All things STOCKS

[Firebirdparts]

As long as you have 2 to 3 years of cash to sit around and service your debt you are fine.

The old fashioned way, where you jumped out a window on the 12th floor, was a bit different. People used to borrow from their brokers. The brokers had damage control actions to save themselves which would liquidate your account when your stocks dropped. Nowadays, you can just buy leveraged ETFs instead of borrowing. You can’t get a margin call from that.

But more importantly, this idea that Aunt Molly lost everything requires either individual stocks which go to zero (very common) or something like a 2x margin account holding something that lost 50%. That’s the only reason I mentioned it.

 

[Fun coupon VOL]

The old fashioned way, where you jumped out a window on the 12th floor, was a bit different. People used to borrow from their brokers. The brokers had damage control actions to save themselves which would liquidate your account when your stocks dropped. Nowadays, you can just buy leveraged ETFs instead of borrowing. You can’t get a margin call from that.

But more importantly, this idea that Aunt Molly lost everything requires either individual stocks which go to zero (very common) or something like a 2x margin account holding something that lost 50%. That’s the only reason I mentioned it.

Yea that was my fault. I was thinking mortgage instead of stocks. Had a buddy who lost all of his crypto leveraging it.

 

[Velo Vol]

Fed pivot.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

The old fashioned way, where you jumped out a window on the 12th floor, was a bit different. People used to borrow from their brokers. The brokers had damage control actions to save themselves which would liquidate your account when your stocks dropped. Nowadays, you can just buy leveraged ETFs instead of borrowing. You can’t get a margin call from that.

But more importantly, this idea that Aunt Molly lost everything requires either individual stocks which go to zero (very common) or something like a 2x margin account holding something that lost 50%. That’s the only reason I mentioned it.

And you can buy triple leveraged ETFs on margin. Hold my beer.

 

[mrorange211]

It's going to zero?

3200 minimum

 

[Firebirdparts]

And you can buy triple leveraged ETFs on margin. Hold my beer.

I guess we'll find out in the future whether we should have done that today. Very red day for TMF- triple leveraged long term bonds.

 

[Velo Vol]

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Calm here. Still using Vanguard Wellesley and Wellington.

It confounds me that you guys think you'll beat professionals at this game.

Isn't this like trying to go to Vegas and beat the best professionals poker players in the Aria high stakes room over the long haul? Seriously? Why?

I'm at a loss as to why???? Do you think you could do surgery better than a professional? Do you think you're a better mechanic than a professional?

Why the hell would you think you're a better at investing your money than a professional? Seriously. Someone respond.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Calm here. Still using Vanguard Wellesley and Wellington.

It confounds me that you guys think you'll beat professionals at this game.

Isn't this like trying to go to Vegas and beat the best professionals poker players in the Aria high stakes room over the long haul? Seriously? Why?

I'm at a loss as to why???? Do you think you could do surgery better than a professional? Do you think you're a better mechanic than a professional?

Why the hell would you think you're a better at investing your money than a professional? Seriously. Someone respond.

“Professionals” have regulatory hurdles to deal with. They also have to respond to the pressure of short term mentality. Most have way more scale to deal with. Individual investors can add smaller cap names to their portfolios under the radar without affecting the share price. Large fund managers can take massive positions in small and mid-size companies that are only a fraction of a percent of all of their holdings. An individual investor could easily put a third or more of their holdings in a single investment almost instantly.

Some funds can be restricted at using margin and options to enhance returns.

Fund managers have to pretty up their list of investments for publication before quarter and year ends.

Funds bleed off management fees.

Non-actively managed funds aren’t flexible and have to own many garbage companies as well.

Individuals that know what they are doing have a huge advantage managing a few million dollars over professional money managers juggling hundreds of millions or billions. They’re apples and oranges situations.

If you are referring to small, local types of investment managers rather than large fund managers, I’ll put my knowledge and experience head-to-head with any of them. They are primarily sales people that have to deal with many clients. The staff assigned to manage average sized accounts are often inexperienced.

On volatile days they are spending their time calming the fears of panicking unsophisticated clients rather than evaluating and acting on opportunities.

Also, individual investors aren’t prevented from adding actively managed funds to their positions. Fund buyers are also individual investors and have to typically decide which ones to own.

No. It’s nothing like competing with poker players, performing surgery, or turning a wrench. Those are bad analogies.

 

[mrorange211]

Calm here. Still using Vanguard Wellesley and Wellington.

It confounds me that you guys think you'll beat professionals at this game.

Isn't this like trying to go to Vegas and beat the best professionals poker players in the Aria high stakes room over the long haul? Seriously? Why?

I'm at a loss as to why???? Do you think you could do surgery better than a professional? Do you think you're a better mechanic than a professional?

Why the hell would you think you're a better at investing your money than a professional? Seriously. Someone respond.

Lets start: Are you fing for real?

 

[mrorange211]

Calm here. Still using Vanguard Wellesley and Wellington.

It confounds me that you guys think you'll beat professionals at this game.

Isn't this like trying to go to Vegas and beat the best professionals poker players in the Aria high stakes room over the long haul? Seriously? Why?

I'm at a loss as to why???? Do you think you could do surgery better than a professional? Do you think you're a better mechanic than a professional?

Why the hell would you think you're a better at investing your money than a professional? Seriously. Someone respond.

Lol you mean like these "professionals":

Tiger Global loses 50% of flagship hedge fund value

Blackrock lost 1.7 trillion

Are you trolling?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Professional fund managers also have to remain liquid (or sell during depressed markets) to meet customer withdrawal pressures. Individual investors only have to involuntarily sell positions if they are highly levered and receive margin calls that can’t be met by depositing more assets.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

“Professionals” have regulatory hurdles to deal with. They also have to respond to the pressure of short term mentality. Most have way more scale to deal with. Individual investors can add smaller cap names to their portfolios under the radar without affecting the share price. Large fund managers can take massive positions in small and mid-size companies that are only a fraction of a percent of all of their holdings. An individual investor could easily put a third or more of their holdings in a single investment almost instantly.

Some funds can be restricted at using margin and options to enhance returns.

Fund managers have to pretty up their list of investments for publication before quarter and year ends.

Funds bleed off management fees.

Non-actively managed funds aren’t flexible and have to own many garbage companies as well.

Individuals that know what they are doing have a huge advantage managing a few million dollars over professional money managers juggling hundreds of millions or billions. They’re apples and oranges situations.

If you are referring to small, local types of investment managers rather than large fund managers, I’ll put my knowledge and experience head-to-head with any of them. They are primarily sales people that have to deal with many clients. The staff assigned to manage average sized accounts are often inexperienced.

On volatile days they are spending their time calming the fears of panicking unsophisticated clients rather than evaluating and acting on opportunities.

Also, individual investors aren’t prevented from adding actively managed funds to their positions. Fund buyers are also individual investors and have to typically decide which ones to own.

No. It’s nothing like competing with poker players, performing surgery, or turning a wrench. Those are bad analogies.

Wellington averages 10%+ with a .25% management fee.

It's something like 8+% since 1929.

Gimme a break. Scuffle and sweat, if you wish, for that kind of return over the long haul or leave it to guys who scuffle and sweat for you for .25%.

Your call.

VWELX: Overview of the Vanguard Wellington Fund

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Wellington averages 10%+ with a .25% management fee.

It's something like 8+% since 1929.

Gimme a break. Scuffle and sweat, if you wish, for that kind of return over the long haul or leave it to guys who scuffle and sweat for you for .25%.

Your call.

VWELX: Overview of the Vanguard Wellington Fund

Wellington is fine for the risk averse and those without the ability to make their own investment decisions. $100 billion funds pretty much just mirror the performance of the index averages. Wellington is simply 2/3rds large, successful companies deleveraged by holding a third in debt. Nice and safe in market pull backs while missing opportunities on surging equities. Even 0.25% seems high for what they do.

No scuffle or sweat happening with me.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Wellington is fine for the risk averse and those without the ability to make their own investment decisions. $100 billion funds pretty much just mirror the performance of the index averages. Wellington is simply 2/3rds large, successful companies deleveraged by holding a third in debt. Nice and safe in market pull backs while missing opportunities on surging equities. Even 0.25% seems high for what they do.

No scuffle or sweat happening with me.

So you're getting 10%+ over the last few years or think your strategies will yield 8% over nearly 100 years?

C'mon. Why worry? Play with your kids and grandkids and wife and let guys who spend their lives studying managing investments handle it.

You probably spend that much on coffee.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

So you're getting 10%+ over the last few years or think your strategies will yield 8% over nearly 100 years?

C'mon. Why worry? Play with your kids and grandkids and wife and let guys who spend their lives studying managing investments handle it.

You probably spend that much on coffee.

Who says that individual investors haven’t studied just as much and can handle their own business? They don’t have to answer to clients or bosses or to regulators. They aren’t primarily concerned with growing their firm’s revenues.

8% isn’t yield. If I thought that it was then I’d certainly be better off hiring a portfolio manager to handle my investments.

8% is a nice, safe return that stays a bit ahead of inflation. But I’d prefer a double more frequently than 9 years on average.

Some have an aptitude to manage their own investments. Those that don’t or aren’t interested can leave it to others. Some people are ****** drivers. They usually have the option of hiring drivers or taking public transportation.

Those that manage their own investments aren’t prevented from buying funds. I own several dozen, but I still pick stocks. My best stock picks outperform any of the funds by a wide margin.

I’m currently studying derivatives. If I’m able to enhance my total returns by even 1% it’s time that’s been invested very well.

It’s a lot like investing in real estate. You could own directly or be a passive participant through various means. The guy that repairs his own plumbing, paints, and nails his own shingles will likely grow his initial holdings faster than the guy that participates by buying shares in a partnership holding a portfolio of rentals with triple net leases. Each to his own. I don’t get upset and attempt to troll the guys that do things differently than I would.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Who says that individual investors haven’t studied just as much and can handle their own business? They don’t have to answer to clients or bosses or to regulators. They aren’t primarily concerned with growing their firm’s revenues.

8% isn’t yield. If I thought that it was then I’d certainly be better off hiring a portfolio manager to handle my investments.

8% is a nice, safe return that stays a bit ahead of inflation. But I’d prefer a double more frequently than 9 years on average.

Some have an aptitude to manage their own investments. Those that don’t or aren’t interested can leave it to others. Some people are ****** drivers. They usually have the option of hiring drivers or taking public transportation.

Those that manage their own investments aren’t prevented from buying funds. I own several dozen, but I still pick stocks. My best stock picks outperform any of the funds by a wide margin.

I’m currently studying derivatives. If I’m able to enhance my total returns by even 1% it’s time that’s been invested very well.

It’s a lot like investing in real estate. You could own directly or be a passive participant through various means. The guy that repairs his own plumbing, paints, and nails his own shingles will likely grow his initial holdings faster than the guy that participates by buying shares in a partnership holding a portfolio of rentals with triple net leases. Each to his own. I don’t get upset and attempt to troll the guys that do things differently than I would.

Definitely, each to his own, but I'll never assume because I do my own plumbing or roofing that I'm as good as a professional plumber or roofer over the long haul.

That's the difference. If you're doing 4-5 plumbing jobs a year, sure...... you're good, do it yourself. If you've got 4-5 roofs to do over 15 years, yeah.... maybe it's worth it.

Investment management isn't that. Done correctly, it's many decisions over many years. Can you do it yourself? Sure. Will you do it, part-time while living your life, as well as a professional? No more than you'll be a plumber or roofer.

The difference?

Screw up your plumbing and call a pro and get it sorted out for a fee.

Screw up your financial strategy and you can call a pro and you're still screwed because you've wasted years of steady growth.

Why worry? As I said, enjoy your family in the evenings after work or on weekends instead of searching for "the big return" and get a decent ROI from indexed investments for freaking 0.25% fee.

Warren Buffett will tell you to do exactly that, but I suppose he knows nothing about what the average investor should do.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Definitely, each to his own, but I'll never assume because I do my own plumbing or roofing that I'm as good as a professional plumber or roofer over the long haul.

That's the difference. If you're doing 4-5 plumbing jobs a year, sure...... you're good, do it yourself. If you've got 4-5 roofs to do over 15 years, yeah.... maybe it's worth it.

Investment management isn't that. Done correctly, it's many decisions over many years. Can you do it yourself? Sure. Will you do it, part-time while living your life, as well as a professional? No more than you'll be a plumber or roofer.

The difference?

Screw up your plumbing and call a pro and get it sorted out for a fee.

Screw up your financial strategy and you can call a pro and you're still screwed because you've wasted years of steady growth.

Why worry? As I said, enjoy your family in the evenings after work or on weekends instead of searching for "the big return" and get a decent ROI from indexed investments for freaking 0.25% fee.

Warren Buffett will tell you to do exactly that, but I suppose he knows nothing about what the average investor should do.

Steady growth can be appealing for some. I never lose a minute of sleep worrying about screwing up. I understand risk/reward and take calculated risks. I’ve learned how to manage margin and haven’t had to meet a maintenance requirement since Obama’s first year in office.

Warren Buffett agrees that individual investors can easily beat the returns that large fund managers achieve. They have many advantages.

You might be confused when he warned at the 2021 BH annual meeting that NEW investors, those that are part of a record number of new stock market participants, making 30-40 trades per day aren’t necessarily on a good course. He also warned that an “average person “ can’t pick stocks. He was also addressing “gamblers” dabbling in the stock market. Most on this board don’t fit any of those descriptions.

Those that are STARTING OUT in real estate investing aren’t generally claiming to be better plumbers or roofers than those that do nothing else. But some are. A guy with a half dozen rentals can significantly enhance his bottom line by fixing broken toilets himself. Once he has a few dozen properties his time is better spent doing other things while getting others to handle maintenance.

Once an individual investor has reached a certain level of capital, it might not make sense to approach it part time. Those that have no clue what they are doing are fine to get more help.

You’re assuming that everybody participating in the thread is in identical situations. For some, it is difficult and gut wrenching and they probably haven't stuck around anyway. For many it is fun and rewarding.

My approach constantly changes. Owning 2 large, diversified funds has never been my approach to creating wealth. I also prefer to devote time to making many of my own investing decisions over the time that I spent as a CPA for woke companies. It’s far more rewarding by multiple measures.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Steady growth can be appealing for some. I never lose a minute of sleep worrying about screwing up. I understand risk/reward and take calculated risks. I’ve learned how to manage margin and haven’t had to meet a maintenance requirement since Obama’s first year in office.

Warren Buffett agrees that individual investors can easily beat the returns that large fund managers achieve. They have many advantages.

You might be confused when he warned at the 2021 BH annual meeting that NEW investors, those that are part of a record number of new stock market participants, making 30-40 trades per day aren’t necessarily on a good course. He also warned that an “average person “ can’t pick stocks. He was also addressing “gamblers” dabbling in the stock market. Most on this board don’t fit any of those descriptions.

Those that are STARTING OUT in real estate investing aren’t generally claiming to be better plumbers or roofers than those that do nothing else. But some are. A guy with a half dozen rentals can significantly enhance his bottom line by fixing broken toilets himself. Once he has a few dozen properties his time is better spent doing other things while getting others to handle maintenance.

Once an individual investor has reached a certain level of capital, it might not make sense to approach it part time. Those that have no clue what they are doing are fine to get more help.

You’re assuming that everybody participating in the thread is in identical situations. For some, it is difficult and gut wrenching and they probably haven't stuck around anyway. For many it is fun and rewarding.

My approach constantly changes. Owning 2 large, diversified funds has never been my approach to creating wealth. I also prefer to devote time to making many of my own investing decisions over the time that I spent as a CPA for woke companies. It’s far more rewarding by multiple measures.

If seasoned investors are wandering around a football forum talking about stocks, sure.

Makes perfect sense.......

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

If seasoned investors are wandering around a football forum talking about stocks, sure.

Makes perfect sense.......

Me and @Thunder Good-Oil don't always agree but he knows his stuff...even when he's wrong

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

If seasoned investors are wandering around a football forum talking about stocks, sure.

Makes perfect sense.......

I rarely set foot in the Football Forum. Vol Nation appeals to many interest groups. One good thing about discussing investments in here is that the paid stock promoters and critics don’t exist. They’re on the WallStreet Bets sub-forum and other boards. The occasional troll does wander in however.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Me and @Thunder Good-Oil don't always agree but he knows his stuff...even when he's wrong

Wrong? LOL. Impossible.

 

[OldandStillaVol]

I rarely set foot in the Football Forum. Vol Nation appeals to many interest groups. One good thing about discussing investments in here is that the paid stock promoters and critics don’t exist. They’re on the WallStreet Bets sub-forum and other boards. The occasional troll does wander in however.

Yeah, I appreciate yours and other folks’ comments even if I don’t understand everything that gets discussed.

 

[@1RBFjr]

“Professionals” have regulatory hurdles to deal with. They also have to respond to the pressure of short term mentality. Most have way more scale to deal with. Individual investors can add smaller cap names to their portfolios under the radar without affecting the share price. Large fund managers can take massive positions in small and mid-size companies that are only a fraction of a percent of all of their holdings. An individual investor could easily put a third or more of their holdings in a single investment almost instantly.

Some funds can be restricted at using margin and options to enhance returns.

Fund managers have to pretty up their list of investments for publication before quarter and year ends.

Funds bleed off management fees.

Non-actively managed funds aren’t flexible and have to own many garbage companies as well.

Individuals that know what they are doing have a huge advantage managing a few million dollars over professional money managers juggling hundreds of millions or billions. They’re apples and oranges situations.

If you are referring to small, local types of investment managers rather than large fund managers, I’ll put my knowledge and experience head-to-head with any of them. They are primarily sales people that have to deal with many clients. The staff assigned to manage average sized accounts are often inexperienced.

On volatile days they are spending their time calming the fears of panicking unsophisticated clients rather than evaluating and acting on opportunities.

Also, individual investors aren’t prevented from adding actively managed funds to their positions. Fund buyers are also individual investors and have to typically decide which ones to own.

No. It’s nothing like competing with poker players, performing surgery, or turning a wrench. Those are bad analogies.

Personally, I do what I’m comfortable with. We have individual stocks, index funds and actively managed funds. I understand options, but not well enough to give them a try (I do appreciate reading here what others they do with them, however).

We do have a full-service broker, but that’s only for part of our overall investments.

I am a buy and hold type of person. I think I have unloaded maybe two investments in the past five or six years. We accumulate.

We don’t like debt, and we have never bought on margin. Other people have different philosophies on these, and that is fine with me. I don’t try to keep up with the Joneses.

 

[Velo Vol]

Warren Buffett agrees that individual investors can easily beat the returns that large fund managers achieve. They have many advantages.

Just hold the SP500 for several years.