Abortion Rights

#956
#956
therealUT said:
You are for government prohibition of abortion at least in cases in which the mother's life is not at risk, hasn't been raped, and not incest, right?
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for the most part yes. I would say if she was a willing participant in the incest no dice, but her dad raping her doesn't grant a special case to protect the baby.

also, I should note that I think it is still morally wrong to abort in those cases, but I have no problem with society making those cases. I shouldn't judge at all, but in those cases I definitely reserve judgement, and I would not prohibit the woman from doing so.
 
#957
#957
LouderVol said:
for the most part yes. I would say if she was a willing participant in the incest no dice, but her dad raping her doesn't grant a special case to protect the baby.

also, I should note that I think it is still morally wrong to abort in those cases, but I have no problem with society making those cases. I shouldn't judge at all, but in those cases I definitely reserve judgement, and I would not prohibit the woman from doing so.
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Right, so, in most cases, you support the use of force to prevent abortions.
 
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#959
#959
therealUT said:
You should now begin to reflect on the question and your answer.

I was raised Catholic, still go to Mass (I love the theater of it), and my wife and I routinely hangout with priests and monks. Don't worry, they didn't have a good response when they ran into this problem situation, either.

Francis probably has the best approach, which is simply that there are more pressing concerns in the world at this moment in time.
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what specifically should I reflect on? 99% sure I have reflected on all of this before. I am Catholic, but not religious. I share the Catholic faith, but have no quandaries with the faults of the church.
 
#961
#961
LouderVol said:
what specifically should I reflect on? 99% sure I have reflected on all of this before. I am Catholic, but not religious. I share the Catholic faith, but have no quandaries with the faults of the church.
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God's power and his allowance of abortion, murder, etc
 
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#962
#962
therealUT said:
Right, so, in most cases, you support the use of force to prevent abortions.
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no. in my world you won't be able to jail women who want to get an abortion. Can't police thoughts. only the actual action. sure have a cop car sitting out there ready to arrest them, but a physical response is still not a good solution.

prohibition never works from the government, (laws) but changing society's outlook on a topic yields results (morals). see cigarette smoking.

I would be fine with the government being mum on the subject and not providing money for it, and not arresting/fining. I don't like that my money goes to groups that perform abortions. I tackle the guilt of association by donating to alternate options.
 
#964
#964
LouderVol said:
no. in my world you won't be able to jail women who want to get an abortion. Can't police thoughts. only the actual action. sure have a cop car sitting out there ready to arrest them, but a physical response is still not a good solution.

prohibition never works from the government, (laws) but changing society's outlook on a topic yields results (morals). see cigarette smoking.

I would be fine with the government being mum on the subject and not providing money for it, and not arresting/fining. I don't like that my money goes to groups that perform abortions. I tackle the guilt of association by donating to alternate options.
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So, in your world, you wouldn't shut down abortion clinics, but you would jail the provider right afterwards?

So, you would let the baby die?
 
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#968
#968
therealUT said:
So, in your world, you wouldn't shut down abortion clinics, but you would jail the provider right afterwards?

So, you would let the baby die?
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no in my world the baby is saved.

my middle ground the baby still dies but we don't pay for it.

where we are now is pretty dang bad. worse still is China in requiring it. Any step in the right direction needs to be taken.
 
#969
#969
therealUT said:
Good, I was hoping you would respond with this. So, why do you want the government to then restrict free will?
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restrict? I have said time and again no thought policing. we are responsible for our actions. you murder someone you are responsible.
 
#971
#971
LouderVol said:
restrict? I have said time and again no thought policing. we are responsible for our actions. you murder someone you are responsible.
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Yes, you want to control behavior through force. This is a restriction of liberty and, as such, a restriction of free will.

Thus, my question is, if God allows individuals to act in morally wrong ways because liberty and free will are just so good, then why do you, who are less good than God, want to restrict liberty and free will?

Aquinas speaks to this very problem and it is why his political philosophy is one in which he explicitly asserts that the government should not be in the business of outlawing certain behavior merely because it is morally wrong. Instead, the government should outlaw some morally wrong behavior because it is necessary in order to maintain a stable society and the common weal.

I am fine with restricting some liberty and free will for the sake of a stable society because liberty and free will without a stable society are useless, as you are rendered to a state of nature in which you are only pursuing your basic needs (i.e., you basically live life as a beast).

The Catholic and Christian focus on abortion over the past 60 years is not only asinine from a non-Catholic and non-Christian viewpoint, but it is asinine from the viewpoint of more than a thousand years of Catholic and Christian thought.
 
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#974
#974
therealUT said:
Yes, you want to control behavior through force. This is a restriction of liberty and, as such, a restriction of free will.

Thus, my question is, if God allows individuals to act in morally wrong ways because liberty and free will are just so good, then why do you, who are less good than God, want to restrict liberty and free will?

Aquinas speaks to this very problem and it is why his political philosophy is one in which he explicitly asserts that the government should not be in the business of outlawing certain behavior merely because it is morally wrong. Instead, the government should outlaw some morally wrong behavior because it is necessary in order to maintain a stable society and the common weal.

I am fine with restricting some liberty and free will for the sake of a stable society because liberty and free will without a stable society are useless, as you are rendered to a state of nature in which you are only pursuing your basic needs (i.e., you basically live life as a beast).

The Catholic and Christian focus on abortion over the past 60 years is not only asinine from a non-Catholic and non-Christian viewpoint, but it is asinine from the viewpoint of more than a thousand years of Catholic and Christian thought.
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are you fine with policing murder? yes or no.
 
#975
#975
LouderVol said:
we are back the common theme of God allows bad stuff so he must either not be: all powerful, all good, or exist at all, nonsense.
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I think the problem of evil is easily avoidable. The problem arises when you are committed to believing that good things must strive to eliminate evil things. Without that commitment, the problem of evil never rears its head.

You and Roust are committed to that view, though. I'm not. So, although I do not believe that such a God exists, were I to believe it, my belief would not run into the problem.
 
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