Abortion Rights

[LouderVol]

And yet another way to say that is that you are valuing the freedom of one being at the expense of another.

You are doing this by forcing the one being to sacrifice its freedom in an attempt to ensure the survival of a second.

You really don't see the overlap do you?

Should pregnant women be permitted to smoke?
drink?
skydive?
box?
drink pennyroyal tea?
Parsley tea?

yeah sure I see it. and yes I still place more value in LIFE than FREEDOM to TAKE LIFE. so yes I am willing to inhibit someone else's absolute freedom if you perversely want to argue one has the right to take another's life.

no one should smoke.
everyone should only drink a little.
skydive I wouldnt do close to the due date but otherwise have fun.
box move the belt about a foot higher and go for it I guess.
no idea about the teas, but I am guessing due to their inclusion they are bad if you drink too much, so see my answer on alcohol.

what guarantees does killing a fetus give? Does it curtail the offending action? does the woman suddenly have a better life? or is she going to continue to sit where she is, not learning any lesson?

 

[ClearwaterVol]

yeah sure I see it. and yes I still place more value in LIFE than FREEDOM to TAKE LIFE. so yes I am willing to inhibit someone else's absolute freedom if you perversely want to argue one has the right to take another's life.

no one should smoke.
everyone should only drink a little.
skydive I wouldnt do close to the due date but otherwise have fun.
box move the belt about a foot higher and go for it I guess.
no idea about the teas, but I am guessing due to their inclusion they are bad if you drink too much, so see my answer on alcohol.

what guarantees does killing a fetus give? Does it curtail the offending action? does the woman suddenly have a better life? or is she going to continue to sit where she is, not learning any lesson?

So, now the being in gestation has rights superior to that of the being who you are forcing to carry it to term?

The right isn't to kill a being. The right is to live one's life how one sees fit while maintaining autonomy over ones own body. Why shouldn't a pregnant person be permitted to remove the mass of cells? Not kill it. Just remove it.

 

[Orangeslice13]

So, now the being in gestation has rights superior to that of the being who you are forcing to carry it to term?

The right isn't to kill a being. The right is to live one's life how one sees fit while maintaining autonomy over ones own body. Why shouldn't a pregnant person be permitted to remove the mass of cells? Not kill it. Just remove it.

If that were possible then there wouldn’t be a debate.
Removal is killing.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

If that were possible then there wouldn’t be a debate.
Removal is killing.

No, it is simply refusing to be an incubator.

 

[Orangeslice13]

No, it is simply refusing to be an incubator.

Refusing to be an incubator would be use of birth control.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

no one should smoke.
everyone should only drink a little.
skydive I wouldnt do close to the due date but otherwise have fun.
box move the belt about a foot higher and go for it I guess.
no idea about the teas, but I am guessing due to their inclusion they are bad if you drink too much, so see my answer on alcohol.

LouderLand sounds really fuggin' lame.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

Refusing to be an incubator would be use of birth control.

More than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Orangeslice13]

More than one way to skin a cat.

Now we’re killing cats too?

 

[therealUT]

Now we’re killing cats too?

I would be more pissed off if someone killed my cat than if they killed their kid.

While some will react with indignation to this claim, I suspect that deep down they'd feel the same way with regard to their cat, dog, car, house, etc.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Yeah, I'm okay with infanticide, .

At what point then does it become unacceptable? In TRUTs world.

 

[therealUT]

At what point then does it become unacceptable? In TRUTs world.

Infanticide? Never.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

And yet another way to say that is that you are valuing the freedom of one being at the expense of another.

You are doing this by forcing the one being to sacrifice its freedom in an attempt to ensure the survival of a second.

You really don't see the overlap do you?

Should pregnant women be permitted to smoke?
drink?
skydive?
box?
drink pennyroyal tea?
Parsley tea?

Permitted?

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Infanticide? Never.

Define it. When is it no longer infanticide?

And you need to explain what you meant by:

Yeah, I'm okay with infanticide, per se, in the same sense that I'm okay with cock fighting.

 

[therealUT]

Define it. When is it no longer infanticide?

And you need to explain what you meant by:

When the individual has personhood.

I find it repugnant but don't see it as necessarily immoral nor as something that should be outlawed.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

When the individual has personhood.

I find it repugnant but don't see it as necessarily immoral nor as something that should be outlawed.

Define personhood.

Oh, and I take it that you are anti death penalty?

 

[therealUT]

Define personhood.

Oh, and I take it that you are anti death penalty?

I've defined personhood. I've also provided the response to problems of discovery.

I'm not categorically anti death penalty. I just think most of the arguments for it are pretty bad.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

I've defined personhood. I've also provided the response to problems of discovery.

I'm not categorically anti death penalty. I just think most of the arguments for it are pretty bad.

Well, OK then. I guess then our conversation has ended because I am not going to go thru this (or whatever other thread) you provided those definitions to find them.

 

[therealUT]

Well, OK then. I guess then our conversation has ended because I am not going to go thru this (or whatever other thread) you provided those definitions to find them.

It's in this thread. Just use the search function.

 

[LouderVol]

So, now the being in gestation has rights superior to that of the being who you are forcing to carry it to term?

The right isn't to kill a being. The right is to live one's life how one sees fit while maintaining autonomy over ones own body. Why shouldn't a pregnant person be permitted to remove the mass of cells? Not kill it. Just remove it.

because by the time you can abort (can't be detected until it is embedded in the uterus) is has gone beyond a clump of cells. also I still very much doubt too many abortions happen within the first 2 weeks. again this gets overlooked so often its comical. People always ask for a point, for me it is that, when the woman becomes a mom, because at that point the fetus is dependent on the mother.

what happens when you remove that fetus, it dies right? Thats the point right? To live autonomously sure sounds like you don't want to deal with another life. you gave up that right when you had sex, and yes I place the same restriction on the dad. people should be held accountable for their actions, I don't care if its an oops or not, its a life. everyone keeps wanting to use other terms (clump of cells) to avoid dealing with the reality of the situation.

those gestating cells are a different life form from the mom. its not just her body. no where else does the "oops" factor come into play. Officer, I wasn't planning on getting drunk and getting a DUI. I was just having 1 drink, honest. then my friends talked me into more. so its not my fault. doesn't fly. vehicular manslaughter. your rights stop at someone else's.

 

[LouderVol]

LouderLand sounds really fuggin' lame.

you don't want to skydive, while boxing with a slight buzz?

and that was merely a health debate, not a moral/legal one.

 

[tumscalcium]

When the individual has personhood.

I find it repugnant but don't see it as necessarily immoral nor as something that should be outlawed.

Woman is breastfeeding baby. Man walks up and stabs baby in head and kills it.

You’re cool with that from a legal standpoint? You just find it repugnant?

 

[LouderVol]

I would be more pissed off if someone killed my cat than if they killed their kid.

While some will react with indignation to this claim, I suspect that deep down they'd feel the same way with regard to their cat, dog, car, house, etc.

qftr, I am done with this conversation. at least with Trut.

 

[rjd970]

because by the time you can abort (can't be detected until it is embedded in the uterus) is has gone beyond a clump of cells. also I still very much doubt too many abortions happen within the first 2 weeks. again this gets overlooked so often its comical. People always ask for a point, for me it is that, when the woman becomes a mom, because at that point the fetus is dependent on the mother.

what happens when you remove that fetus, it dies right? Thats the point right? To live autonomously sure sounds like you don't want to deal with another life. you gave up that right when you had sex, and yes I place the same restriction on the dad. people should be held accountable for their actions, I don't care if its an oops or not, its a life. everyone keeps wanting to use other terms (clump of cells) to avoid dealing with the reality of the situation.

those gestating cells are a different life form from the mom. its not just her body. no where else does the "oops" factor come into play. Officer, I wasn't planning on getting drunk and getting a DUI. I was just having 1 drink, honest. then my friends talked me into more. so its not my fault. doesn't fly. vehicular manslaughter. your rights stop at someone else's.

So, theoretically, I take it you would be completely fine if someone wanted to fertilize as many eggs as they want, over and over again, for the sole purpose of harvesting embryonic stem cells? This is done, btw, in the blastocytic stage, before uterus implantation.

 

[therealUT]

Woman is breastfeeding baby. Man walks up and stabs baby in head and kills it.

You’re cool with that from a legal standpoint? You just find it repugnant?

I see it as a property crime. And, I actually think we can be morally justified in putting someone away, for life, or even sentencing them to death for some property crimes.

 

[therealUT]

qftr, I am done with this conversation. at least with Trut.

So, you turn on the news tonight and you see a report about children being slaughtered in Syria.

You wake up tomorrow morning to find that your car has been torched.

Which are you more pissed off and upset about?

If you say the children that were slaughtered in Syria, then I'm going to assume you are simply lying to save face.