Alex Jones

#26
#26
PKT_VOL said:
If you want to get real philosophical, everything is subjective.

However, you would have to have some messed up values to believe GMO and vaccines are somehow evil or bad.
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How do you address these points about vaccines:

- the incidences of death from the vaccinated illness in almost every case dropped to modern levels before vaccines were ever used

- in the case of an outbreak, most of the people who contract the disease have been vaccinated

One other point: "science" is not supposed to be subjective. If the value can't be solidly proven, then how can you classify it as science at all?
 
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#27
#27
jamesd1628 said:
Why should people hate Monsanto?
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Monsanto has patented farming techniques that they didn't invent. Some of these techniques have been used for centuries all over the world. We force our intellectual property laws onto impoverished countries (like Iraq, and India), and it makes food unaffordable thus people starve.
 
#28
#28
jamesd1628 said:
How do you address these points about vaccines:

- the incidences of death from the vaccinated illness in almost every case dropped to modern levels before vaccines were ever used

- in the case of an outbreak, most of the people who contract the disease have been vaccinated

One other point: "science" is not supposed to be subjective. If the value can't be solidly proven, then how can you classify it as science at all?
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To make this a little more forum appropriate, weren't you the guy that watched 5 1/2 seasons of Lost and still though it was all aliens? If so, I can't take anything you say seriously.
 
#29
#29
jamesd1628 said:
How do you address these points about vaccines:

- the incidences of death from the vaccinated illness in almost every case dropped to modern levels before vaccines were ever used

- in the case of an outbreak, most of the people who contract the disease have been vaccinated

One other point: "science" is not supposed to be subjective. If the value can't be solidly proven, then how can you classify it as science at all?
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This post is beyond stupid.

I will use just one illness to debunk both of your points. Just one.

In 1958 there were 763,094 cases of measles and 552 deaths in the United States. With the help of new vaccines, the number of cases dropped to fewer than 150 per year (median of 56). In early 2008, there were 64 suspected cases of measles. 54 out of 64 infections were associated with importation from another country, although only 13% were actually acquired outside of the United States; 63 of these 64 individuals either had never been vaccinated against measles, or were uncertain whether they had been vaccinated. Maurice Hilleman's measles vaccine is estimated to prevent 1 million deaths every year.
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#30
#30
Roughneck said:
To make this a little more forum appropriate, weren't you the guy that watched 5 1/2 seasons of Lost and still though it was all aliens? If so, I can't take anything you say seriously.
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The idea that the fiction TV show Lost and/or my opinions on the show have any bearing whatsoever on this discussion is hilarious. Really.
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#31
#31
jamesd1628 said:
The idea that the fiction TV show Lost and/or my opinions on the show have any bearing whatsoever on this discussion is hilarious. Really.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Do you have any opinions on the correlation between vaccines and the ability to recognize a joke?
 
#34
#34
Anybody can play that game.
Measles_US_1944-2007_inset.png

The most important part of both graphs is what happens after the vaccine is introduced. Prevention is the key.
 
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#35
#35
Roughneck said:
Anybody can play that game.
Measles_US_1944-2007_inset.png

The most important part of both graphs is what happens after the vaccine is introduced. Prevention is the key.
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Yours sites measles cases, where mine sites measles deaths. Think about that, because it's important.

And you're right, anybody can play that game. A wise person once told me that there are three kinds of lies: (i) lies; (ii) damn lies; and (iii) statistics. In my opinion, if someone wants to inject me and/or my children with something, the burden is upon them to convince me that the substance provides a benefit. I have yet to see any convincing evidence from the vaccine camp. Only lies, damn lies and grossly biased statistics.
 
#36
#36
jamesd1628 said:
Yours sites measles cases, where mine sites measles deaths. Think about that, because it's important.

And you're right, anybody can play that game. A wise person once told me that there are three kinds of lies: (i) lies; (ii) damn lies; and (iii) statistics. In my opinion, if someone wants to inject me and/or my children with something, the burden is upon them to convince me that the substance provides a benefit. I have yet to see any convincing evidence from the vaccine camp. Only lies, damn lies and grossly biased statistics.
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The evidence is to the right of the arrow. Whether it is just measles or death from measles, you can't deny that things are clearly better since the vaccination was introduced.
 
#37
#37
Roughneck said:
The evidence is to the right of the arrow. Whether it is just measles or death from measles, you can't deny that things are clearly better since the vaccination was introduced.
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That may be true, but did the vaccine cause the improvement? Correlation does not equal causation. I can't help but notice that the statistics quoted in favor of the vaccine tend to focus on a very narrow window of time. Suspicious at best. A common deception: focus only on what tends to support your point.
 
#38
#38
jamesd1628 said:
That may be true, but did the vaccine cause the improvement? Correlation does not equal causation. I can't help but notice that the statistics quoted in favor of the vaccine tend to focus on a very narrow window of time. Suspicious at best. A common deception: focus only on what tends to support your point.
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1944-2007 isn't a narrow window of time. So if it wasn't the vaccine, what miraculous event has managed to make measles(amongst other things) disappear?
 
#39
#39
Roughneck said:
1944-2007 isn't a narrow window of time. So if it wasn't the vaccine, what miraculous event has managed to make measles(amongst other things) disappear?
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Well I don't know, what miraculous event happened between 1900 and 1944, when the rates dropped even more dramatically, before the vaccine was ever introduced? Maybe overall improvements to healthcare in general?

I'll say it again: the death rate of all vaccinated illnesses dropped to near modern levels prior to the introduction of the corresponding vaccine. What cased the drops? Obviously not the vaccines.
 
#40
#40
jamesd1628 said:
A common deception: focus only on what tends to support your point.
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Roughneck said:
1944-2007 isn't a narrow window of time. So if it wasn't the vaccine, what miraculous event has managed to make measles(amongst other things) disappear?
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jamesd1628 said:
Well I don't know, what miraculous event happened between 1900 and 1944, when the rates dropped even more dramatically, before the vaccine was ever introduced?
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I see what you did there.

Also, British Doctor Faked Data Linking Vaccines to Autism, and Aimed to Profit From It | Popular Science
 
#41
#41
Roughneck said:
I see what you did there.

Also, British Doctor Faked Data Linking Vaccines to Autism, and Aimed to Profit From It | Popular Science
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I'm not really sure what you're suggesting. My suggested approach to analyzing this data would be to look at as much of it as possible, going back as far as possible. When you do that, it seems fairly obvious that the vast majority of the drop in death rates occurred prior to introduction of the vaccine.

Your approach, on the other hand, focuses only on the data after 1944 and makes it appear that the the vaccine causes a drop after its introduced in the 60s. I'm simply suggesting that the drop that occurred after the vaccine was introduced might have occurred for the same reason(s) that caused a much more significant drop before the vaccine was ever introduced. Nothing in the data you presented convinces me that the vaccines did anything at all.

As for the article you linked, I haven't argued that vaccines cause autism (though such an argument could be made), only that I see no evidence that vaccines provide any benefit whatsoever. And if you want to start talking about faked data, there is plenty of it out there on the other side of the aisle too.
 
#42
#42
Do you understand what prevention means? That's all the case for vaccinations that you need. Just look at measles in places like India where it is killing children everyday but is getting better due to vaccines.
 
#43
#43
Roughneck said:
Do you understand what prevention means? That's all the case for vaccinations that you need. Just look at measles in places like India where it is killing children everyday but is getting better due to vaccines.
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Are you talking about actual prevention or some kind of "just in case" mentality? I understand what prevention means. Actual prevention. I'm arguing that there is no evidence that a vaccine prevents anything. If things are improving in India, maybe its for reasons other than vaccines. There is clear evidence that significant disease reduction has been achieved without vaccines. The vaccines just show up after the show to take credit and provide pharma companies with a big and perpetually endless payout.
 
#44
#44
jamesd1628 said:
Are you talking about actual prevention or some kind of "just in case" mentality? I understand what prevention means. Actual prevention. I'm arguing that there is no evidence that a vaccine prevents anything. If things are improving in India, maybe its for reasons other than vaccines. There is clear evidence that significant disease reduction has been achieved without vaccines. The vaccines just show up after the show to take credit and provide pharma companies with a big and perpetually endless payout.
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Do you live in a bunker?
 
#45
#45
jamesd1628 said:
View attachment 49839
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Sigh.

There is a big difference between "mortality rates" and "cases". Hopefully you are smart enough to know the difference.

Did you catch the fact that despite the fact that vaccines have virtually wiped out Measles, those few cases every year are almost exclusively with people who received no vaccine?

Are you truly perpetuating the notion that vaccines are more harmful that good? Do you truly believe that?
 
#46
#46
PKT_VOL said:
Sigh.

There is a big difference between "mortality rates" and "cases". Hopefully you are smart enough to know the difference.

Did you catch the fact that despite the fact that vaccines have virtually wiped out Measles, those few cases every year are almost exclusively with people who received no vaccine?

Are you truly perpetuating the notion that vaccines are more harmful that good? Do you truly believe that?
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" . . . those few cases every year are almost exclusively with people who received no vaccine." This is patently false.

fig19_measles_outbreak_in_highly_vaccinated_population.jpg

"Are you truly perpetuating the notion that vaccines are more harmful that good?" I believe that I could make that argument, but that is not the argument that I have made here. I have argued that there is no evidence that vaccines provide any benefit whatsoever.
 
#49
#49
Here's one from the mighty CDC itself: Measles Outbreak among Vaccinated High School Students -- Illinois

And I quote:

"From December 9, 1983, to January 13, 1984, 21 cases of measles occurred in Sangamon County, Illinois.* Nine of the cases were confirmed serologically. The outbreak involved 16 high school students, all of whom had histories of measles vaccination after 15 months of age documented in their school health records. Of the five remaining cases, four occurred in unvaccinated preschool children, two of whom were under 15 months of age, and one case occurred in a previously vaccinated college student (Figure 5)."
 
#50
#50
jamesd1628 said:
" . . . those few cases every year are almost exclusively with people who received no vaccine." This is patently false.

View attachment 49854
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Sigh.

CDC:

Measles --- United States, January 1--April 25, 2008

Measles, a highly contagious acute viral disease, can result in serious complications and death. As a result of a successful U.S. vaccination program, measles elimination (i.e., interruption of endemic measles transmission) was declared in the United States in 2000 (1). The number of reported measles cases has declined from 763,094 in 1958 to fewer than 150 cases reported per year since 1997 (1). During 2000--2007,* a total of 29--116 measles cases (mean: 62, median: 56) were reported annually. However, during January 1--April 25, 2008, a total of 64 confirmed measles cases were preliminarily reported to CDC, the most reported by this date for any year since 2001. Of the 64 cases, 54 were associated with importation of measles from other countries into the United States, and 63 of the 64 patients were unvaccinated or had unknown or undocumented vaccination status. This report describes the 64 cases and provides guidance for preventing measles transmission and controlling outbreaks through vaccination, infection control, and rapid public health response. Because these cases resulted from importations and occurred almost exclusively in unvaccinated persons, the findings underscore the ongoing risk for measles among unvaccinated persons and the importance of maintaining high levels of vaccination.
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Honestly, it is laughable that we are even having this discussion.

jamesd1628 said:
"Are you truly perpetuating the notion that vaccines are more harmful that good?" I believe that I could make that argument, but that is not the argument that I have made here. I have argued that there is no evidence that vaccines provide any benefit whatsoever.
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Why is it that all those once horrible diseases are pretty much nonexistent today? Magic?
 
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