Bad Day for Wisconsin

#76
#76
BigPapaVol said:
It's just a patently absurd argument.
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of course it is but gibbs will claim GSM because there was no oversized, Publishers Clearing House check for exactly $140mil presented to the Gov
 
#77
#77
utvolpj said:
you want to see if given back to the state when in fact the benefits were given back to the people (the goal of gov't right?) and the likelihood that it exceeded $140mil is very high
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They were given back to the corporations, not people.

Then it shouldn't be hard to show me.
 
#78
#78
utgibbs said:
Feel free to fill me in on what I missed.
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You keep repeating that the tax cuts didn't help the economy of WI. If those businesses are still in state and operating after the economy we've been through then the investment was worth it. A tax cut of $140 million suggests several billion dollars worth of economic activity... probably in the 10's if not 100's of billions. I know you struggle with the real sources of wealth within an economy and the dynamics of wealth creation... but those tax cuts mean that the state got taxes from employees and other effected businesses and individuals that would have otherwise needed unemployment and other benefits. It is very likely a tax cut of that size would pay back more than its value in avoided entitlement claims and economic activity.

Do you understand the concept of inventory turns and why they are important to profitability? That's the same basic concept as supply side economics.
 
#79
#79
utgibbs said:
Sigh.

Those shops would still be there if the workers owned the corporations, for instance.

They are all around the military bases in the country (and outside the country).

They are all around the BBC offices in London.

They used to be all around Main Street USA when people actually owned businesses.

etc.
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you mean like all the shops going bankrupt when the military bases close?
 
#81
#81
utgibbs said:
It clearly has been regarding the $140 million in giveaways, which was always the issue.

Show me > $140 million to the state of Wisconsin. Show me the money!
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Where do taxes come from? People. Where do people get money? Jobs. Where do people get jobs? Businesses.

This is 2nd grade-level relationships, here. You're acting like if every business in Wisconsin left, the state would have 140 million more bucks. That's retarded. You may be brain damaged. That isn't a personal attack, that's a plea for you to seek medical assistance.
 
#82
#82
jwells said:
Sorry, wasn't clear. My point is, I don't see it as a sustainable system. On a 52k final 5year avg salary (top for a teacher with Masters) the pay out is projected to be 2047 a month. 24k a year.

Not exactly a big time salary. Now, if you are a principal or administrator, that increases, but it's not a big-time retirement plan. The TN plan doesn't work like a true pension.

That said, I would rather have a 3-4% match and choose my investment.

https://ja.state.tn.us/treasury/tcrs/iirc/StateTeachersInput.jsp
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agreed. didn't realize it was only 50% of last years salary. that is very reasonable and sustainable. california is 80%.
 
#83
#83
droski said:
you mean like all the shops going bankrupt when the military bases close?
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Defense budget is going up, so I hear.

The point is anytime you get people working somewhere - whether public or private - you get the "knock-on" businesses.

Help me out here, droski. I know accountants have a name for these business which thrive on a primary driver. You're good at vocabulary.
 
#85
#85
utgibbs said:
Almost as absurd as your complete inability to show me the money.
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Your English worse than your math? I'm unwilling and I know from experience that you have no prayer of doing it yourself. That entertains me.
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#87
#87
jwells said:
Sorry, wasn't clear. My point is, I don't see it as a sustainable system. On a 52k final 5year avg salary (top for a teacher with Masters) the pay out is projected to be 2047 a month. 24k a year.

Not exactly a big time salary. Now, if you are a principal or administrator, that increases, but it's not a big-time retirement plan. The TN plan doesn't work like a true pension.

That said, I would rather have a 3-4% match and choose my investment.

https://ja.state.tn.us/treasury/tcrs/iirc/StateTeachersInput.jsp
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throw in at least $1000/month in social security retirement payments, the good possibility that the house is paid for and the kids have lives of their own, and 36k + medical doesn't sound like such a bad deal.

that's assuming the retiree is single and did nothing else to plan for retirement.
 
#88
#88
droski said:
agreed. didn't realize it was only 50% of last years salary. that is very reasonable and sustainable. california is 80%.
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See no exhorbatent costs... I knew you would think it reasonable with the proper info.
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#89
#89
utgibbs said:
Defense budget is going up, so I hear.

The point is anytime you get people working somewhere - whether public or private - you get the "knock-on" businesses.
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True. But you do not necessarily get wealth creation.

We are in trouble for two pretty basic reasons. One, productivity. We have people who demand more money for less work and it hurts us all. Moreover, a very large % of Americans gets paid for doing nothing productive at all... and some for doing very little to nothing productive for their whole lives. Two, we simply aren't engaged in enough wealth generating ventures. We keep dancing around the chairs but the truth is that there aren't enough to go around when the music stops.
 
#90
#90
IPorange said:
Where do taxes come from? People. Where do people get money? Jobs. Where do people get jobs? Businesses.
This is 2nd grade-level relationships, here. You're acting like if every business in Wisconsin left, the state would have 140 million more bucks. That's retarded. You may be brain damaged. That isn't a personal attack, that's a plea for you to seek medical assistance.
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I thought the issue in Wisconsin was about people who got their jobs from the state....

Hate to do this to you, IP, but Game, Set, and Match. You've earned it. You not only failed to bring your A-game, you brought your Fail Game instead.

Walker et al took $140 million out of the Wisconsin coffers under, what would be their justification, to improve the state economy. The corporations would spend it more efficieintly - blah, blah, blah the standard rationale.

So, show me where the people (referencing utpjvol's argument) received > $140 million from these tax cuts.
 
#91
#91
MG1968 said:
throw in at least $1000/month in social security retirement payments, the good possibility that the house is paid for and the kids have lives of their own, and 36k + medical doesn't sound like such a bad deal.

that's assuming the retiree is single and did nothing else to plan for retirement.
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a lot of state employees dont get social security. of course they don't pay the taxes either (i think i'd rather have that deal).
 
#92
#92
MG1968 said:
throw in at least $1000/month in social security retirement payments, the good possibility that the house is paid for and the kids have lives of their own, and 36k + medical doesn't sound like such a bad deal.

that's assuming the retiree is single and did nothing else to plan for retirement.
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for TN teachers it's really not much
 
#93
#93
utgibbs said:
I thought the issue in Wisconsin was about people who got their jobs from the state....

Hate to do this to you, IP, but Game, Set, and Match. You've earned it. You not only failed to bring your A-game, you brought your Fail Game instead.

Walker et al took $140 million out of the Wisconsin coffers under, what would be their justification, to improve the state economy. The corporations would spend it more efficieintly - blah, blah, blah the standard rationale.

So, show me where the people (referencing utpjvol's argument) received > $140 million from these tax cuts.
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you're the one claiming it didn't. The onus is on you
 
#94
#94
utgibbs said:
So, show me where the people (referencing utpjvol's argument) received > $140 million from these tax cuts.
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i tell you what. if you show me the hundreds of thousands of jobs saved by obama's stimulus plan i'll show you evidence of the people making money from these tax cuts. i'll help you out. neither is an available tangable number. go google multiplier effect and get back to me.
 
#95
#95
IPorange said:
Where do taxes come from? People. Where do people get money? Jobs. Where do people get jobs? Businesses.

This is 2nd grade-level relationships, here. You're acting like if every business in Wisconsin left, the state would have 140 million more bucks. That's retarded. You may be brain damaged. That isn't a personal attack, that's a plea for you to seek medical assistance.
Click to expand...

If you get a real response to this simple explanation... please PM me so I don't miss it. I am still struggling about whether to believe that gibbs is a complete fake or if someone can truly be as detached from the real world as he is.
 
#96
#96
sjt18 said:
True. But you do not necessarily get wealth creation.

We are in trouble for two pretty basic reasons. One, productivity. We have people who demand more money for less work and it hurts us all. Moreover, a very large % of Americans gets paid for doing nothing productive at all... and some for doing very little to nothing productive for their whole lives. Two, we simply aren't engaged in enough wealth generating ventures. We keep dancing around the chairs but the truth is that there aren't enough to go around when the music stops.
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First, productivity has never been higher in history.

Second, the real issue is the growth imperative no longer contributes to an improvement in quality of life.

I would say we really have to rethink wealth, sjt. We are on a trajectory where we will not make it to the next century based on the demands of wealth generation required by the current system.
 
#97
#97
sjt18 said:
If you get a real response to this simple explanation... please PM me so I don't miss it. I am still struggling about whether to believe that gibbs is a complete fake or if someone can truly be as detached from the real world as he is.
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despite his claims to the contrary, Gibbs is clearly a devotee of Michael Moore, which would explain his detachment from reality and general fakey-ness.
 
#98
#98
utgibbs said:
First, productivity has never been higher in history.

Second, the real issue is the growth imperative no longer contributes to an improvement in quality of life.

I would say we really have to rethink wealth, sjt. We are on a trajectory where we will not make it to the next century based on the demands of wealth generation required by the current system.
Click to expand...

productivity has never been higher in the PRIVATE sector.
 
#99
#99
droski said:
i tell you what. if you show me the hundreds of thousands of jobs saved by obama's stimulus plan i'll show you evidence of the people making money from these tax cuts. i'll help you out. neither is an available tangable number. go google multiplier effect and get back to me.
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Multiplier effect requires reinvestment.

There has been almost none.

But please, give us the curve showing tax cuts to the rich and corporations and the "trickle down" effect.

We already lived through that, and it didn't work, droski.
 
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