Are you in favor of a bailout for the Automotive Industry?

Are you in favor of a bailout for the Automotive Industry?

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#51
#51
milohimself said:
Two things need to happen before I would be okay with a bailout. The unions need to go, and US automakers need to show they can build decent automobiles again. After working on cars for the last two years of my life, I got plenty of opportunities to see the shortcomings of American engineering. We are literally years/a decade behind Asia and Europe in terms of car production; technology and quality.

South Korea is capable of producing better cars than us now. It's getting sad. During my trip to Japan I got a chance to talk to some engineers for Nissan and Honda, who happened to be very bright. I've also gotten to speak to engineers for the big three over here. IMO other major car-manufacturing countries are simply producing many more people with better educations than the US who just produce better cars.

What needs to be done is a rejuvenation of automotive engineering programs at major universities by providing incentive to do so, and getting the funds available to make something like that happen (squashing unions, among other things).
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The reasons behind them producing better cars than us are not our Engineers. I would put an American educated engineer up against one of theirs any day a week and twice on Sunday. Those awesome Pruis's out there are actually built using proprietary knowledge from I think GM. The big 3 engineers are hamstrung by what they can do with cost and ROI, and it has been stated that safety is their number one mission when it comes to building a car.
As an engineer with that as your blueprint you think they are going to beat foreign auto makers? Its amazing we can even play on the same feild.
 
#52
#52
MontereyVol said:
The reasons behind them producing better cars than us are not our Engineers. I would put an American educated engineer up against one of theirs any day a week and twice on Sunday. Those awesome Pruis's out there are actually built using proprietary knowledge from I think GM. The big 3 engineers are hamstrung by what they can do with cost and ROI, and it has been stated that safety is their number one mission when it comes to building a car.
As an engineer with that as your blueprint you think they are going to beat foreign auto makers? Its amazing we can even play on the same feild.
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cost is absolutely the problem. For us to make something the quality of a Camry and sell it at a comparable price, we'd have to lose money. Hence, we really cheap down what we make then undercut the Japanese on price. So the stuff we make really sucks for the money and we have no design ingenuity because we spend no time on it. Why design something that is essentially unprofitable or going to be so dumbed down that it will suck reputationally?
 
#53
#53
BigPapaVol said:
cost is absolutely the problem. For us to make something the quality of a Camry and sell it at a comparable price, we'd have to lose money. Hence, we really cheap down what we make then undercut the Japanese on price. So the stuff we make really sucks for the money and we have no design ingenuity because we spend no time on it. Why design something that is essentially unprofitable or going to be so dumbed down that it will suck reputationally?
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Because thats what they get paid to do.
 
#55
#55
BigPapaVol said:
fyp
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I have no idea if the Engineers are being overpaid? They shouldn't be part of a union as salary workers. My understanding is the assembly line workers are making around $30-$50 an hour which would be higher than a salary engineer with 5 years or less experience.
 
#56
#56
MontereyVol said:
I have no idea if the Engineers are being overpaid? They shouldn't be part of a union as salary workers.
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I was referring to GM employees in general.

I suspect that the engineers are unionized as well.

Can you imagine the problems they're handed? Go out, build be a car like the Avalon, only you start $7500 in the hole, so you're going to need to design something we can build for $10K. Enjoy.
 
#57
#57
BigPapaVol said:
I was referring to GM employees in general.

I suspect that the engineers are unionized as well.

Can you imagine the problems they're handed? Go out, build be a car like the Avalon, only you start $7500 in the hole, so you're going to need to design something we can build for $10K. Enjoy.
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It does sound like a challenge, and I would like to know if the engineers are unionized since that would be against what the union stands for.
 
#59
#59
The Wall Street Journal Classroom Edition

Mr. Mellon, 55, joined GM in 1972, following his grandfather and his father. Through the 1980s and 1990s, Mr. Mellon held jobs designing electronic systems for vehicle prototypes. In 2000, GM merged two engineering divisions, and he wasn't needed anymore.

Since then, except for a period in 2001 when he worked on a military-truck project, GM has paid him his full salary for not working. That is currently $31 an hour, or about $64,500 a year, plus health care and other benefits

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Since then, except for a period in 2001 when he worked on a military-truck project, GM has paid him his full salary for not working. That is currently $31 an hour, or about $64,500 a year, plus health care and other benefits.

About 7,500 GM workers are now in the Jobs Bank, more than double the figure a year ago. Each person costs GM around $100,000 to $130,000 in wages and benefits, according to internal union and company figures, meaning GM's total cost this year is likely to be around $750 million to $900 million.

One way employees in the Jobs Bank can fulfill their requirements is to attend eight- or 12-week classes offered by GM. In these classes, Mr. Mellon has studied crossword puzzles, watched Civil War movies and learned about "manmade marvels like the Brooklyn Bridge," he says. One class taught him how to play Trivial Pursuit. More recently, he attended an institute in Flint called the Royal Flush Academy. It is designed for those seeking work in casinos. Mr. Mellon says he isn't interested in casino work and left the academy after they docked his pay because he was 10 minutes late coming back from lunch.
 
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#60
#60
BigPapaVol said:
Pilots are unionized in a big way.
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Yeah, but dont they fall under some weird railroad commerce status? Sounds strange but most of the commerce transportation industry falls in.

When I was in high school I worked for Averitt and they fell under some railroad act that allowed them to not pay us overtime.
 
#61
#61
BigPapaVol said:
I was referring to GM employees in general.

I suspect that the engineers are unionized as well.

Can you imagine the problems they're handed? Go out, build be a car like the Avalon, only you start $7500 in the hole, so you're going to need to design something we can build for $10K. Enjoy.
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Nope. At least they weren't during the 12 years I worked in the automotive industry.
 
#62
#62
droski said:
The Wall Street Journal Classroom Edition

Mr. Mellon, 55, joined GM in 1972, following his grandfather and his father. Through the 1980s and 1990s, Mr. Mellon held jobs designing electronic systems for vehicle prototypes. In 2000, GM merged two engineering divisions, and he wasn't needed anymore.

Since then, except for a period in 2001 when he worked on a military-truck project, GM has paid him his full salary for not working. That is currently $31 an hour, or about $64,500 a year, plus health care and other benefits

****************
Since then, except for a period in 2001 when he worked on a military-truck project, GM has paid him his full salary for not working. That is currently $31 an hour, or about $64,500 a year, plus health care and other benefits.

About 7,500 GM workers are now in the Jobs Bank, more than double the figure a year ago. Each person costs GM around $100,000 to $130,000 in wages and benefits, according to internal union and company figures, meaning GM's total cost this year is likely to be around $750 million to $900 million.

One way employees in the Jobs Bank can fulfill their requirements is to attend eight- or 12-week classes offered by GM. In these classes, Mr. Mellon has studied crossword puzzles, watched Civil War movies and learned about "manmade marvels like the Brooklyn Bridge," he says. One class taught him how to play Trivial Pursuit. More recently, he attended an institute in Flint called the Royal Flush Academy. It is designed for those seeking work in casinos. Mr. Mellon says he isn't interested in casino work and left the academy after they docked his pay because he was 10 minutes late coming back from lunch.
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unbelievable
 
#66
#66
I've owned one before, and I'll buy another one soon. Screw the unions.

kia.jpg
 
#67
#67
615 Vol said:
Anyone else hear of the possible merger between GM and Chrysler? Sounds like a disaster in the making. Now that they are looking for a bailout I don't know if that is still an option.

GM-Chrysler talks worry Detroit - Oct. 18, 2008
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pelosi says she doesnt' want any mergers. personally i thought it was a good idea since they were going to shut down 7 chrysler plans.
 
#68
#68
Quality control through capitalism. If you can't succeed making a product, then you don't make it anymore. Forget this bailout garbage. I'm not contributing my tax dollars so American manufacturers can continue to be completely outperformed by Japan, Korea and Germany.

Either American car manufacturers figure out how to start competing in passenger car production or they stop altogether.
 
#69
#69
milohimself said:
Quality control through capitalism. If you can't succeed making a product, then you don't make it anymore. Forget this bailout garbage. I'm not contributing my tax dollars so American manufacturers can continue to be completely outperformed by Japan, Korea and Germany.

Either American car manufacturers figure out how to start competing in passenger car production or they stop altogether.
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I'm not sure how you ended up getting to choose, but pass some info around so I can get some of that.
 
#70
#70
I'm sure you can ask some of your rich Republican buddies how to get around that pesky tax thing. :p

JK.

You know what I'm saying though.
 
#72
#72
Have you walked into threads on the Tennessee board to rip on Obama as well?

Keep it to threads about Obama. Otherwise it's a worthless contribution.
 
#73
#73
milohimself said:
Have you walked into threads on the Tennessee board to rip on Obama as well?

Keep it to threads about Obama. Otherwise it's a worthless contribution.
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Please keep rips about Republicans to thread about Republicans. Otherwise it's a worthless contribution. :eek:k:
 
#74
#74
milohimself said:
I'm sure you can ask some of your rich Republican buddies how to get around that pesky tax thing. :p

JK.

You know what I'm saying though.
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I hea you and agree.

Let's push for the well informed, good citizen line item veto. Who's in?

Milo and I get to decide who qualifies for the well informed piece.
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