Bad Science

#2
#2
This is one thing that is very difficult to get other science teachers to understand. My fellow science teachers are very much "Trust the Science" and I'm always trying to remind them that is the exact opposite of how you get scientific advancement.

Also, where does the funding of the "zombie" research come from. I have a pretty strong hunch but I'd rather it be confirmed
 
#4
#4
Wasn't sure if we had an appropriate thread for this but it's pretty eye-opening. I'm betting it's similar in the social sciences as well.

How Much Scientific Research Is Actually Fraudulent?

My God, that article spoke to my soul. So beautiful!

I'm glad my research methodology courses included firm grounding in research ethics. This is a "publish or perish" world where you've got to get those data out before your grant runs out or the private company pulls your funding. It gets easily pressured researchers to do stupid stuff they know they shouldn't.
 
#5
#5
My God, that article spoke to my soul. So beautiful!

I'm glad my research methodology courses included firm grounding in research ethics. This is a "publish or perish" world where you've got to get those data out before your grant runs out or the private company pulls your funding. It gets easily pressured researchers to do stupid stuff they know they shouldn't.

Interesting the media takes the same approach...
 
#8
#8
My God, that article spoke to my soul. So beautiful!

I'm glad my research methodology courses included firm grounding in research ethics. This is a "publish or perish" world where you've got to get those data out before your grant runs out or the private company pulls your funding. It gets easily pressured researchers to do stupid stuff they know they shouldn't.

I go back to the system - replication is of no publication value so the incentives are to "find" something new.

Tangental Rant: As for funding, we only appear to value (in biomedical) findings of increases in efficacy as opposed to incentivizing efficiency (eg. same clinical outcomes but at lower cost). One reason for our ever growing HC costs is we intentionally promote the development of cutting edge rather than more cost effective ways to treat.
 
#9
#9
I go back to the system - replication is of no publication value so the incentives are to "find" something new.

Tangental Rant: As for funding, we only appear to value (in biomedical) findings of increases in efficacy as opposed to incentivizing efficiency (eg. same clinical outcomes but at lower cost). One reason for our ever growing HC costs is we intentionally promote the development of cutting edge rather than more cost effective ways to treat.

I can't recall ever hearing much about it, but I've wondered for a very long time about "maintenance" drugs - if there's more profit in selling those than developing cures.
 
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#13
#13
Oh, I would definitely bet the social sciences are nothing but a leftwing open credit card.

And you'd be mistaken. There are some crazy private colleges and universities that research social science topics that make my head spin, but your average public university stays away from the deep end of the crazy pool. The last thing you want is the state legislature cutting everyone's finding because of one department's wild hair.
 
#15
#15
I can't recall ever hearing much about it, but I've wondered for a very long time about "maintenance" drugs - if there's more profit in selling those than developing cures.
You're joking, right? The answer is relatively obvious.
 
#16
#16
And you'd be mistaken. There are some crazy private colleges and universities that research social science topics that make my head spin, but your average public university stays away from the deep end of the crazy pool. The last thing you want is the state legislature cutting everyone's finding because of one department's wild hair.

Yes, but does it have any application - any touch with reality? Years ago when I was in grad school (Nuc Engr) I had a couple of very interesting talks with professors about my future (testing and grades); both told me to stay the course that there was a huge disconnect between research and application, and I was good at connecting it. Unguided research with no probable application by people with no sense of how the world really works is generally money and time wasted. Sometimes something comes of it - enough monkeys, typewriters, time and they type out a coherent document.

One current misguided research project is climate change. The basic problem is nobody knows the norm. Example: I inherited a nice clothes washer with this house, but it doesn't work right - that much I can deduce. I ordered a part (shift actuator) and replaced it today - that's where I started because it is apparently a generic problem, fit symptoms, and it was a $50 part whereas the control board is $300+. So the washer made it through to the end of the "Normal" cycle; that's an improvement, but it's still not right. I don't really know the definition of "right" because I never used the washer in it's normal state - never heard normal noises and never saw normal actions. My senses say that because water went in during the rinse cycle and stuff didn't get swished around before the spin, it just ain't right - the controls are scrambled. So next step is pull the control board, inspect for faulty components and solder joints - if I find and can fix then do that and pop it back in - if nothing changes or there's no evidence of bad soldering or components then a new board is in order. I've worked on electro/mechanical stuff enough over the years to have a decent handle on how things work; unguided research fails that test no matter how brilliant the researchers.
 
#17
#17
Yes, but does it have any application - any touch with reality? Years ago when I was in grad school (Nuc Engr) I had a couple of very interesting talks with professors about my future (testing and grades); both told me to stay the course that there was a huge disconnect between research and application, and I was good at connecting it. Unguided research with no probable application by people with no sense of how the world really works is generally money and time wasted. Sometimes something comes of it - enough monkeys, typewriters, time and they type out a coherent document.

One current misguided research project is climate change. The basic problem is nobody knows the norm. Example: I inherited a nice clothes washer with this house, but it doesn't work right - that much I can deduce. I ordered a part (shift actuator) and replaced it today - that's where I started because it is apparently a generic problem, fit symptoms, and it was a $50 part whereas the control board is $300+. So the washer made it through to the end of the "Normal" cycle; that's an improvement, but it's still not right. I don't really know the definition of "right" because I never used the washer in it's normal state - never heard normal noises and never saw normal actions. My senses say that because water went in during the rinse cycle and stuff didn't get swished around before the spin, it just ain't right - the controls are scrambled. So next step is pull the control board, inspect for faulty components and solder joints - if I find and can fix then do that and pop it back in - if nothing changes or there's no evidence of bad soldering or components then a new board is in order. I've worked on electro/mechanical stuff enough over the years to have a decent handle on how things work; unguided research fails that test no matter how brilliant the researchers.

Your first part is why I'm a research pragmatist. There's enough people working on theoretical research; I want to identify real problems so I can devise and test possible solutions. There will never be Ash's Theory of Whatever unless the opportunity arises in the middle of my action research.

And you're right on the money: unguided research is a cluster.
 
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#18
#18
Yes, but does it have any application - any touch with reality? Years ago when I was in grad school (Nuc Engr) I had a couple of very interesting talks with professors about my future (testing and grades); both told me to stay the course that there was a huge disconnect between research and application, and I was good at connecting it. Unguided research with no probable application by people with no sense of how the world really works is generally money and time wasted. Sometimes something comes of it - enough monkeys, typewriters, time and they type out a coherent document.

One current misguided research project is climate change. The basic problem is nobody knows the norm. Example: I inherited a nice clothes washer with this house, but it doesn't work right - that much I can deduce. I ordered a part (shift actuator) and replaced it today - that's where I started because it is apparently a generic problem, fit symptoms, and it was a $50 part whereas the control board is $300+. So the washer made it through to the end of the "Normal" cycle; that's an improvement, but it's still not right. I don't really know the definition of "right" because I never used the washer in it's normal state - never heard normal noises and never saw normal actions. My senses say that because water went in during the rinse cycle and stuff didn't get swished around before the spin, it just ain't right - the controls are scrambled. So next step is pull the control board, inspect for faulty components and solder joints - if I find and can fix then do that and pop it back in - if nothing changes or there's no evidence of bad soldering or components then a new board is in order. I've worked on electro/mechanical stuff enough over the years to have a decent handle on how things work; unguided research fails that test no matter how brilliant the researchers.

Just be happy you have an agitator. Whoever deisgned the non-agitator washer was an idiot.
 
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#19
#19
Just be happy you have an agitator. Whoever deisgned the non-agitator washer was an idiot.

It's not much of an agitator - just a little thing in the bottom that tries to swish clothes through too little water. If I'm serious, I just forget "Normal" and go to "Deep Water". We got stupid in appliance design to save a gallon of water.
 
#20
#20
Your first part is why I'm a research pragmatist. There's enough people working on theoretical research; I want to identify real problems so I can devise and test possible solutions. There will never be Ash's Theory of Whatever unless the opportunity arises in the middle of my action research.

And you're right on the money: unguided research is a cluster.

I was thinking about what you said while working on the washer. Using music, I see you as someone who understands the process ... someone able to hear something played and inherently know something is wrong. The question at that point is whether the original composer was clueless, just weird, or whether the "artist" simply can't play it. With a little looking into the music, I have no doubt you could quickly conclude what the case might be because of your experience and what would be the wealth of available relevant information - the score. We lack that practical experience and guidance in so many areas, and don't want to learn the basics.
 
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#22
#22
And you'd be mistaken. There are some crazy private colleges and universities that research social science topics that make my head spin, but your average public university stays away from the deep end of the crazy pool. The last thing you want is the state legislature cutting everyone's finding because of one department's wild hair.
This is totally false. I'd say the percentage of universities that have not drowned in the crazy pool is in the single digits. One would basically need to have their bullsh!t filter on constantly to resist the lunacy while trying to get an education.
 
#23
#23
This is totally false. I'd say the percentage of universities that have not drowned in the crazy pool is in the single digits. One would basically need to have their bullsh!t filter on constantly to resist the lunacy while trying to get an education.

And you know this by personal experience?
 
#25
#25
I do. Except when I went the narrative that this country is not great or doesn't live up to expectations was not prevalent. It's much worse now.

Funny... I've not experienced the level of antipathy you're talking about, either as a student over three degrees or as a professor at two universities. Are there pockets of it on most campuses? Yeah. But the are just as many pockets of positivity and patriotism that would make you proud.

I guess it's a case of you're always going to find what you're looking for.
 
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