An Amicable Divorce?

#26
#26
That was my basic point. If leftists really want the things they are promoting (at someone else's expense) then they should pay for it themselves.
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yep ... at some point, many of the ones footing the bill (the "rich") will detach themselves from the american economy ... some already have by moving manufacturing/etc overseas ...

I could see conservatives collecting themselves in traditionally conservative/independent areas like Texas or the great plains ....
 
#27
#27
To the one commenting on OE's avatar: It's much easier to take Wierd Al seriously than it is a naked dude in white socks... I still have mental scarring from that.
 
#28
#28
Daddy Gee said:
yep ... at some point, many of the ones footing the bill (the "rich") will detach themselves from the american economy ... some already have by moving manufacturing/etc overseas ...

I could see conservatives collecting themselves in traditionally conservative/independent areas like Texas or the great plains ....
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Witness NYC. They passed a soak the rich plan... and watched a "rich" exodus.
 
#29
#29
sjt18 said:
What we all should agree on is that the attempt to blend the two is incoherent and unsustainable. Either gov't should become a nanny state enslaving the populace through 70% plus tax rates or we go the other direction where people have rights and freedom along with responsibility... knowing that some people will fail and even get hurt. In trying to do both, we are attempting to have low taxes and untethered gov't spending/goodies.
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The real tragedy is that our conservative politicians were corrupt and morally bankrupt enough to sell out their principles and support the great bailout. To the shock of nobody the Obama administration is aggressively moving as quickly as possible toward full-blown socialism, but the fundamental principles of the free market economy were first abandoned with the massive bailout begun by the Bush Administration. There is enough blame to go around to both political parties.
 
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#30
#30
Vol423 said:
The real tragedy is that our conservative politicians were corrupt and morally bankrupt enough to sell out their principles and support the great bailout.
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Absolutely true.

Probably isn't accurate to call them conservative politicians. Given power... they talk the talk but walk the liberal walk. Any that attempt to make a stand on conviction get demagogued to death by the MSM and Libs. That's why it is important for a movement like the Tea Party to exist and demand fidelity to principle.

I was kind of excited voting for W the first time because of one thing... something he called the "opportunity society". It didn't get nearly enough play but the idea was to redesign entitlements with the intent of freeing people from them and eventually ending or significantly reducing the program's scope. He got elected.... 9/11 happened, Iraq happened, recession happend... and the idea got tossed.
 
#31
#31
the idea was to redesign entitlements with the intent of freeing people from them and eventually ending or significantly reducing the program's scope
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I'm afraid that our educational system has failed most of the population ... our savings rate is under 5% ... people don't know how to save or to take personal responsibility for their lives ..... it's going to reach critical mass at some point ......
 
#32
#32
Vouchers or some other push toward private education or at a minimum exclusive local control of schools would help alot... The statists, academic elitists, and unions won't have it though.
 
#36
#36
I'm a small L libertarian for now. I just can't understand their logic on abortion.

I can go with Bob Barr's platform though.
 
#37
#37
sjt18 said:
J-P, there was a short lived rumble about having conservatives move to conservative states then challenge with succession again a while back. It could happen as a gradual Exodus.

In spite of LG's bluster, I don't think the left has the stomach or commitment to take on those willing to fight for rights and freedoms.



LG, if it helps you at all... If I could choose a man to lead and shape a constitutional convention... a modern day Jefferson or Madison... It would be Thomas Sowell.
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There is also this: Free State Project - Liberty in Our Lifetime
 
#39
#39
The GOP does in words... deeds are another matter.

I like that term though. Thanks.
 
#40
#40
megaforce.jpg
 
#41
#41
i think never; it'd be a terrible idea that would terribly weaken this country


it'd take the country completely crashing in on itself first....and these "conservative" and "liberal" sides wouldn't really be much like the politics we see today - which really is just more fingerpointing and name-calling anyways
 
#42
#42
sjt18 said:
No. Just a topic for debate.

How did it work out last time? Many people died. Blacks got a measure of freedom. Americans generally lost rights and freedoms that we previously had and held sacred.

Get over ourselves? As long as we're footing the bill for the absolute NON-SENSE you leftists promote... you have no business telling us to "get over ourselves".

That was my basic point. If leftists really want the things they are promoting (at someone else's expense) then they should pay for it themselves.

If a division happened... either leftists would petition for re-union or would collapse as a society. The impact the left has had on America in the last 100 years has already left us at the brink.

Until you start actually producing the wealth that is getting redistributed or living by the standards you are demanding for everyone else.... Get over YOURself.
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or option C, both of these smaller countries fall apart and reach nowhere near the power or success the United States had as a whole; but I think you might also be - from what i'm reading - confusing current day republicans with Civil War era Republicans
 
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#43
#43
IPorange said:
Crack a history book and get back to us.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Well actually - at the time of the Civil war- the Democratic Party held views and ideas more towards that of the current Republican party,

while the then-Republican Party was closer in its setup, arrangements, and beliefs to the current Democratic Party today

the two kinda flipped ideals around the time of the Great Depression era

but Civil War Southern Democrats held what would have been more of a conservative-sided view
 
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#44
#44
TrueOrange said:
or option C, both of these smaller countries fall apart and reach nowhere near the power or success the United States had as a whole; but I think you might also be - from what i'm reading - confusing current day republicans with Civil War era Republicans
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I think you have deluded yourself into believing that our current path is sustainable.

About 35-40% of the country is conservative and knows what it believes and what kind of country it wants. About 20% of the country is liberal and likewise knows what they believe and want. The middle is largely moved by whether they feel good at the time or else if one party or the other has effectively demagogued the other or not.

It would seem that liberals should be at a disadvantage but they hold about 90% of the press, academia, and bureaucrats.

Those who vote without a solid understanding of political principles and foundation in some political pov are a huge, huge problem.

I can tell you this. From 1780 to 1900, the US went from being colonies to being a world power based on incredible economic prosperity and freedom. Since 1900 and especially since the late 60's, "Progressives" have gained enough traction to impose their ideals and agenda. From that point until now, our debt has exploded. We have seen the rise of a permanent "elite class" made up of politicians, business execs, academics, media types, and union leaders. We have seen the formation of a permanent dependent class. These were NOT products of our founding ideals.

I can all but guarantee that a country founded on the ideals of the Founders would rise from nothing to Superpower status in a matter of years.

Freedom works every time it is tried.

BTW, the current GOP is to some extent a coalition of formerly Democrat conservatives and the descendants of the conservative minority within the old GOP. The Democratic party of today has no real attachment to any American ideal of gov't or party in existence prior to about 1920. The philosophy and platform of the modern Dems is alien to our Constitution.
 
#45
#45
sjt18 said:
I think you have deluded yourself into believing that our current path is sustainable.

About 35-40% of the country is conservative and knows what it believes and what kind of country it wants. About 20% of the country is liberal and likewise knows what they believe and want. The middle is largely moved by whether they feel good at the time or else if one party or the other has effectively demagogued the other or not.

It would seem that liberals should be at a disadvantage but they hold about 90% of the press, academia, and bureaucrats.

Those who vote without a solid understanding of political principles and foundation in some political pov are a huge, huge problem.

I can tell you this. From 1780 to 1900, the US went from being colonies to being a world power based on incredible economic prosperity and freedom. Since 1900 and especially since the late 60's, "Progressives" have gained enough traction to impose their ideals and agenda. From that point until now, our debt has exploded. We have seen the rise of a permanent "elite class" made up of politicians, business execs, academics, media types, and union leaders. We have seen the formation of a permanent dependent class. These were NOT products of our founding ideals.

I can all but guarantee that a country founded on the ideals of the Founders would rise from nothing to Superpower status in a matter of years.

Freedom works every time it is tried.

BTW, the current GOP is to some extent a coalition of formerly Democrat conservatives and the descendants of the conservative minority within the old GOP. The Democratic party of today has no real attachment to any American ideal of gov't or party in existence prior to about 1920. The philosophy and platform of the modern Dems is alien to our Constitution.
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+1

:hi:
 
#46
#46
I think our enemies are just sitting back and seeing how much damage we'll do to ourselves ... if they don't have to raise a finger, so much the better for them ....
 
#47
#47
sjt18 said:
I think you have deluded yourself into believing that our current path is sustainable.

About 35-40% of the country is conservative and knows what it believes and what kind of country it wants. About 20% of the country is liberal and likewise knows what they believe and want. The middle is largely moved by whether they feel good at the time or else if one party or the other has effectively demagogued the other or not.

It would seem that liberals should be at a disadvantage but they hold about 90% of the press, academia, and bureaucrats.

Those who vote without a solid understanding of political principles and foundation in some political pov are a huge, huge problem.


I can tell you this. From 1780 to 1900, the US went from being colonies to being a world power based on incredible economic prosperity and freedom. Since 1900 and especially since the late 60's, "Progressives" have gained enough traction to impose their ideals and agenda. From that point until now, our debt has exploded. We have seen the rise of a permanent "elite class" made up of politicians, business execs, academics, media types, and union leaders. We have seen the formation of a permanent dependent class. These were NOT products of our founding ideals.

I can all but guarantee that a country founded on the ideals of the Founders would rise from nothing to Superpower status in a matter of years.

Freedom works every time it is tried.

BTW, the current GOP is to some extent a coalition of formerly Democrat conservatives and the descendants of the conservative minority within the old GOP. The Democratic party of today has no real attachment to any American ideal of gov't or party in existence prior to about 1920. The philosophy and platform of the modern Dems is alien to our Constitution.
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I think you're deluded if you think that either of two half countries would ever have or reach anywhere near as much power as the US currently has now.

I don't think the current path is sustainable, no - our economic mishaps already did that to ourselves most likely. But to think that two half countries would be any better....it didn't work the first attempt for a reason (I'd also like to see someone's view on what would happen in WWII if the South had been successful in seceding)

Yes a major understanding of the Constitution, its ideals and how it works is very important (so you dont vote thinking an amendment for no gay marriage can end up there), yet also at the same time I feel that those who vote solely based off of a black and white idea that it's one side versus another (like a freaking football game) have a huge, huge problem. The world isn't that black and white; it's not just A or B and never has been.

Both parties represent various ideals of the founders. One of the major problems as i see it with the system currently is that each side is now more concerned with either A) making the other party look bad or B) impressing their own party/benefactors than they are about making things better in this country. It's been that way this entire decade, and it's extremely counter-productive to the way the system is supposed to work.


As for your BTW point, I had just been pointing that out b/c your previous post was saying that it was the Republicans conservative ideals that liberated the slaves, etc, etc. I was pointing out that - and you seem to somewhat have accepted it in your response - the party's ideals were pretty drastically different back then than they are today: the more conservative party (the one who who be deemed "conservative" by today's standards still) were the Southern Democrats and their ideas/wants were a major part of the proponents pushing for secession.



are you using the Glenn Beck debating point? (asking due to the "progressives" point)


also didn't our debt start exploding during the last administration and our war efforts?

I do agree with the elite class ideal (i actually think we probably agree on some more things than the initial posts let on). I think a problem though with the current conservative idea and its party is that, as it currently, it seems to work to support these seemingly wealthy men and businesses first and everyone else second; both parties though have seemingly been pushed more towards their extremes the last decade
 
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#48
#48
Daddy Gee said:
I think our enemies are just sitting back and seeing how much damage we'll do to ourselves ... if they don't have to raise a finger, so much the better for them ....
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Honestly, I'm still surprised no one saw us as ripe for the picking during the Civil War and tried to swoop in to take over it all
 
#49
#49
TrueOrange said:
Well actually - at the time of the Civil war- the Democratic Party held views and ideas more towards that of the current Republican party,

while the then-Republican Party was closer in its setup, arrangements, and beliefs to the current Democratic Party today
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Not really. Neither party questioned a limited role for the Federal Gov't. They differed by a matter of degrees. BOTH of those parties' ideals have been rolled up into the modern GOP. The modern Dems are nothing like either one.

the two kinda flipped ideals around the time of the Great Depression era
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No. Progressives/Modernists began in Europe as congruent political, scientific, and religious movements during the 1800's. By 1900, US colleges had been infiltrated. By 1925 or so, US colleges had been effectively converted and the press was well under way. By 1940 the elites of both parties were basically progressive.

In 1964, Goldwater began a movement to take the GOP back to American ideals. The modern GOP is a composite of those from both parties who rejected the leadership of progressive/statist elites. There is a problem though... many leaders in the GOP are still closet progressives.

What modern day Dems believe would not only be alien but repulsive to vast majorities of both parties 100 years ago.

but Civil War Southern Democrats held what would have been more of a conservative-sided view
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Not really. Conservatives believe that people should have rights, freedoms, and be responsible for themselves. Dems then believed that but only for white people.

I was mistaken earlier. The one tie that the modern Dem party has with the American past is the idea that some in society exist to serve an elite power. In the old south, a relatively small number of masters controlled a large number of black slaves... they told them how to live, gave them what they wanted them to have, educated them the way they wanted them educated, supplied their basic needs,... They considered any wealth produced by the slave the property of the owner. Anything the owner allowed the slave to keep was supposed to be considered benevolent.

That's pretty much what modern libs/progressives want for all Americans except the masters are the political class, academics, union bosses, politically selected CEO's, and media kings.

Whether you call it feudalism, socialism, communism, statism, totalitarianism, private slavery, or anything else, the basic concepts remain the same... elites controlling and effectively owning the masses.

America freed its slaves... and almost immediately started enslaving everyone.
 
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