Bad Day for Wisconsin

#126
#126
Specs said:
I apologize for the lack of sources, Im in a hurry and cant grab them quick. I am considering posting a well sourced thread on the topic of corporate taxes though if there would be interest. For now take a look at the following from the bureau of labor statistics. If corporate tax rate was tied to the unemployment rate we would expect a positive correlation. Instead there isnt one to speak of at all.
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There would be interest.

And you have been absolutely correct to point out the disconnect - especially in the current climate of corporate hoarding - between corporate tax cuts and capital flight.
 
#127
#127
NEOCON said:
You are forgetting to factor in the state and city income tax of the business HQ and how this will effect the top execs. This does come into play.
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Any salary/bonus or benefit paid to an executive is deducted from taxable income. They are employees and a business cost like everyone else. The only people this would effect are shareholders expecting dividends Which may be executives to an extent, but most of them trade in options and share price not dividends.
 
#129
#129
Specs said:
Excellent idea. Lets look at the multiplier effect for various government actions. Here is a chart from Moodys Analytics, a private, for profit risk management service for capital markets.

It turns out tax cuts are one of the least stimulative actions a government can take. Note that this says nothing about the fairness of tax rates or cuts or the availability of funds to provide stimulus. If the goal is stimulus itself, tax cuts are a poor answer.
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Strange. Obamas own head economic advisor did a study that showed tax cuts had twice the multiplier effect of govt stimulus. Why didn't they do tax cuts then? Politics. No that couldn't be it
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#130
#130
Specs said:
Excellent idea. Lets look at the multiplier effect for various government actions. Here is a chart from Moodys Analytics, a private, for profit risk management service for capital markets.

It turns out tax cuts are one of the least stimulative actions a government can take. Note that this says nothing about the fairness of tax rates or cuts or the availability of funds to provide stimulus. If the goal is stimulus itself, tax cuts are a poor answer.
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Your graph is doctored. Why is it cut off at 2007?

FWIW, gov't spending has no residual value. The money is spent, something is consumed, business activity goes back to previous levels or possibly even lower levels. The current sluggish recovery is direct proof that gov't spending does not have the effect stated in that info. OTOH, the best thing about tax cuts and especially those on investments and business is the money gets turned many times- do business, make a profit, reinvest, make more profit, expand business through new investment, make more profit...

Each time profit is made... taxes are gathered. Even at a lower rate, you get more revenue. Liberals engage in handwave denials of this but the raw info is out there for anyone to look at themselves. On three occasions in the last 50 years, tax cuts were used to free up capital in response to recession: JFK, Reagan, W. Each time the economy responded and tax receipts to the Fed gov't went up.

Profit is NOT a dirty word.
 
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#131
#131
utgibbs said:
And yet the jobs we've been discussing in WI aren't created by businesses at all.

In fact, without those jobs, what would happen to business?

And, for the last time, show me how the $140 million in tax cuts became > $140 million for the people of Wisconsin. It has evidently thrown the state into "fiscal crisis" as we've been discussing for a few weeks now. Self-evident doesn't get, well, more self-evident than that.

It's "2nd grade stuff" after all. Show me, show me, show me (how you do that trick)....

I like IP a lot. But he lost the plot, and this debate, about as badly as one can.
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Answer the questions. Did those businesses leave the state? If they survived and stayed in Wisconsin in the current environment then it was a good investment.

This is supposedly your info... I'm not going to defend your point for you. Stop trying to evade and just answer the simple question.

Most businesses in mature industries net a bottom line of 3-6% profit in a normal economy. To answer Spec's objection, a $140 million tax cut would represent something less than 1% of gross revenue... At a very bare minimum, that comes to $14 billion in business activity. That tax cut could have EASILY been the difference between surviving and not surviving.

Here, I will make it easy. Name the top 10 beneficiaries of this tax cut and let's look at their situations.
 
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#132
#132
utgibbs said:
There would be interest.

And you have been absolutely correct to point out the disconnect - especially in the current climate of corporate hoarding - between corporate tax cuts and capital flight.
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Anyone who thinks businesses hoard capital for no reason knows nothing about business, investment, or "capital".

The challenge still stands though. Lead by example. Go out and risk everything you own. Sell your property or use if for collateral then invest everything you can get your hands on RIGHT NOW. Why won't you do that? Because you know that the risks are too great... which is exactly why businesses were previously holding reserves.

BTW, those reserves have been loosening up lately in spite of some pretty bad news across the globe. Why is that? The economic climate AND political climate have improved.
 
#133
#133
Specs said:
Any salary/bonus or benefit paid to an executive is deducted from taxable income. They are employees and a business cost like everyone else. The only people this would effect are shareholders expecting dividends Which may be executives to an extent, but most of them trade in options and share price not dividends.
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NO. You are not understanding my point. I obviously understand this.

My point is, A CEO who knows he is going to be at the helm for the next 6 years will take into account what his tax bracket would be where he is located and sometimes will opt to move a business with this in mind.

I DID.
 
#135
#135
droski said:
Strange. Obamas own head economic advisor did a study that showed tax cuts had twice the multiplier effect of govt stimulus. Why didn't they do tax cuts then? Politics. No that couldn't be it
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Actually there were tax cuts such as the payroll tax holiday, first time home buyer credit and others.

Id be interested in seeing this report from Obamas economic advisor that contradicts settled economic theory.
 
#136
#136
Specs said:
Actually there were tax cuts such as the payroll tax holiday, first time home buyer credit and others.

Id be interested in seeing this report from Obamas economic advisor that contradicts settled economic theory.
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if you believe that those were "tax cuts" you truly are drinking the Kool-Aid.
 
#137
#137
Specs said:
Actually there were tax cuts such as the payroll tax holiday, first time home buyer credit and others.

Id be interested in seeing this report from Obamas economic advisor that contradicts settled economic theory.
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Theory by definition is NOT settled... and this particular theory runs contrary to the direct evidence.

Each time over the last 50 years that tax cuts were used to stimulate the US economy while in recession, a robust recovery followed almost immediately. The academics (most of whom are leftists that believe in centrally planned economics to some degree or another) struggle with that reality because all of their theoretical models say their ideas should work.
 
#138
#138
Specs said:
Actually there were tax cuts such as the payroll tax holiday, first time home buyer credit and others.

Id be interested in seeing this report from Obamas economic advisor that contradicts settled economic theory.
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Settled economic theory? This is a joke right? Google romers study on tax cuts and get back to me
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#139
#139
utgibbs said:
I didn't see those polls.

But as I've shown ad infinitum the split on social programs is almost universally at least 67% / 33%. Universal health care is just another example. Often, in fact, when the issues are framed concretely and debated cogently in a "citizen's jury" style atmosphere (e.g. without toothpaste men propaganda), the ratio almost always shoots to 80 / 20.

Which demonstrates we have a "taxation without representation." Extra-parliamentary action is actually REQUIRED by the US Constitution.
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Rasmussen had a very interesting article a few days ago about why the polling on unions differed so widely. You should read it. Basically, the more specific a poll is about the circumstances without using generic, ambiguous terms.... the more the public is against unionism.
 
#141
#141
utgibbs said:
I didn't see those polls.

But as I've shown ad infinitum the split on social programs is almost universally at least 67% / 33%. Universal health care is just another example. Often, in fact, when the issues are framed concretely and debated cogently in a "citizen's jury" style atmosphere (e.g. without toothpaste men propaganda), the ratio almost always shoots to 80 / 20.

Which demonstrates we have a "taxation without representation." Extra-parliamentary action is actually REQUIRED by the US Constitution.
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Why try to lie? Everyone wants universal coverage in healthcare. The majority does NOT want a gov't run, one payer system like the left proposes. A clear and sustained majority want Obamacare repealed precisely because of the growth of gov't involved.

As for your supermajority non-sense. Consensus has NEVER been a valid measure of good or truth.

As a wise lady in my church says: right is right if no one is doing it. Wrong is wrong if everyone is doing it.

You continue to avoid the clear and consistent testimony of history. The economic and social ideals that you espouse simply do no work.
 
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#142
#142
sjt18 said:
Why try to lie? Everyone wants universal coverage in healthcare. The majority does NOT want a gov't run, one payer system like the left proposes. A clear and sustained majority want Obamacare repealed precisely because of the growth of gov't involved.
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Exactly. This is like asking if people want ice cream without mentioning they have to pay for theirs and two others.
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#143
#143
Specs said:
Any salary/bonus or benefit paid to an executive is deducted from taxable income. They are employees and a business cost like everyone else. The only people this would effect are shareholders expecting dividends Which may be executives to an extent, but most of them trade in options and share price not dividends.
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Taxes are a business cost that is calculated into a budget. Have you ever done a budget? I mean in real life, not the classroom.

On avg, raw mat'l composes about 45% of a mfg company's budget. If that company has a 4% margin, what happens if material prices rise 10%?

Taxes are no different. It is a cost figured into the budget. If they go up, you can attempt to pass them on in the price. OR, you can attempt to make it up in some other variable cost... like labor and benefits.
 
#144
#144
sjt18 said:
Why try to lie? Everyone wants universal coverage in healthcare. The majority does NOT want a gov't run, one payer system like the left proposes. A clear and sustained majority want Obamacare repealed precisely because of the growth of gov't involved.

As for your supermajority non-sense. Consensus has NEVER been a valid measure of good or truth.

As a wise lady in my church says: right is right if no one is doing it. Wrong is wrong if everyone is doing it.

You continue to avoid the clear and consistent testimony of history. The economic and social ideals that you espouse simply do no work.
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Even volinbham's link proved what I have said, sjt. Supermajority - shooting up to 80% in a "citizen jury" style debate.

You have a point about consensus, although I think the experience on VolNation is a little misleading.

Moreover, it's certainly not just consensus: it's data from the real world outside the back door. Namely, universal health care provides more bang for the buck, everywhere and without question.
 
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#145
#145
sjt18 said:
Taxes are a business cost that is calculated into a budget. Have you ever done a budget? I mean in real life, not the classroom.

On avg, raw mat'l composes about 45% of a mfg company's budget. If that company has a 4% margin, what happens if material prices rise 10%?

Taxes are no different. It is a cost figured into the budget. If they go up, you can attempt to pass them on in the price. OR, you can attempt to make it up in some other variable cost... like labor and benefits.
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This is exactly true.

The rate of Capital gains taxes will also change the price of the sale of a business. Many business try to factor in the gains tax into the over all price. If gains goes up the cost of the purchasing price will go up which means the buyer will have to borrow more and have more of a loan to factor into the annual operating expenses. At the end of the day, this difference would be passed onto the employees and dictate their pay along with other budgeting aspects. People don't seem to realize the trickle down effect taxes have on a business and its employees.
 
#148
#148
therealUT said:
Why anyone engages in any type of discourse with utgibbs is still beyond me...
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Let's be honest, when you are so far left that you clump you and I into a far right spectrum of yourself ... well, yeah you've went way way way to far left.

Then again, I don't even know if it's left. His views almost seem like a new direction.
 
#149
#149
therealUT said:
Why anyone engages in any type of discourse with utgibbs is still beyond me...
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I'll give gibbs props for one thing, persistence. Agree (minority here) or not (majority here) he seems to have strength of conviction.... or he is a master troll. He knows how to push buttons and keeps coming back...along with real world gorillas OTBD.
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#150
#150
NEOCON said:
Let's be honest, when you are so far left that you clump you and I into a far right spectrum of yourself ... well, yeah you've went way way way to far left.

Then again, I don't even know if it's left. His views almost seem like a new direction.
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He's going in a new direction alright, and everyone's following him right under the troll bridge.
 
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