Archbishop Desmond Tutu, anti apartheid activist, dead

[85SugarVol]

According to whom? If you go by things like human development index they aren't even top 10.

And see my other post- it's not so simple to "produce cheap plastic". The oil or gas (plastic raw material) has to be refined (and African refineries produce low quality stuff in general). Those products have to then be processed again into the polymers. Then those have to be molded and formed into whatever you're making. If any step in that process is broken, it's all broken. And if you're not producing the polymers there, you're jamming up the limited infrastructure to import.

Then you have to get it out. I did a quick Google- Accra's next big port expansion will add digitization, three decades behind the rest of the world. Then with the expansion you're looking at 3.7M annual TEUs total. You want to know what, for example, Shanghai handles? 50M+ TEUs per year. And that's just one of China's big ports. Then consider the highway linking the port to the city of Accra is 15 miles of mostly unlit potholed concrete, meaning you can't really run it at night and you can't run it at speed.

This is all why Africa is what it is.

Ok.

The world has manufactured in Africa before, does currently, and will continue to do so.

 

[ButchPlz]

Ok.

The world has manufactured in Africa before, does currently, and will continue to do so.

I'm explaining to you why it's not happening like it does in China. And the "world" isn't really manufacturing in Africa- production before was low-tech, ag-and-resource-focused extraction and limited processing, same as it is now. It's not really an argument, it's the reality.

 

[BreatheUT]

Tl; dr: most of Africa can't keep the plant powered to process the plastic, and even if they could the transport infrastructure is so bad it'd be so costly to get it moved out of the country there'd be no profit for whoever was making it.

I can start with the roads- in Botswana, as an example, a major part of their most major highway is washed away every year due to flooding rains, poor planning, and poor building. South Sudan, as another, has something like 84km of paved road in the entire country. Speeds on highway in most countries in Africa are highly limited primarily due to such crappy road condition where paved, and because of obstacles and missing road depending on the season where not paved. Rail is nearly nonexistent, and where there is rail the gauge changes between countries (depending on who originally developed it) and the actual rail vehicles- locomotives, cars, and the like- are from the early to mid 1960s- when all these countries became independent.

Most ports in Africa aren't properly dredged for ships that require deep harbors. For the ones that are, the equipment in the port- quayside gantry cranes, etc.- is extremely limited, and where it exists is in horrible condition. Most ports lack modern security, intermodal connection, cold storage, warehouses, forklifts, on and on- the things needed to effectively produce.

The worst, though, is probably the reliability of power. You can't manufacture without power, and where the Chinese (who are dominating electric infrastructure there) build a plant it's almost always garbage that's offline in no time. Where the Chinese haven't built these countries are running on infrastructure from- you guessed it- the 1960s, most of which is patched together. Brownouts are very common where the only decent roads and warehouses are.

Africa logistics and supply chain is my wheelhouse from my work. I can't get too deep into it but in general, the infrastructure there is almost entirely not suitable for any production outside agriculture.

Thanks for this very detailed info about the challenges of the supply chain. This underscores the challenges of a 3rd world continent that, in general, hasn't advanced from centuries earlier. Clearly the reasons why are a subject of a different discussion. To invest is either so costly or so risky that investors - individuals, companies, and/or governments - would need assurances on the front end in the form of natural resources or something tangible. I think that is what China is hoping. The task is so daunting and they may fail but they probably plan to suck resources in these places or build military infrastructure that helps them being worth the pennies on the dollar in the minimal upgrades they do for their roads and bridges projects.

 

[BreatheUT]

Hold your horses.

I'm not on the left.

I do care about slavery. I care about and pray for the freedom of those enslaved. I pray for the removal of those who hold the modern equivalent of whips and chains. When possible, I donate to ministries that work to free the oppressed and promote real and permanent change in countries where the rules are either non-existent, lax, or simply not enforced.

I'll save my receipts for you next time, as the standard of proof here is unevenly applied.

What about the slavery on the southern border of the US? Traffikers making women and girls sell azz for years and this government knows it exist and is exacerbating it with weak border policy. People having to move drugs or join gangs which is another form of slavery.

 

[BreatheUT]

Hold up. Is Charlotte a dude?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Hold up. Is Charlotte a dude?

I wondered that also.

 

[ButchPlz]

Hold up. Is Charlotte a dude?

I wondered that also.

Yes.

 

[Grand Vol]

What keeps US Business from moving “cheap plastic” production from China to Africa?

Stability

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

What keeps US Business from moving “cheap plastic” production from China to Africa?

An American president that is the lap dog of the Chinese leader? Just a guess.

Given time, Trump's tariffs would have potentially accomplished just what you mentioned. At a minimum, the companies producing them would have moved to another Asian nation. Tim Cook laughs to the bank every day when the potato in chief speaks.

 

[85SugarVol]

Stability

In country? Yea I’ll buy that.

Is the reduction in stability offset by the increased flexibility of decreased lead times and transportation spend.

 

[05_never_again]

Seems to be in line with much of what ButchPlz is talking about. It sounds like that while the continent is resource-rich, it actually has pretty poor geography overall.

 

[Grand Vol]

In country? Yea I’ll buy that.

Is the reduction in stability offset by the increased flexibility of decreased lead times and transportation spend.

Look at the simple facts...

Other than Kenya and Ethiopia and maybe a couple of others, how many African countries would you want to open a business in knowing they change regimes about as often as Ash changes underwear?

China, for all its faults, is stable. Hence, why businesses won't be moving from there to Africa.

 

[85SugarVol]

Look at the simple facts...

Other than Kenya and Ethiopia and maybe a couple of others, how many African countries would you want to open a business in knowing they change regimes about as often as Ash changes underwear?

China, for all its faults, is stable. Hence, why businesses won't be moving from there to Africa.

I get all of that. Beggars can’t be choosers, and not a lot to choose from in Africa.

I believe Ghana has been stable for about 30 years now. But definitely the exception. I’d go there.

 

[AshG]

Look at the simple facts...

Other than Kenya and Ethiopia and maybe a couple of others, how many African countries would you want to open a business in knowing they change regimes about as often as Ash changes underwear?

China, for all its faults, is stable. Hence, why businesses won't be moving from there to Africa.

That.... That was privileged information.... I thought we had something?

 

[Volaholic320]

Maybe if rampant colonialism hadn't resulted in the armed subjugation of the indigenous population and policies designed to prevent their advancement, there wouldn't have been so much struggle.

Rampant colonialism helped Africa, as did most of the world. Easy to complain about It when you've benefited so much from it.

 

[ButchPlz]

Rampant colonialism helped Africa, as did most of the world. Easy to complain about It when you've benefited so much from it.

They actually functioned at something closer to a society under various colonial rules, that's for sure.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Seems to be in line with much of what ButchPlz is talking about. It sounds like that while the continent is resource-rich, it actually has pretty poor geography overall.

I haven't listened to this yet, but I remember Adam Smith in Wealth of Nations talking about Africa lacking rivers that were connected to the Old World (except for The Nile). This limited the continent's ability to have trade, commerce and exchange of ideas and technology. Just looking at the avatar on that YouTube video, I'm guessing Thomas Sowell is going to maybe talk about that.

 

[05_never_again]

I haven't listened to this yet, but I remember Adam Smith in Wealth of Nations talking about Africa lacking rivers that were connected to the Old World (except for The Nile). This limited the continent's ability to have trade, commerce and exchange of ideas and technology. Just looking at the avatar on that YouTube video, I'm guessing Thomas Sowell is going to maybe talk about that.

That's exactly what he talks about, plus much more.

They do not have navigable rivers that flow from the coastlines into the interior (except for the Nile, and it isn't a coincidence the continent's only great civilization was built around it), very few natural harbors along the coastline of the continent, and the water at the coastline itself is very shallow for the most part, meaning ships have to park offshore and smaller ones have to run stuff back and forth.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

That's exactly what he talks about, plus much more.

They do not have navigable rivers that flow from the coastlines into the interior (except for the Nile, and it isn't a coincidence the continent's only great civilization was built around it), very few natural harbors along the coastline of the continent, and the water at the coastline itself is very shallow for the most part, meaning ships have to park offshore and smaller ones have to run stuff back and forth.

I was very surprised to read that in Wealth of Nations (I was probably In my early 20s) and wondared why that had not been mentioned before in mainstream discussions.

 

[05_never_again]

I was very surprised to read that in Wealth of Nations (I was probably In my early 20s) and wondared why that had not been mentioned before in mainstream discussions.

Because another explanation better serves a narrative.