Atlanta Braves Thread - Francisco Cabrera edition

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#6,627
#6,627
GreatWhiteNorth said:
Lady Vols are just depressing.
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I mean, they're 21-5. That's pretty good! The problem, of course, is that it's never going to be like it was ever again. There are way more than half a dozen teams that take women's BB seriously like there were when UT could take a Final Four for granted every year. And things wouldn't have been much different even if Pat had lived, because Holly coaches pretty much the same way Pat did. The women's game is just different now.

Tennessee is going to have a choice to make about the Lady Vols. If they want to be elite again, then they're going to have to dump money into a money-losing program. They're going to have to fire Holly and make a godfather, sport-altering offer to the best non-Geno coach they can get. There's no way to justify it financially so I doubt they'll ever do it, which is too bad.
 
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#6,628
#6,628
Vercingetorix said:
Tennessee is going to have a choice to make about the Lady Vols. If they want to be elite again, then they're going to have to dump money into a money-losing program. They're going to have to fire Holly and make a godfather, sport-altering offer to the best non-Geno coach they can get. There's no way to justify it financially so I doubt they'll ever do it, which is too bad.
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I don’t agree with this at all. I think Holly is truly not a good coach, and I don’t think it would take much to have this team playing at Final Four level. They can get there without having to make an offer to a McGraw/Mulkey/Staley type coach. Holley Warlick is terrible. They could probably bring in 4-5 coaches currently in the SEC and be better.
 
#6,629
#6,629
Vercingetorix said:
I mean, they're 21-5. That's pretty good! The problem, of course, is that it's never going to be like it was ever again. There are way more than half a dozen teams that take women's BB seriously like there were when UT could take a Final Four for granted every year. And things wouldn't have been much different even if Pat had lived, because Holly coaches pretty much the same way Pat did. The women's game is just different now.

Tennessee is going to have a choice to make about the Lady Vols. If they want to be elite again, then they're going to have to dump money into a money-losing program. They're going to have to fire Holly and make a godfather, sport-altering offer to the best non-Geno coach they can get. There's no way to justify it financially so I doubt they'll ever do it, which is too bad.
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Tennessee makes enough money to dump some into the women’s program if they wanted to. They just seem to not care (at least under Currie). Maybe that’ll change under Fulmer.

There’s too much talent for the team to lose to Bama at home. Holly just isn’t a good coach
 
#6,630
#6,630
GreatWhiteNorth said:
I don’t agree with this at all. I think Holly is truly not a good coach, and I don’t think it would take much to have this team playing at Final Four level. They can get there without having to make an offer to a McGraw/Mulkey/Staley type coach. Holley Warlick is terrible. They could probably bring in 4-5 coaches currently in the SEC and be better.
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Holly is more or less the same coach Pat was. Play defense, crash the boards, try harder. That's about it. It was enough when Pat had overwhelming talent, but it hasn't been ever since Candace Parker left. The malaise in the program is bigger than Holly.

I don't doubt that they could be better with any number of coaches. But there's a long way between "better" to "Tennessee is back to being one of the top three or four women's programs in the country." Which is why I think they need to throw down the gauntlet if they want to make it happen. Most likely result is that Holly ends up being replaced and Tennessee settles in as one of the better teams in a good conference, which won't ever seem good enough to any of us.
 
#6,631
#6,631
Vercingetorix said:
Holly is more or less the same coach Pat was. Play defense, crash the boards, try harder. That's about it. It was enough when Pat had overwhelming talent, but it hasn't been ever since Candace Parker left. The malaise in the program is bigger than Holly.
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I agree. Truth be told, the basketball that was being played in the good ole days wasn't much prettier than what they're doing right now.
 
#6,632
#6,632
We’ll agree to disagree on Pat v Holly. It wasn’t even close in my opinion. Especially from a leadership perspective.

I truly believe this program is back to Final Fours and competing for Nattys with a competent coach. They could bring in Kara Lawson and be worlds better and more disciplined than they are now.
 
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#6,633
#6,633
GreatWhiteNorth said:
Well agree to disagree on Pat v Holly. It wasn’t even close in my opinion. Especially from a leadership perspective.

I truly believe this program is back to Final Fours and competing for Nattys with a competent coach. They could bring in Kara Lawson and be worlds better and more disciplined than they are now.
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This. This. This.


Everyone tries to emulate Nick Saban and no one does, Holly is Derek Dooley trying to emulate the Saban model.

If Pat were still with us, and had these same players, the results would be different.
 
#6,634
#6,634
YankeeVol said:
Tennessee makes enough money to dump some into the women’s program if they wanted to. They just seem to not care (at least under Currie). Maybe that’ll change under Fulmer.

There’s too much talent for the team to lose to Bama at home. Holly just isn’t a good coach
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Fulmer's last five or six years as coach was what it was. It has been discussed ad nauseam.

But, I like what I have seen since he became AD. I truly think the guy cares about the Univ. versus just having another cush gig on the resume.

I don't recall seeing Currie at any games, much less the whole game as Fulmer does. i.e.

While not super wholly important, I think it's damn cool.

l8lIzvj.jpg
 
#6,635
#6,635
GreatWhiteNorth said:
We’ll agree to disagree on Pat v Holly. It wasn’t even close in my opinion. Especially from a leadership perspective.

I truly believe this program is back to Final Fours and competing for Nattys with a competent coach. They could bring in Kara Lawson and be worlds better and more disciplined than they are now.
Click to expand...

I think you've got a point on the leadership issue, but this kind of reminds me of how Kentucky basketball fans sounded when Tubby Smith was there. It was never as bad as they thought it was.
 
#6,638
#6,638
GreatWhiteNorth said:
We’ll agree to disagree on Pat v Holly. It wasn’t even close in my opinion. Especially from a leadership perspective.

I truly believe this program is back to Final Fours and competing for Nattys with a competent coach. They could bring in Kara Lawson and be worlds better and more disciplined than they are now.
Click to expand...

I just think it's a mistake to think, as so many fans seem to, that this is a still-elite program which Holly Warlick is personally ****ing up. I think it's more the case that this is a program which never really modernized while the sport changed dramatically around them. They were running the same prehistoric sets when I was in high school. It's just that for decades Pat could always count on having frontcourt players who could just go up and put back offensive rebounds against all but maybe three or four schools in the whole country, and Tennessee has never really done anything differently since that quit being true. Which is why I think they need to more or less salt the earth and start over while the brand is still strong, rather than bringing in anybody who's going to double down on doing it Pat's Way or something. JMO.
 
#6,639
#6,639
Finally the people of the Commonwealth of Virginia can get that beautiful T on their license plates.
 

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#6,640
#6,640
The Lady Vols have significantly more fans than any team not named UConn. Hard to believe that they can't be elite again. Holly is just a bad coach handpicked by a legend. If Tennessee was more cut throat she never would have been here in the first place.
 
#6,642
#6,642
Vercingetorix said:
I just think it's a mistake to think, as so many fans seem to, that this is a still-elite program which Holly Warlick is personally ****ing up. I think it's more the case that this is a program which never really modernized while the sport changed dramatically around them. They were running the same prehistoric sets when I was in high school. It's just that for decades Pat could always count on having frontcourt players who could just go up and put back offensive rebounds against all but maybe three or four schools in the whole country, and Tennessee has never really done anything differently since that quit being true. Which is why I think they need to more or less salt the earth and start over while the brand is still strong, rather than bringing in anybody who's going to double down on doing it Pat's Way or something. JMO.
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It is still an elite program that Holly is effing up. She was able to bring in 3 all-Americans this year and she is probably one of the worst coaches I’ve ever seen at a top tier program. There is no reason to think that another coach not affiliated with Pat and not a big name in the profession can’t bring in top talent.

The talent is there on the court. They are horribly, horribly coached. Who says we can’t bring in someone who runs a more modern offense?
 
#6,643
#6,643
GreatWhiteNorth said:
It is still an elite program that Holly is effing up. She was able to bring in 3 all-Americans this year and she is probably one of the worst coaches I’ve ever seen at a top tier program. There is no reason to think that another coach not affiliated with Pat and not a big name in the profession can’t bring in top talent.

The talent is there on the court. They are horribly, horribly coached. Who says we can’t bring in someone who runs a more modern offense?
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I don't really think we disagree on much, other than that you are laying it all on Warlick and I think it's been a decade-long institutional failure from Pat Summitt on down. Which means that you are probably more optimistic than I am that it'll get fixed.
 
#6,644
#6,644
Vercingetorix said:
I don't really think we disagree on much, other than that you are laying it all on Warlick and I think it's been a decade-long institutional failure from Pat Summitt on down. Which means that you are probably more optimistic than I am that it'll get fixed.
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I believe the team would be infinitely better with Pat, yes. I’m not optimistic at all it’s getting fixed. I think we’re stuck with Holly.
 
#6,645
#6,645
Vercingetorix said:
I don't really think we disagree on much, other than that you are laying it all on Warlick and I think it's been a decade-long institutional failure from Pat Summitt on down. Which means that you are probably more optimistic than I am that it'll get fixed.
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Pat’s last 3 years:

32-3
34-3
27-9 (coaching with denentia)

How was she part of the problem? Aside from hand picking Holly.
 
#6,647
#6,647
Scotty's Flat Top said:
Pat’s last 3 years:

32-3
34-3
27-9 (coaching with denentia)

How was she part of the problem? Aside from hand picking Holly.
Click to expand...

What I am arguing is that the process that you see playing out now started under her. They got drubbed out of the NCAA tournament in the first two of those years by Notre Dame and Baylor, both of whom had perimeter shooting and some ball motion and more or less a modern high school boys' offense; meanwhile our girls still looked like a hockey team playing dump and chase. By the time Pat retired UT had slipped from being an obvious top 2 program down to around top 8 or so; we're six years later into that process (and with several SEC teams in particular having improved dramatically) and we're still playing dump and chase. And the days of us playing 25 bye games a year (including almost every conference game) are over.
 
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#6,648
#6,648
Pat was a pioneer.

That doesn’t mean she was the GOAT.

I think Pat made women’s basketball and now there are more than a couple coaches better than her.

It’s not as much of a baby seal clubbing sport anymore. More than 3 teams can actually play now.
 
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