American Exceptionalism (split)

[HSVol]

Yes. The notion of American exceptionalism is the system that prizes individualism, ownership, liberty and self-determination is a model that is superior. It is not the country or the people - it is the system and it's ethos.

It is an ideal; not an outcome (e.g. most wealth, biggest military, etc.).

Thank you for this post. Liked.

 

[n_huffhines]

We're the guy on the block who went into massive debt to have the nicest boat, car, home security, etc. Then we tell everybody it makes us superior.

 

[KiffinKiller]

we got some inflated egos in here

 

[volinbham]

We're the guy on the block who went into massive debt to have the nicest boat, car, home security, etc. Then we tell everybody it makes us superior.

Huh? That has nothing to do with the concept of AE.

 

[n_huffhines]

Huh? That has nothing to do with the concept of AE.

Welcome to the conversation. Golfballs says we are superior.

And the concept has been hijacked. From wikipedia:

Although the term does not necessarily imply superiority, many neoconservative and American conservative writers have promoted its use in that sense. To them, the United States is like the biblical "shining city on a hill," and exempt from historical forces that have affected other countries.

 

[n_huffhines]

BTW, according to wikipedia, Joseph Stalin coined the phrase.

 

[HSVol]

nbaker, if Ron Paul coined it, you'd have it tattooed to your forehead.

I keed, I keed. Sort of. But seriously...

 

[volinbham]

The best, most concise statement of AE I've seen comes from Daniel Hannan in The New Road to Serfdom. I'll see if I can post it later.

I'm a firm believer in AE and as a result I'm a fierce opponent of Obama since I believe he does not believe in AE and is actively changing our country so that AE will no longer exist.

 

[GAVol]

BTW, according to wikipedia, Joseph Stalin coined the phrase.

Not surprising. I'm sure he referred to the concept derisively.

The idea has been around since Manifest Destiny . . . And Herman Cain endorses it.

 

[n_huffhines]

nbaker, if Ron Paul coined it, you'd have it tattooed to your forehead.

I keed, I keed. Sort of. But seriously...

I wasn't inferring that there was meaning to the fact that Stalin coined it. I just thought it was interesting. I don't even know the context.

 

[Weezy]

The American People were innovative and driven, and in a country who's system encouraged liberty which led to risk taking. We've slowly lost a little of that. While the government is a factor, the people are most at fault.

If you want to give military credit, it should be in the form of the technology it has helped developed (nuclear, GPS, solar, internet [?], etc...).

There are two things responsible for most the cool **** on Earth, the US and men.

edit: All joking aside, the military can be given credit for a lot of things. I just wanted to point out that the money we spend on it just isn't wasted blowing **** up. There is a lot of research money that has translated to the private sector.

 

[HSVol]

I wasn't inferring that there was meaning to the fact that Stalin coined it. I just thought it was interesting. I don't even know the context.

Just trying to lighten it up a little. I meant no offense.

 

[n_huffhines]

The best, most concise statement of AE I've seen comes from Daniel Hannan in The New Road to Serfdom. I'll see if I can post it later.

I'm a firm believer in AE and as a result I'm a fierce opponent of Obama since I believe he does not believe in AE and is actively changing our country so that AE will no longer exist.

What's that like? The OG Road to Serfdom is a gritty read by an Austrian economist. How does it compare?

 

[n_huffhines]

Just trying to lighten it up a little. I meant no offense.

None was taken. I've gotta have pretty thick skin to hang out here with my "weird" views.

 

[golfballs]

Yes. The notion of American exceptionalism is the system that prizes individualism, ownership, liberty and self-determination is a model that is superior. It is not the country or the people - it is the system and it's ethos.

It is an ideal; not an outcome (e.g. most wealth, biggest military, etc.).

the outcomes are a reflection of those ideals

 

[golfballs]

Welcome to the conversation. Golfballs says we are superior.

And the concept has been hijacked. From wikipedia:

we are superior.

btw, anytime someone uses the phrase "neoconservative", there's a 90% chance they are a lib

 

[DinkinFlicka]

Not really. The left has a highly developed and effective practice of systematically destroying anyone who threatens to be conservative "electable leadership talent".

Jesus effin' Christ, SJT. It's called politics.

News flash: It's possible to be a pervert, liar, and crook if you're right of center.

 

[MG1968]

Iowa yawns at Herman Cain allegations - Reid J. Epstein - POLITICO.com

I think Americans, in general, are getting tired of "bimbo eruptions". I know I am.

 

[n_huffhines]

we are superior.

btw, anytime someone uses the phrase "neoconservative", there's a 90% chance they are a lib

Neocons call themselves neocons (like our VN poster Neocon). I'd say libertarians use the term more than anybody. Libertarians generally align themselves with conservatives (Pat Buchanan), but despise neocons (Newt Gingrich).

 

[golfballs]

Neocons call themselves neocons (like our VN poster Neocon). I'd say libertarians use the term more than anybody. Libertarians generally align themselves with conservatives (Pat Buchanan), but despise neocons (Newt Gingrich).

A lot of ibs use it as a derogatory term for most on the right
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[volinbham]

What's that like? The OG Road to Serfdom is a gritty read by an Austrian economist. How does it compare?

Not as deep as Hayek but a good statement of the case of why we don't want to become like Europe. Some of it is preaching to the choir but he does a good job of laying out what makes AE and how we've been moving towards a European model that simply doesn't work as well.

He's an English rep on the EU Congress equivalent. There are some great youtube clips of him trashing Gordon Brown and everything Euro-socialist.

If you like what you see here - you'll like the book

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94lW6Y4tBXs[/youtube]

 

[n_huffhines]

Not as deep as Hayek but a good statement of the case of why we don't want to become like Europe. Some of it is preaching to the choir but he does a good job of laying out what makes AE and how we've been moving towards a European model that simply doesn't work as well.

He's an English rep on the EU Congress equivalent. There are some great youtube clips of him trashing Gordon Brown and everything Euro-socialist.

If you like what you see here - you'll like the book

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94lW6Y4tBXs[/youtube]

Of course. Now I know who he is.

 

[n_huffhines]

A lot of ibs use it as a derogatory term for most on the right
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Unless I'm mistaken, there's nothing inherently derogatory about the term. It just describes a new form of conservatism (the biggest difference is the propensity for support of war). Libs probably use it in a derogatory fashion, but in the same manner you might use "liberal". It's derogatory only if you think their ideas are dumb.

 

[therealUT]

The topic of whether we should or should not have invaded Iraq has nothing to do with the current discussion. We're talking military, not politics. If you want to discuss whether or not the Bush administration lied to everyone about the reasons for the invasion, go ahead. That has NOTHING to do with our military and the conflict in which they've been involved in since 2003.

The strategic decision to go to war involves military plans and planners; it has everything to do with the military.

And make no mistake, Iraq was a clear military success. The military employed various tactics and "strategies" in order to achieve it's objective. If the Sons of Iraq campaign worked because it paid Sunnis to man checkpoints instead of fight Americans, then it worked. And the SOI strategy (not just a tactic) was a strategy that was formulated and executed by MNF-I.

Iraq is not a clear military success.

And on the definition of military, you're really grasping at straws here. The classic definition of "military" is related to the fighting force of a government. So don't act like it matters what dictionary the definition I used came from. We don't call the Taliban a military. We don't call Hamas a military. We don't call Los Zetas a military. But they are, or do have, fighting forces.

Words have meanings. The fact that you will not reveal your source says a lot. I question your definition because the term "nation" is ambiguous. If nation simply means a collection of persons with like culture, characteristics, and traditions, then that does not rule out non-governmental military. If nation implies "nation-state", then the problem is that such a concept is a recent concept (last two hundreds years), then the concept of military would also have to be as recent. Yet, the concept of military has been around for thousands of years.

Here are the definitions from the OED:

military, adj. and n.
Pronunciation: Brit. /ˈmɪlᵻt(&#601ri/ , U.S. /ˈmɪləˌtɛri/
Forms: lME 16– military, 15–16 militarie, 15–16 millitarie, 16 millitary.
Etymology: < Middle French militaire (c1355 as adjective, earliest in tribun militaire military tribune, 1663 as noun in sense B. 1, 1755 in sense B. 2) and its etymon classical Latin m&#299;lit&#257;ris , adjective and noun < m&#299;lit- , m&#299;les soldier, of unknown origin + -&#257;ris -ary suffix2. Compare Old Occitan militar (1202 as adjective), Catalan militar (1344), Italian militare (c1336 as adjective, a1712 as noun), Spanish militar (c1440 as adjective, 1734 as noun), Portuguese militar (1454 as adjective). Compare earlier militar adj.
The major senses of the English adjective are attested earlier in Latin and in French. Many of the compounds at Special uses 2 have earlier parallels in Latin and French: with military age compare classical Latin m&#299;lit&#257;ris aet&#257;s ; with military art compare classical Latin m&#299;lit&#257;ris ars (singular), m&#299;lit&#257;res artes (plural); with military discipline compare classical Latin m&#299;lit&#257;ris discipl&#299;na , Middle French militaire discipline (1508); with military law compare classical Latin i&#363;s m&#299;lit&#257;ris , l&#275;ges m&#299;lit&#257;res (plural); in military testament after post-classical Latin militare testamentum (6th cent.). With sense B. 1 compare classical Latin m&#299;lit&#257;ris (masculine) soldier.
A. adj.

1. Of or relating to warfare or defence; adapted to or connected with a state of war; designed for military use. Of, relating, or belonging to armed forces or an army (now freq. opposed to civil or civilian).

a1460 Knyghthode & Bataile (Pembr. Cambr. 243) 719 The legioun stont in cohortys x&#8229;The dignite and number of the men Hath in the firste cohors an excellence Of noble blood&#8229;The military cohors&#8229;Thus named it the wise.
a1460 Knyghthode & Bataile (Pembr. Cambr. 243) 909 The legioun is seide haue choorsis x. The military first, or miliary. The best&#8229;men&#8229;therto be necessary.
1582 G. Whetstone Heptameron Ciuill Disc. sig. Si, In Militarie Knowledge, he was experienced, as wel, by seruice in the Field, as in readyng Vegetius and other Aucthors in his Studie.
1590 J. Smythe Certain Disc. Weapons Ded. 1 b, Our auncient proceedings in matters Militarie.
1600 J. Pory tr. J. Leo Geogr. Hist. Afr. App. 373 His fourth militarie forces, are the Arabians.
1602 W. Warner Epitome Hist. Eng. in Albions Eng. (rev. ed.) 357 Ætius&#8229;caused this marueilous and millitarie Wall then to be builded.
1612 J. Selden in M. Drayton Poly-olbion i. xv. Illustr. 244 Excepting those [orders] of Templars&#8229;and such like other, which were more Religious then Military.
1727 J. Arbuthnot Tables Anc. Coins 224 The Expedition of the Argonauts&#8229;was partly mercantile, partly military.
1768 W. Blackstone Comm. Laws Eng. III. 115 The public ecclesiastical, military, and maritime jurisdictions.
1804 Duke of Grafton Autobiogr. (1898) 3 A parent, who, had he lived, would probably have been as distinguished a character in the civil, as he had shown that he was in the military [i.e. naval] line.
1825 J. Neal Brother Jonathan III. 115 Washington would have lost a part, or the whole of&#8229;his military stores.
1850 W. D. Cooper Hist. Winchelsea 37 The Strand Gate&#8229;leading by the new Military road to Rye.
1861 H. L. Scott Mil. Dict. 135 If the camp is to present the same front as the troops in order of battle, 400 military paces will be necessary per regiment of 500 files front.
1902 J. Conrad Heart of Darkness in Youth 56 Here and there a military camp lost in a wilderness.
1935 Economist 10 Aug. 270/1 Apart from British military aircraft, the openings are for commercial aviation, private flying and export.
1968 A. Storr Human Aggression iii. 27 Even democracies support armies; and military organization is based upon a strict rank order and absolute obedience.
1986 I. L. Lebow in T. C. Bartee Digital Communications ii. 84 Some of this technology is being developed for military satellites.
2.

a. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a soldier or soldiers; used, performed, or brought about by soldiers; befitting a soldier.

1585 T. Washington tr. N. de Nicolay Nauigations Turkie iii. iii. 74 The Pretorian legions&#8229;began to become rulers over their maisters, vnder pretext of such a Militarie gift.
1591 W. Garrard & R. Hitchcock Arte of Warre 17 Which he must weare to honour the Militarie profession.
1611 T. Heywood Golden Age ii. sig. D, Train'd my youth, In feats of Armes, and military prowesse.
a1616 Shakespeare Henry IV, Pt. 2 (1623) ii. iii. 30 So that in Speech, in Gate,&#8229;In Militarie Rules,&#8229;He was the Marke, and Glasse&#8229;That fashion'd others.
1665 T. Manley tr. H. Grotius De Rebus Belgicis 119 They esteem luxury, and all other licentiousness, as Military Gallantry.
1667 Milton Paradise Lost iv. 955 Was this&#8229;Your military obedience&#8229;?
1667 Milton Paradise Lost xi. 241 Over his lucid Armes A militarie Vest of purple flowd.
a1718 W. Penn Tracts in Wks. (1726) I. 575 Maugre all the Military Opposition of the Jews.
1776 C. Burney Gen. Hist. Music I. 340 With respect to Military Music, the trumpet is mentioned by Homer in a simile.
1843 G. Borrow Bible in Spain III. vii. 133 The late military revolution.
1849 T. B. Macaulay Hist. Eng. II. vi. 142 Tyrconnel&#8229;knew nothing of military duty.
1904 J. Conrad Nostromo ii. iv. 136 And when he rode slowly through the streets during some military display, the contemptuous good humour of his solitary eye roaming over the crowds extorted the acclamations of the populace.
1950 M. Marples University Slang 56 In military slang more recently a private tutor's pupils were known as crammer's pups (1923–), by a pleasing combination of abbreviation and pun.
1970 Cape Times 28 Oct. 22/4 (advt.) A vacancy&#8229;for a young matriculant male who has completed his military training.
1995 Legion Apr. 59/3 A military parade became an annual event with the start of the Candian National Exhibition in 1879.

b. Of fashion, colours, etc.: resembling the clothes worn by soldiers. Occurring earliest in military heel n. at Special uses 2.

1817 T. H. Bayly Rough Sketches Bath & Other Poems i. 54 With boots and military heels, Some love to guide their tandem wheels, And dash along the Crescent.
1847 Dickens Dombey & Son (1848) xxxvii. 370 Withers, no longer the wan, stood upright in a pigeon-breasted jacket and military trowsers.
1897 Sears, Roebuck Catal. No. 104. 188/2 Ladies' Single Military Cape Mackintosh. Made from extra fine all wool.
1971 Melody Maker 13 Nov. 50 (advt.) New cotton drill loons and military trousers.
1982 R. Ingalls Mrs Caliban 14 A species of military hat composed of metallic-painted cardboard, red glitterdust, and side rosettes.
1985 D. Johnson Fiskadoro i. 5 Mr. Cheung knew by the faded military olive of this little boy's shorts that he'd come from the village.
3.

a. Of an individual: having the characteristics of a soldier; soldierly. Of a person's attitude, bearing, or conduct: characteristic of a soldier.

1598 Shakespeare Love's Labour's Lost v. i. 35 Most millitarie sir salutation.
1612 Bacon Ess. (new ed.) 235 Walled Towns,&#8229;Ordinance, and Artillerie, they are all but a Sheep in a Lions skin, except the breed and disposition of the people be militarie.
1734 Pennsylvania Gaz. 13 Mar. 2/1 The Military Spirit seeming to revive among us, I would recommend to you, [etc.].
1845 P. J. Bailey Festus (ed. 2) 139 Man is a military animal, Glories in gunpowder, and loves parade.
1863 A. W. Kinglake Invasion of Crimea I. 64 He was a man too military to be warlike.
1901 S. Dark Stage Silhouettes 87 Archer&#8229;is a tallish man, with a military walk and bearing, and a strong, characterful face.
1932 R. Kipling Limits & Renewals 80, I was monolithically military.
1952 J. Steinbeck East of Eden iii. 18 Cyrus developed an excellent military mind.
1981 B. Ashley Dodgem iv. 80 Adult hands, stronger than Simon had ever realised, held him in a tight, military grip.

b. Of a person, class of people, etc.: engaged in the life of a soldier; belonging to the army. Also in extended use.

a1616 Shakespeare Henry IV, Pt. 2 (1623) iv. i. 62 The Throngs of Militarie men.
1617 F. Moryson Itinerary ii. 45 That dependancy which all military men already had on him.
1682 Dryden Medall 11 Thy military Chiefs are brave and true.
1756 G. Washington Let. 23 Sept. in Writings (1931) I. 467 And my surprise is yet increased, when I consider how cautiously worded the act of Parliament is, to preserve the rights and liberties of the people against this arbitary proceedings of the military officers.
1781 Gibbon Decline & Fall II. xvii. 43 Under their orders thirty-five military commanders were stationed in the provinces.
1816 W. Kirby & W. Spence Introd. Entomol. (1818) II. xvii. 65 When the military ants before alluded to go upon their expeditions.
1866 G. MacDonald Ann. Quiet Neighb. (1878) ix. 135 He had the carriage of a military man.
1910 W. James Mem. & Stud. (1911) xi. 275 The militarily patriotic and romantic-minded everywhere, and especially the professional military class, refuse to admit for a moment that war may be a transitory phenomenon in social evolution.
1958 M. Pugh Wilderness of Monkeys 37 ‘Not much crumpet here, tonight,’ Maguire said, smiling lecherously at the military man's companion.
1991 M. E. Wertsch Military Brats x. 344 Even where a military parent is blatantly and unselfconsciously racist, the children are likely to grow up much more open-minded.
B. n.

1. A member of the military, esp. an officer in the army. rare.

1709 D. Manley Secret Mem. 176 A certain Military's Wife has had more Darts for him than is necessary.
1804 A. Seward Mem. Dr. Darwin 149 Fox-hunting esquires, dashing militaries, and pedantic gownsmen.
1837 Lett. from Madras (1843) 94 The civilians all expect to come to us&#8229;; and the militaries go to Captain Price.
1962 Listener 1 Nov. 723/3 A few splendid portraits of the Austrian court nobility and of the high militaries.
1993 Jrnl. Milit. Hist. 57 568 He suggests that the regular militaries did not understand the role that could be played by the guerrillas.
2. With pl. or sing. concord. Usu. with the. The armed forces (of a country); soldiers or military personnel, esp. regarded as a class.

1757 J. H. Grose Voy. E.-Indies x. 202 None&#8229;of the Parsees, either meddle at all with the government, or with the military.
1773 Ann. Reg. 1772 93/1 The military marched down to the ship.
1775 Tender Father I. 189 Even to the gentlemen in the military,&#8229;Mr. N—— would not allow of any material excuses.
1813 Chron. in Ann. Reg. 76 The whole escorted by 400 military.
1868 M. E. Grant Duff Polit. Surv. 16 Their procession was interrupted by the military.
1904 W. T. Mills Struggle for Existence ix. 114 The military had&#8229;ceased to be in any way a source of income to the state.
1965 ‘Malcolm X’ Autobiogr. (1968) ix. 226 Sophia's husband had gotten out of the military, and he was some sort of salesman.
1972 F. Fitzgerald Fire in Lake xii. 346 The U.S. military was at the same time bombing, defoliating, and moving villages.
1990 Independent 31 Oct. 11 (heading) The military ponders a worst-case scenario.

There seems to be some underlying things going on with you and your military experience.

That I can see past the jingoism and institutional arrogance of the American military system; or, that I decided to read Kant and extend value to all of humanity, not just those individuals that agree with America. These two things do underlie my views.

 

[therealUT]

According to Wikipedia, which is not the most authoritative source, this is the earliest record of the concept of "American Exceptionalism":

The position of the Americans is therefore quite exceptional, and it may be believed that no democratic people will ever be placed in a similar one. Their strictly Puritanical origin, their exclusively commercial habits, even the country they inhabit, which seems to divert their minds from the pursuit of science, literature, and the arts, the proximity of Europe, which allows them to neglect these pursuits without relapsing into barbarism, a thousand special causes, of which I have only been able to point out the most important, have singularly concurred to fix the mind of the American upon purely practical objects. His passions, his wants, his education, and everything about him seem to unite in drawing the native of the United States earthward; his religion alone bids him turn, from time to time, a transient and distracted glance to heaven. Let us cease, then, to view all democratic nations under the example of the American people.

Tocqueville

This is not what I refer to when I say "American Exceptionalism". I mean it in the sense that it has been interpreted as "the American system is inherently superior to all others and, therefore, all actions conducted by the American government, in accordance with the system, are superior and good acts". I believe that it is in this sense that Americans embraced Manifest Destiny, the displacement of the American Indians, and the multiple wars of ideology and "nobility" in which America has been entangled. It is a notion not just that capitalism is good, but that any other economic system must be defeated; it is a notion that not only is freedom good; but that every other system of government must be defeated. AE results in the sense of duty to police the Earth and "correct the faults". I am absolutely opposed to such a duty.