of a criticism of the system that rewards scheduling cupcakes. I see them as open spots for quality games. The NFL doesn't need cupcakes to fill a much longer regular season. Fans seem to be like lemmings that willingly go off a cliff. Why do people tolerate the crappy product that is a cupcake game?

I'm glad that the Pac-10 chose to keep playing more conference games. I'm getting more for my dollar on season tickets that way. But, it's not right that, by the Pac-10 choosing to play more difficult schedules (and delivering more quality games to fans), the programs end up paying a penalty for it at bowl time. It should be the other way around. I'd love to see a system that has every program scrambling to fill their OOC schedule with the best teams in the nation. There's really no reason it shouldn't work that way.

I guess what I don't understand is the strength of conference argument. While having the most National Champions doesn't exactly prove we have a strong conference overall, and it is POSSIBLE that all of these teams are basically "One Hit Wonders," I think it's a bit naive to immediately jump to that conclusion. I mean, I suppose it's not end-all proof, but it does strongly support our argument that the SEC is balanced. And though I don't have proof that the SEC is the best on average from top-to-bottom, do you have proof that the Pac-10 is? Actually, do you have any argument at all for the Pac-10 being the best?

Comparing conference strength really boils down to what criteria. As you note, none of the criteria really can settle it without filling in blanks in some way. I think that Sagarin's rating is sound and he has SEC at #1 by a hair so far. I think that's fair.

I guess the best way to put it is: What is your argument exactly?

If your argument is that we can't prove that the SEC is the best from top to bottom, I agree. We can't prove it. But that's not going to stop us from hypothesizing that we are.

The conversation has kind of gone in a couple directions. But, yes, that is the limit of my point about the SEC. I think people should debate and hypothesize about who is best, etc. and don't begrudge them for doing so. My argument about relative conference strength is in defense of the Pac-10 and how bowl eligibility is not an equal indication between conferences due to the scheduling differences.

If your argument is that the SEC should play less cupcakes and less home games, I agree (for the most part). I don't think we should be held to a higher standard than everyone else, but I do think some of the teams in the conference, generally about half of them, schedule too many home games or OOC teams that are way too easy (Tennesse, in my opinion, did not fall into either of those categories this year). I think the cupcake problem is a lot bigger than the home game problem, mostly because home game advantages for the most part only largely affect games played between teams of near equal skill. But this problem can be seen throughout almost all AQ conferences.

I think we pretty much agree on all points, actually.
 
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#83
#83
Rating systems aren't about "a truth" beyond what/how they measure.

But, yes, I think that Sagarin offers a sound, objective method for comparing teams based on what happens on the field. By that measure, the SEC has been the best so far. It shows the SEC and Pac-10 being very closely matched, top-to-bottom, this year.



A lot more Pac-10 teams would be bowl eligible if they played 4 cupcake games, 8 home games and only needed to win 3 conference games to be in.



8 home games. 4 cupcakes.

A lot more Pac-10 teams would be bowl eligible if they played 4 cupcake games, 8 home games and only needed to win 3 conference games to be in.



My position is more of a criticism of the system that rewards scheduling cupcakes. I see them as open spots for quality games. The NFL doesn't need cupcakes to fill a much longer regular season. Fans seem to be like lemmings that willingly go off a cliff. Why do people tolerate the crappy product that is a cupcake game?

I'm glad that the Pac-10 chose to keep playing more conference games. I'm getting more for my dollar on season tickets that way. But, it's not right that, by the Pac-10 choosing to play more difficult schedules (and delivering more quality games to fans), the programs end up paying a penalty for it at bowl time. It should be the other way around. I'd love to see a system that has every program scrambling to fill their OOC schedule with the best teams in the nation. There's really no reason it shouldn't work that way.



Comparing conference strength really boils down to what criteria. As you note, none of the criteria really can settle it without filling in blanks in some way. I think that Sagarin's rating is sound and he has SEC at #1 by a hair so far. I think that's fair.



The conversation has kind of gone in a couple directions. But, yes, that is the limit of my point about the SEC. I think people should debate and hypothesize about who is best, etc. and don't begrudge them for doing so. My argument about relative conference strength is in defense of the Pac-10 and how bowl eligibility is not an equal indication between conferences due to the scheduling differences.



I think we pretty much agree on all points, actually.

So then you agree with the notion that the SEC is the best conference in the nation? It's a yes or no question.
 
#84
#84
Too early to say, everyone thought the Pac-10 was one of the strongest at this point last year, then it lost five of its seven bowl games. The year before that the Pac-10 was considered weak and then went 5-0 in bowls.
 
#85
#85
Too early to say, everyone thought the Pac-10 was one of the strongest at this point last year, then it lost five of its seven bowl games. The year before that the Pac-10 was considered weak and then went 5-0 in bowls.

Na, it's not too early to tell. More than half the conference has a record of .500 or below. Only 4 teams will represent the conference in the post season. There's only two Pac-10 teams ranked in the final rankings. The top two teams in the conference, between them, have a single win over a top 25 team. Plus, the conference has a losing OOC record(best OOC win was over 7-5 Iowa).


It really sucks.
 
#86
#86
What are you talking about, the Pac-10 went 21-10 OOC, 14-10 if you take out FCS.

The SEC is better this year but the scheduling helps a lot. And you may not be as good as you think, that's why I said you should wait and see. Like in 2008 when the Big-12 South was hung like an elephant, then Texas scraped by Ohio St, Oklahoma lost, TTech lost and Oklahoma St. lost. They were all ranked in the top 13 beforehand.
 
#87
#87
What are you talking about, the Pac-10 went 21-10 OOC, 14-10 if you take out FCS.

The SEC is better this year but the scheduling helps a lot. And you may not be as good as you think, that's why I said you should wait and see. Like in 2008 when the Big-12 South was hung like an elephant, then Texas scraped by Ohio St, Oklahoma lost, TTech lost and Oklahoma St. lost. They were all ranked in the top 13 beforehand.

I stand corrected. When I tallied the wins and losses, I factored out FCS programs, and programs under .500. My fault.

Don't get me wrong. The SEC is down this season. Far weaker than it typically is, and they could possibly leave the bowl season with a losing record.

That doesn't mean the Pac-10 doesn't suck.
 
#89
#89
So then you agree with the notion that the SEC is the best conference in the nation? It's a yes or no question.

It's a poorly formed question given the context of what we've already discussed.

Best conference according to what measure? There is no "best". Best at what?
 
#90
#90
It's a poorly formed question given the context of what we've already discussed.

Best conference according to what measure? There is no "best". Best at what?

Sagarin's ratings, which you cling to with uncanny desperation and attempt to use as a reference point when arguing in favor of the Pac-10's supremacy. But of course, now that he has the SEC as the best conference in the nation, your argument is what?
 
#92
#92
Dude. You need help. I already answered that question more than once now.

Concession accepted. :thumbsup:


(I'm gonna pretend like you didn't say Stanford was the best team in the country the other day because Sagarin had them there)
 
#93
#93
I said that Stanford deserved the #1 rating at that point in the season based on the criteria that Sagarin measures and explained how no rating can determine the "best team" every time.

But, go ahead and pretend whatever you like about it. It seems that you pretend a lot.
 
#94
#94
I said that Stanford deserved the #1 rating at that point in the season based on the criteria that Sagarin measures and explained how no rating can determine the "best team" every time.

Ok. So then you agree with Sargarin when he says the SEC is the best conference in the land?

It's a yes or no question.
 
#97
#97
Right now, they rate the highest according to Sagarin. And I think that's fair at this point in the season given what they've done.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm not comfortable with that?

Maybe I'm not the person you want me to be and you should seek out someone who better fits into your internal melodrama.
 
#98
#98
Right now, they rate the highest according to Sagarin. And I think that's fair at this point in the season given what they've done.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm not comfortable with that?

Maybe I'm not the person you want me to be and you should seek out someone who better fits into your internal melodrama.

Ok.:eek:k:
 
#99
#99
Well, anyways...

Thanks for the discussion, wheaton. While I don't agree with some of Sagarin's methods or all of your opinions, I respect your thoughts and I think you make some pretty good points about OOC opponents and/or number of conference games. I really wouldn't mind the SEC going to nine conference games if we ever add more teams to the conference. I still think the SEC is the best on average from the top to bottom, I concede that it really can't be proven. I think the Pac-10 is a nice conference that could potentially match the SEC, provided that some of the middling and lower ranked teams beefed up. And I actually think that your best team this year may beat out our best team (I'll be rooting for the Ducks--they are probably my second favorite team in college football and I can't wait to make it up to Eugene for the 2013 matchup). It's actually a shame that the SEC and Pac-10 are so far apart and play so rarely, because I think some nice matchups could be made.
 
It's a poorly formed question given the context of what we've already discussed.

Best conference according to what measure? There is no "best". Best at what?

BCS Championships are a pretty good measuring stick.

It's a flawed system but it's what we have for now.

I'm not an SEC homer by any means, but it is what it is.
 

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