Alternative Fuel

#76
#76
OWB said:
I'll just add that I'm not extremely thrilled about gas prices but at the same time, I don't go around complaining about it all day every day. I'm just amazed at the amount of people that defend it because of their party interests. Amazingly, I've never seen any of you at the pumps because I rarely see anyone smiling or laughing while filling up. I'll keep an eye out though.
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I definitely do not defend it because of party interests. I actually turned to my wife just yesterday and made a comment. We were at the gas station, which had 12 pumps, and every pump was full. We had to wait in line for gas. The comment I made was that the price of gas is too low. At that gas station, the price of gas should have probably been about 10-20 cents higher per gallon, in order to reduce the demand to the supply. I feel that across the US, the price of gas should actually be about $.50-$1.00 higher than it currently is. Why? Because people would still be buying it! That is how our economy ought to work.
 
#78
#78
therealUT said:
I am not exactly sure where you are located. However, national average is $2.79. The TN average is $2.65. If you are saving $.50 per gallon, yet yielding to a loss of efficiency of 15-20%, then you are actually worse off. You are losing $.53 per gallon due to lack of efficiency, yet only getting a discount of $.50 by purchasing e85. It really is not as economical as advertised.
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I live in Western Kentucky, and you are correct; $.50 per gallon is not economical if gas is as $2.79. The break even point is right at $2.50.
 
#79
#79
cotton said:
I live in Western Kentucky, and you are correct; $.50 per gallon is not economical if gas is as $2.79. The break even point is right at $2.50.
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So, when you take into account that only 1.35 btus are produced for every 1 btu used to produce ethanol, is it really worth it? Over 20 gallons, you might be saving enough money to buy a coke (or you might be costing yourself a coke, depending on what side of $2.50 the gas is on), and the net sum of oil 'spared' might add up to two gallons? Is that really worth the extra hassle for all involved in the process?
 
#80
#80
therealUT said:
So, when you take into account that only 1.35 btus are produced for every 1 btu used to produce ethanol, is it really worth it? Over 20 gallons, you might be saving enough money to buy a coke (or you might be costing yourself a coke, depending on what side of $2.50 the gas is on), and the net sum of oil 'spared' might add up to two gallons? Is that really worth the extra hassle for all involved in the process?
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There is no hassle for me as a consumer. I have a pump convenient to me, and my vehicle happened to have a flexfuel engine in it. I also said in an earlier post that I use ethanol when it makes economic sense, so if the gas is on the wrong side of $2.50, I use unleaded (as I did this morning.)


There seems to be some confusion in this thread about economic efficiency and energy efficiency. I have no interest in, nor care for, energy efficiency, only the economic efficiency that comes from putting ethanol in my tank if the situation is to my advantage, even by a Coke's worth.

EDIT: I should also add that I am not an ethanol "proponent" in the sense that I really don't care from what the fuel I use to transport myself from one point to another is derived. Given my observations and specific knowelge of the situation here, however, it does seem to be a useful alternative to petroleum based fuels in some situations with the potential to expand as technology and availability develops.
 
#81
#81
therealUT said:
I definitely do not defend it because of party interests. I actually turned to my wife just yesterday and made a comment. We were at the gas station, which had 12 pumps, and every pump was full. We had to wait in line for gas. The comment I made was that the price of gas is too low. At that gas station, the price of gas should have probably been about 10-20 cents higher per gallon, in order to reduce the demand to the supply. I feel that across the US, the price of gas should actually be about $.50-$1.00 higher than it currently is. Why? Because people would still be buying it! That is how our economy ought to work.
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Look gas could be $5/gallon, $10/gallon and people will still pay it. They have no choice, they have to go to work, to buy food, etc.

How does the free market work when its a commodity people have to have? There are enough people growing food that it doesn't work but there are only a handful of oil companies.

An oil corporation last year made more money then any comporation has ever reported in history. How do you think that happened? They only charged what they had to charge to bring their gasoline to market because of the competive nature of the market? No they made a killing because they can charge what they want and people will pay. Maybe thats your idea of a free market.

Why do you think OPEC was created? To allow market forces to drive the price of oil?
 
#82
#82
oklavol said:
Look gas could be $5/gallon, $10/gallon and people will still pay it. They have no choice, they have to go to work, to buy food, etc.
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You have legs right? You can buy a bicycle, walk, run, jog, move closer to work, etc. People have a choice! It is just more 'convenient' for people to drive and for some absurd reason they believe that the government should make their lives as hassle free as possible.
 
#83
#83
therealUT said:
You have legs right? You can buy a bicycle, walk, run, jog, move closer to work, etc. People have a choice! It is just more 'convenient' for people to drive and for some absurd reason they believe that the government should make their lives as hassle free as possible.
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Artificially inflate prices in everything. That's a plan.
 
#88
#88
oklavol said:
Look gas could be $5/gallon, $10/gallon and people will still pay it. They have no choice, they have to go to work, to buy food, etc.

How does the free market work when its a commodity people have to have? There are enough people growing food that it doesn't work but there are only a handful of oil companies.

An oil corporation last year made more money then any comporation has ever reported in history. How do you think that happened? They only charged what they had to charge to bring their gasoline to market because of the competive nature of the market? No they made a killing because they can charge what they want and people will pay. Maybe thats your idea of a free market.

Why do you think OPEC was created? To allow market forces to drive the price of oil?
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Gas is not a requirement for life. People lived a very long time without it. Also, driving is not a right but a privilege. You choose to drive over the many other methods that could accomplish the same task.

The Exxon profits have already been explained, you are just scared of the big numbers. They have a lower profit % than many other companies that you actively support each and every day. They are making money because they invested properly in their future and are now reaping the benefits.
 
#89
#89
Oil exec took home over 400 million in compensation last year.

Occidental boss nets $400M - Apr. 9, 2007

Obviously a result of the competitive free market, not because they are gouging the customer at all.

So basically you believe, its reasonable to ask the consumer to give up his car and ride a bicycle to work. But to ask that the Federal Govt get involved with industry to fund alteranative fuel research, and lithium battery technology to study the feasibility of an electric car thats not reasonable.
 
#90
#90
oklavol said:
[deleted because it is absolutely meaningless]
So basically you believe, its reasonable to ask the consumer to give up his car and ride a bicycle to work. But to ask that the Federal Govt get involved with industry to fund alteranative fuel research, and lithium battery technology to study the feasibility of an electric car thats not reasonable.
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Yes, these are my basic beliefs regarding this issue.
 
#91
#91
utvolpj said:
Gas is not a requirement for life. People lived a very long time without it. Also, driving is not a right but a privilege. You choose to drive over the many other methods that could accomplish the same task.

The Exxon profits have already been explained, you are just scared of the big numbers. They have a lower profit % than many other companies that you actively support each and every day. They are making money because they invested properly in their future and are now reaping the benefits.
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Its not a requirement for life? Do you know anybody in this country besides homeless people who live without it?
 
#93
#93
utvolpj said:
Gas is not a requirement for life. People lived a very long time without it.
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The problem is that modern American society is completely organized around the assumption that cheap oil is a given. It's not just that we have physically arranged our living spaces so that getting around without a car is impractical; think about our food production. Everything you see on the shelves at your local supermarket is grown hundreds to thousands of miles away. First it has to be grown with fertilizers made out of petroleum, and then it has to be shipped across the country on a truck. And now we're locked into this system, since we've plowed up most of the good farmland around our cities and turned it into suburbs, strip malls, and parking lots. When oil gets to $120 a barrel, what's that going to do to the price of groceries?

Now multiply that times clothes, furniture -- basically all the objects we have in our houses. (Plastics are all made from oil, too.) People just tend to think of the oil problem as being how much it costs them to fill up their car at the pump, when it's much more pervasive than that.
 
#94
#94
OWB said:
Do the Amish use gas?
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The Amish grow their own food, make their own clothes and other objects, and are generally self-sustainable -- which I believe is the whole point of it. The rest of us are entirely dependent on a gigantic oil-driven infrastructure to make our bags of caesar salad show up at Kroger and our HDTVs show up at Best Buy.
 
#96
#96
I grew up with some Amish people in the town where I lived. There are different sects. Some of the ones in Pennsylania use Horse and Buggies. These here all used old black trucks for transportation.
 
#97
#97
utvolpj said:
Can and do are 2 totally different arguments.
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Reality and fantasy are two different arguements too.

The reality is people need gas in this country like they need food and water. This fantasy world where people are going to ride bycles and not need gas, is just that fantasy.
 
#98
#98
oklavol said:
Reality and fantasy are two different arguements too.

The reality is people need gas in this country like they need food and water. This fantasy world where people are going to ride bycles and not need gas, is just that fantasy.
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I highly doubt that the average American would die from a month without gasoline in their lives. However, all 300 million of us would die after two weeks with no water.
 
#99
#99
oklavol said:
]The reality is people need gas in this country like they need food and water.
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This is not just an exaggeration. The vast majority of the food in this country -- as well as everything we feed our cattle -- is grown using petroleum-based fertilizers. The energy we consume in our food comes from oil. We don't just burn oil up in our cars; we eat it, too.
 
#100
#100
therealUT said:
I highly doubt that the average American would die from a month without gasoline in their lives. However, all 300 million of us would die after two weeks with no water.
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Cut off gasoline in this country for one week and see what happens.
 
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