Archbishop Desmond Tutu, anti apartheid activist, dead

#27
#27
AshG said:
Do you enjoy beating your wife?
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Nice deflecting. You're trying to act like modern slavery is a cultural thing, so it's no big deal. Instead of addressing it when asked, you respond like a teenage kid? I don't beat my wife, and it has nothing to do with what I asked you. You're no different than the ones who only show up when they can blame the gun shooting on a white Christian. You sincerely don't care about slavery, only who you can blame for slavery. This is why as an independent, you guys on the left will always be the biggest hypocrite, you only care when you can make it political, so hence, you're trying to be an sjw on Volnation.
 
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#28
#28
85SugarVol said:
They have roads. They have ports.

What more do you need to take cheap plastic from plant to boat?
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Tl; dr: most of Africa can't keep the plant powered to process the plastic, and even if they could the transport infrastructure is so bad it'd be so costly to get it moved out of the country there'd be no profit for whoever was making it.

I can start with the roads- in Botswana, as an example, a major part of their most major highway is washed away every year due to flooding rains, poor planning, and poor building. South Sudan, as another, has something like 84km of paved road in the entire country. Speeds on highway in most countries in Africa are highly limited primarily due to such crappy road condition where paved, and because of obstacles and missing road depending on the season where not paved. Rail is nearly nonexistent, and where there is rail the gauge changes between countries (depending on who originally developed it) and the actual rail vehicles- locomotives, cars, and the like- are from the early to mid 1960s- when all these countries became independent.

Most ports in Africa aren't properly dredged for ships that require deep harbors. For the ones that are, the equipment in the port- quayside gantry cranes, etc.- is extremely limited, and where it exists is in horrible condition. Most ports lack modern security, intermodal connection, cold storage, warehouses, forklifts, on and on- the things needed to effectively produce.

The worst, though, is probably the reliability of power. You can't manufacture without power, and where the Chinese (who are dominating electric infrastructure there) build a plant it's almost always garbage that's offline in no time. Where the Chinese haven't built these countries are running on infrastructure from- you guessed it- the 1960s, most of which is patched together. Brownouts are very common where the only decent roads and warehouses are.

Africa logistics and supply chain is my wheelhouse from my work. I can't get too deep into it but in general, the infrastructure there is almost entirely not suitable for any production outside agriculture.
 
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#29
#29
joevol33 said:
Nice deflecting. You're trying to act like modern slavery is a cultural thing, so it's no big deal. Instead of addressing it when asked, you respond like a teenage kid? I don't beat my wife, and it has nothing to do with what I asked you. You're no different than the ones who only show up when they can blame the gun shooting on a white Christian. You sincerely don't care about slavery, only who you can blame for slavery. This is why as an independent, you guys on the left will always be the biggest hypocrite, you only care when you can make it political, so hence, you're trying to be an sjw on Volnation.
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Hold your horses.

I'm not on the left.

I do care about slavery. I care about and pray for the freedom of those enslaved. I pray for the removal of those who hold the modern equivalent of whips and chains. When possible, I donate to ministries that work to free the oppressed and promote real and permanent change in countries where the rules are either non-existent, lax, or simply not enforced.

I'll save my receipts for you next time, as the standard of proof here is unevenly applied.
 
#30
#30
ButchPlz said:
Tl; dr: most of Africa can't keep the plant powered to process the plastic, and even if they could the transport infrastructure is so bad it'd be so costly to get it moved out of the country there'd be no profit for whoever was making it.

I can start with the roads- in Botswana, as an example, a major part of their most major highway is washed away every year due to flooding rains, poor planning, and poor building. South Sudan, as another, has something like 84km of paved road in the entire country. Speeds on highway in most countries in Africa are highly limited primarily due to such crappy road condition where paved, and because of obstacles and missing road depending on the season where not paved. Rail is nearly nonexistent, and where there is rail the gauge changes between countries (depending on who originally developed it) and the actual rail vehicles- locomotives, cars, and the like- are from the early to mid 1960s- when all these countries became independent.

Most ports in Africa aren't properly dredged for ships that require deep harbors. For the ones that are, the equipment in the port- quayside gantry cranes, etc.- is extremely limited, and where it exists is in horrible condition. Most ports lack modern security, intermodal connection, cold storage, warehouses, forklifts, on and on- the things needed to effectively produce.

The worst, though, is probably the reliability of power. You can't manufacture without power, and where the Chinese (who are dominating electric infrastructure there) build a plant it's almost always garbage that's offline in no time. Where the Chinese haven't built these countries are running on infrastructure from- you guessed it- the 1960s, most of which is patched together. Brownouts are very common where the only decent roads and warehouses are.

Africa logistics and supply chain is my wheelhouse from my work. I can't get too deep into it but in general, the infrastructure there is almost entirely not suitable for any production outside agriculture.
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I really appreciate this information. Thank you for sharing!
 
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#31
#31
AshG said:
Hold your horses.

I'm not on the left.

I do care about slavery. I care about and pray for the freedom of those enslaved. I pray for the removal of those who hold the modern equivalent of whips and chains. When possible, I donate to ministries that work to free the oppressed and promote real and permanent change in countries where the rules are either non-existent, lax, or simply not enforced.

I'll save my receipts for you next time, as the standard of proof here is unevenly applied.
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Then why was your first response calling it a cultural thing? Then, why ask such a stupid question about my wife? You sure came across as you didn't want to acknowledge, or address the actual slavery happening today. I mean I get why most completely ignore it, because it's not whites, or Christians doing it, but you sure didn't act this way just a few posts ago. It was "cultural " then, before I kept calling you on it. If you're really against it, then good, but it doesn't help you when you want to act like it's culturally acceptable, so we ignore it.
 
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#32
#32
AshG said:
We lost a bright light and a great teacher with the death of Desmond Tutu.

“Forgiving and being reconciled to our enemies or our loved ones are not about pretending that things are other than they are. It is not about patting one another on the back and turning a blind eye to the wrong. True reconciliation exposes the awfulness, the abuse, the hurt, the truth. It could even sometimes make things worse. It is a risky undertaking but in the end it is worthwhile, because in the end only an honest confrontation with reality can bring real healing. Superficial reconciliation can bring only superficial healing.”

-Desmond Tutu
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So are your going to start a new thread every time a racist bites the dust?
 
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#33
#33
McDad said:
Tutu neither improved nor worsened my existence.

RIP ADT.
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#35
#35
85SugarVol said:
They have roads. They have ports.

What more do you need to take cheap plastic from plant to boat?
Click to expand...
You have top get raw materials to the plant, have to have adequate power and water supply, a stable and reliable work force, and a fair amount of political stability to protect your investment. China provides all of these in abundance. Africa is more spotty
 
#38
#38
ButchPlz said:
Tl; dr: most of Africa can't keep the plant powered to process the plastic, and even if they could the transport infrastructure is so bad it'd be so costly to get it moved out of the country there'd be no profit for whoever was making it.

I can start with the roads- in Botswana, as an example, a major part of their most major highway is washed away every year due to flooding rains, poor planning, and poor building. South Sudan, as another, has something like 84km of paved road in the entire country. Speeds on highway in most countries in Africa are highly limited primarily due to such crappy road condition where paved, and because of obstacles and missing road depending on the season where not paved. Rail is nearly nonexistent, and where there is rail the gauge changes between countries (depending on who originally developed it) and the actual rail vehicles- locomotives, cars, and the like- are from the early to mid 1960s- when all these countries became independent.

Most ports in Africa aren't properly dredged for ships that require deep harbors. For the ones that are, the equipment in the port- quayside gantry cranes, etc.- is extremely limited, and where it exists is in horrible condition. Most ports lack modern security, intermodal connection, cold storage, warehouses, forklifts, on and on- the things needed to effectively produce.

The worst, though, is probably the reliability of power. You can't manufacture without power, and where the Chinese (who are dominating electric infrastructure there) build a plant it's almost always garbage that's offline in no time. Where the Chinese haven't built these countries are running on infrastructure from- you guessed it- the 1960s, most of which is patched together. Brownouts are very common where the only decent roads and warehouses are.

Africa logistics and supply chain is my wheelhouse from my work. I can't get too deep into it but in general, the infrastructure there is almost entirely not suitable for any production outside agriculture.
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The Sudan? C’mon man.

I’m talking simple manufacturing on the coast, preferably near a port. Think… Accra
 
#39
#39
85SugarVol said:
The Sudan? C’mon man.

I’m talking simple manufacturing on the coast, preferably near a port. Think… Accra
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I'm giving examples. Again, I can't share specifics until I change jobs, but it's very much the same even in the more developed places. Accra experiences loads of blackouts and brownouts like the rest of Africa, and the interior of Ghana has the same issues with roads, rail, and power for manufacturing concentrated almost entirely in the south.

Africa has next to zero capacity to manage and produce what we want here in the west. It is what it is.

EDIT: as the extra to match what I noted earlier, American companies and government officials are also very hesitant to undertake the bribery necessary to win project contracts in Africa to get stuff done. It's the way it is.

Something else: nearly all aid from here in the US going to Africa doesn't end up where it's supposed to, but you all already knew that.
 
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#40
#40
AshG said:
Hold your horses.

I'm not on the left.

I do care about slavery. I care about and pray for the freedom of those enslaved. I pray for the removal of those who hold the modern equivalent of whips and chains. When possible, I donate to ministries that work to free the oppressed and promote real and permanent change in countries where the rules are either non-existent, lax, or simply not enforced.

I'll save my receipts for you next time, as the standard of proof here is unevenly applied.
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Get off your high horse before you fall and hurt yourself
 
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#41
#41
ButchPlz said:
I'm giving examples. Again, I can't share specifics until I change jobs, but it's very much the same even in the more developed places. Accra experiences loads of blackouts and brownouts like the rest of Africa, and the interior of Ghana has the same issues with roads, rail, and power for manufacturing concentrated almost entirely in the south.

Africa has next to zero capacity to manage and produce what we want here in the west. It is what it is.

EDIT: as the extra to match what I noted earlier, American companies and government officials are also very hesitant to undertake the bribery necessary to win project contracts in Africa to get stuff done. It's the way it is.

Something else: nearly all aid from here in the US going to Africa doesn't end up where it's supposed to, but you all already knew that.
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I’m not trying to argue any of that. Africa is indeed what it is. You’re obviously quite knowledgeable.

But India also has a spotty grid, as do parts of China. Why God invented the standby generator.

They’re already pulling oil and gold out of the ground in Ghana. I’m sure they could manage chew toys.
 
#42
#42
85SugarVol said:
I’m not trying to argue any of that. Africa is indeed what it is. You’re obviously quite knowledgeable.

But India also has a spotty grid, as do parts of China. Why God invented the standby generator.

They’re already pulling oil and gold out of the ground in Ghana. I’m sure they could manage chew toys.
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And what I'm saying is that as spotty as they may be in India (it is, but not so bad) and China (their manufacturing hubs are kept as powered as possible deliberately, screw the people) none are as bad as Africa. India and China also have a lot better infrastructure outside of just the power- China has invested in great highway systems, ports, train transport, etc. on their own. Africans aren't going to do that themselves, and what company is going to want to go through both the regular financial investment, the endless bribes, the time investment, the cultural training, etc. to try to modernize Africa to produce something? It's a morass, and it's even worse than people think.

EDIT: also, to mine materials, pull oil, and move raw stuff like that are not so complex as the series of processes needed for full production. Refineries in Africa absolutely blow, and produce horrific quality product, as an example- once they add that extra step, it all goes sideways.
 
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#43
#43
ButchPlz said:
And what I'm saying is that as spotty as they may be in India (it is, but not so bad) and China (their manufacturing hubs are kept as powered as possible deliberately, screw the people) none are as bad as Africa. India and China also have a lot better infrastructure outside of just the power- China has invested in great highway systems, ports, train transport, etc. on their own. Africans aren't going to do that themselves, and what company is going to want to go through both the regular financial investment, the endless bribes, the time investment, the cultural training, etc. to try to modernize Africa to produce something? It's a morass, and it's even worse than people think.
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I’m not speaking of all of Africa. Ghana is not the Sudan.
 
#45
#45
ButchPlz said:
Ghana is still way, way worse off than China and India. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.
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Of course it is. But Ghana is by far one of the most advanced on that continent.

What I’m trying to get at is if they can pull oil and gold out of the ground and ship that, they can produce some cheap plastic and ship that.
 
#46
#46
85SugarVol said:
Of course it is. But Ghana is by far one of the most advanced on that continent.

What I’m trying to get at is if they can pull oil and gold out of the ground and ship that, they can produce some cheap plastic and ship that.
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According to whom? If you go by things like human development index they aren't even top 10.

And see my other post- it's not so simple to "produce cheap plastic". The oil or gas (plastic raw material) has to be refined (and African refineries produce low quality stuff in general). Those products have to then be processed again into the polymers. Then those have to be molded and formed into whatever you're making. If any step in that process is broken, it's all broken. And if you're not producing the polymers there, you're jamming up the limited infrastructure to import.

Then you have to get it out. I did a quick Google- Accra's next big port expansion will add digitization, three decades behind the rest of the world. Then with the expansion you're looking at 3.7M annual TEUs total. You want to know what, for example, Shanghai handles? 50M+ TEUs per year. And that's just one of China's big ports. Then consider the highway linking the port to the city of Accra is 15 miles of mostly unlit potholed concrete, meaning you can't really run it at night and you can't run it at speed.

This is all why Africa is what it is.
 
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