Ball Handling

[VolsFan4Ever-11]

About what? Look at the numbers. McBee's 2 TO's hurt less than Golden's 17 or whatever it was.. Even if McBee was 0-6 yesterday. Atleast 3 of those were shots from 28 feet trying to beat the shot clock due to no ball movement by the point guard.

About the reading comprehension part, and you saying I was defending Golden. You still have ignored that part.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Someone's backtracking in the face of factual information.. And saying a missed 3pt is a turnover is idiotic. Just admit you were wrong. Again.

How am I backtracking? You said golden was more harmful to this team than mcbee, that's blatantly wrong yet you won't admit it.

I've not changed my stance one but about yesterday, everyone on the team played poorly, yes including golden, but golden was not more harmful than mcbee as you suggest.

As I said you clearly are a relative or a significant other, you're the biggest mcbee supporter on the board. Even after a horrid day like yesterday you must run to his defense, and say things like EVERYONE criticizes mcbee first thing after a lost which isn't true. You are just completely over sensitive when it comes to mcbee, yet have no problem criticizing evey other player on the team.

We've tried mcbee at PG, do you not remember how that worked out for us?

 

[bleedingTNorange]

About what? Look at the numbers. McBee's 2 TO's hurt less than Golden's 17 or whatever it was.. Even if McBee was 0-6 yesterday. Atleast 3 of those were shots from 28 feet trying to beat the shot clock due to no ball movement by the point guard.

Are you blind

Golden turnover led to 10 points he scored 12 so his offense out scored his mistakes

Mcbee fouls led to 9 points, and I'm gonna guess his long rebound bricks led to atleast 2 points. He scored 0, so his mistakes completely out scored his offensive output.

And seriously all his shots came trying to beat the shot clock? 1 of his 7 misses came with the clock under 5, good try though.

So clearly you are wrong, AGAIN! What else should I expect from a soccer fan posting in a basketball forum though.

 

[VolsFan4Ever-11]

About what? Look at the numbers. McBee's 2 TO's hurt less than Golden's 17 or whatever it was.. Even if McBee was 0-6 yesterday. Atleast 3 of those were shots from 28 feet trying to beat the shot clock due to no ball movement by the point guard.

Still waiting.

 

[Chris4Vols22]

About what? Look at the numbers. McBee's 2 TO's hurt less than Golden's 17 or whatever it was.. Even if McBee was 0-6 yesterday. Atleast 3 of those were shots from 28 feet trying to beat the shot clock due to no ball movement by the point guard.

I love you're enthusiasm, but I hate how you struggle connecting the dots in the game of basketball. You provide interesting insight.

Compliment sammich. Someone give me a cookie!

 

[LibertyVolance]

Atleast he scores more than he gives up, same cant be said for mcbrick.

That is true enough, but Martin continues playing McBee for some reason and it sure isn't defense. It has to be that his ball handling or shooting ability is better than the rest. It must be something that makes him feel better with McBee on the court.

 

[LibertyVolance]

just thought the vols lost and no one played good, it would been hard to beat anyone with the performance today, just saying part of a team game

This year, Golden has impressed me as a reliable player. He is learning the PG position and still has a ways to go, but Golden and Mayman have both been the most consistent players on this year's team. I'd hate to think where we'd be without them.

 

[Spartacavolus]

That is true enough, but Martin continues playing McBee for some reason and it sure isn't defense. It has to be that his ball handling or shooting ability is better than the rest. It must be something that makes him feel better with McBee on the court.

He is steady for cm. He just had a bad game. There's no reason one should've assumed he would have kept up his shooting pace, but ohfer stunk.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

That is true enough, but Martin continues playing McBee for some reason and it sure isn't defense. It has to be that his ball handling or shooting ability is better than the rest. It must be something that makes him feel better with McBee on the court.

its very simple, this team is in desperate need of offense from the 2 and 3 position. the only real alternative at the 2 is to play richardson, and he brings very little to no offense, so you have to play mcbee and hope that he can hit his open shots.

when he is hitting from 3 our offense is so much better, it isnt neccessarily just him either, our offense at this point is just very reliant on having a knock down shooter out there. if tatum would start hitting his open looks itd also help, but i feel that most have lost any faith in that one.

the problem imo with our outside shooting is everyone seems to be streaky with eachother. when mcbee was going 4-7, tatum was hitting some, and golden hit some, and richardson hit some. BUT when mcbee goes 0-7 yesterday nobody else can hit any shots either it seems and we just go cold from the outside as a team. that is a major problem that when 1 guys cold the whole team is cold and when 1 guy gets hot the whole team gets hot.

this is why i say we need to have a consistent 3 point shooter on this team, and at this point in my opinion is the biggest thing missing at this point. production from the 2 and 3 spot from 3.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

He is steady for cm. He just had a bad game. There's no reason one should've assumed he would have kept up his shooting pace, but ohfer stunk.

Bingo! i dont think anyone can honestly expect 50% from him night in and night out, but to go 0-7 was definitely unexpected in my opinion. he's got to be able to hit a few of those with that many opportunities.

 

[altidore17]

Are you blind

Golden turnover led to 10 points he scored 12 so his offense out scored his mistakes

Mcbee fouls led to 9 points, and I'm gonna guess his long rebound bricks led to atleast 2 points. He scored 0, so his mistakes completely out scored his offensive output.

And seriously all his shots came trying to beat the shot clock? 1 of his 7 misses came with the clock under 5, good try though.

So clearly you are wrong, AGAIN! What else should I expect from a soccer fan posting in a basketball forum though.

So you're going to count his fouls, some of which came off golden's turnovers, against him and not golden? You are either incredibly stupid or just like to make people believe you are.

 

[altidore17]

its very simple, this team is in desperate need of offense from the 2 and 3 position. the only real alternative at the 2 is to play richardson, and he brings very little to no offense, so you have to play mcbee and hope that he can hit his open shots.

when he is hitting from 3 our offense is so much better, it isnt neccessarily just him either, our offense at this point is just very reliant on having a knock down shooter out there. if tatum would start hitting his open looks itd also help, but i feel that most have lost any faith in that one.

the problem imo with our outside shooting is everyone seems to be streaky with eachother. when mcbee was going 4-7, tatum was hitting some, and golden hit some, and richardson hit some. BUT when mcbee goes 0-7 yesterday nobody else can hit any shots either it seems and we just go cold from the outside as a team. that is a major problem that when 1 guys cold the whole team is cold and when 1 guy gets hot the whole team gets hot.

this is why i say we need to have a consistent 3 point shooter on this team, and at this point in my opinion is the biggest thing missing at this point. production from the 2 and 3 spot from 3.

Once again not admitting any fault on golden's part. It's all on the 2 and 3 guards.. Pitiful. Golden's about inconsistent as it gets. I'd love a little consistency from the PG position personally.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

So you're going to count his fouls, some of which came off golden's turnovers, against him and not golden? You are either incredibly stupid or just like to make people believe you are.

And the fact you think golden is more harmful to this team says all ANYONE needs to know about your knowledge of the game.

Answer this... Who could we afford to lose more, trae or skylar?

That'll tell you which is less useful to this team, and in effect is more harmful to this team.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Once again not admitting any fault on golden's part. It's all on the 2 and 3 guards.. Pitiful. Golden's about inconsistent as it gets. I'd love a little consistency from the PG position personally.

You are too dumb to argue with. I clearly said we are in DESPERATE NEED OF OFFENSE FROM THE 2 and 3 POSITION. We doNt need offense from golden he provides plenty, you seriously need reading comprehension classes good god.

Once again though you have proven that when you see mcbee name you have to run to his defense without comprehending the rest of the post. All I said was we need offense from the 2 or 3 position, do you really think we need more offense from golden? That was te discussion so don't turn it into consistency or turnovers it was about offensive production and 3 point shooting so please answer....

Do you really think we need more offense from golden, but not skylar, cam, or josh?

 

[VOLINVONORE]

How quickly things change.

Have you seen the past 4 games, we were fine handling the ball for the most part in those. Passing has looked really bad in that same span though.

I have seen almost all the games and I still say we need point guard. We can not break a press without scaring me to death. When our guard finally decide to drive to the basket, they try to shoot the ball in the midst of 6'8 or taller players and maybe 10% of the time will dish off to the open player under the basket. I also believe the reason we don't score many points on fast breaks is we can not handle the ball well enough and throw it away too many times. Most of these problems can be solved with a good PG.

 

[1985Vols]

We do need a point guard, however, thank goodness we have GOlden filling that need for us because I can't think what we would be like without him playing out of position and filling that need. In addition, he has a badly sprained ankle so his movement is limited. Bottom line, just like most of Bruce Pearl's teams, we still need a "real" point guard.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I hate to tell you all this but unless Stanton turns out to be a stud our PG the next 2 years is golden.

So hope that he improves. Personally I think he will, ball handling can be easily improved in an off season of hard work. Stick him with Tracy Webster, our assistant coach who was arguably the best PG in wisoncin history, for the offseason and I feel it'd do wonders for him.

 

[calban]

I hate to tell you all this but unless Stanton turns out to be a stud our PG the next 2 years is golden.

So hope that he improves. Personally I think he will, ball handling can be easily improved in an off season of hard work. Stick him with Tracy Webster, our assistant coach who was arguably the best PG in wisoncin history, for the offseason and I feel it'd do wonders for him.

Since you bring up Stanton, I think you made the statement that you didn't like his numbers as a freshman at Clemson and didn't think he'd make it at the point here.
If you go back and compare his season as a back up to golden's freshman year the numbers are pretty close.
In fact Stanton's shooting percentages were higher except for FTs.
I recently heard Martin's reasoning for keeping golden at the point.
In Martin's opinion he's too small to play the two in the pros.
I like Martin but I disagree with his reasoning here. this is college and Golden is certainly big enough to play the 2 in college. I really don't give a rats ass where he's going to play in the European leagues.
If Golden can learn to handle the ball between now and next season, Okay.
But if he's still making dumb ass passes next season he needs to move him.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Since you bring up Stanton, I think you made the statement that you didn't like his numbers as a freshman at Clemson and didn't think he'd make it at the point here.
If you go back and compare his season as a back up to golden's freshman year the numbers are pretty close.
In fact Stanton's shooting percentages were higher except for FTs.
I recently heard Martin's reasoning for keeping golden at the point.
In Martin's opinion he's too small to play the two in the pros.
I like Martin but I disagree with his reasoning here. this is college and Golden is certainly big enough to play the 2 in college. I really don't give a rats ass where he's going to play in the European leagues.
If Golden can learn to handle the ball between now and next season, Okay.
But if he's still making dumb ass passes next season he needs to move him.

they are very close,but the numbers that stick out to me in comparable minutes golden averaged almost 3x the assists and the same amount of turnovers. he also averaged twice the rebounds stanton did. as i said my biggest thing is when you look at their PG skill set; assist, turnovers, assist to turnover ratio, rebounds, ft, steals....if you multiply to get 32 minute production this is what you get:

Golden: 5.3 assists/game 2.4 turnovers/game 2.2a:to 2.6 rebounds/game 1.7 steals/game 83%ft

Stanton: 2.4 assists/game 1.8 turnovers/ game 1.3a:to 1.8 rebounds/game 1.8 steals/ game 67%ft

so really in every statistical category golden freshman year appears better than stanton. i will say one thing i do like about stanton from first glance is his size. he is 5'10 170lbs so i am going to assume he is probably very quick and can stick with the opposing teams PG much better than our current defenders do. also, when teams want to play zone, i would assume that he is going to be much quicker than golden is and will be able to penetrate the zone.

i am in no way saying that i dont want stanton to be our PG next year, i'll put it in big bold letters if need be, that if stanton can put up 4 assists 1.5 turnovers a game a couple steals and shoot a good enough percentage to keep defenses honest im all for him starting. my biggest concern is the biggest concern on golden, ball handling, the numbers dont make him look good, but then again numbers can be very deceiveing.

i am with you on CCM reasoning for golden playing the point, we cant really be worried about how they fit at the next level, this is college not nba. with that said i have heard him give other reasonings at various times, but yes i have heard that reason as well that he is a PG at the next level not a SG. i think he sees something in him honestly, and i think he feels that with a full off-season working with coach webster that that golden will be a much better ball handler and decision maker. to me that is the only reason why CCM would be so decisive in saying that Golden is our PG of the future.

Well in any regard, i am VERY curioius to see what Stanton brings to the table. If he can be that all-sec caliber PG, that you had said he has the potential to be when we first got him , then we are a much better team. if we can field a lineup of stanton, golden, mcrae, stokes, maymon with stanton being a great true PG we are a MUCH better team.

 

[knowthevols]

That is true enough, but Martin continues playing McBee for some reason and it sure isn't defense. It has to be that his ball handling or shooting ability is better than the rest. It must be something that makes him feel better with McBee on the court.

Coach Martin has said on several occasions that McBee is solid handling the ball with few turnovers. His defense has picked up some also. When he is hitting we are hard to beat.

 

[calban]

they are very close,but the numbers that stick out to me in comparable minutes golden averaged almost 3x the assists and the same amount of turnovers. he also averaged twice the rebounds stanton did. as i said my biggest thing is when you look at their PG skill set; assist, turnovers, assist to turnover ratio, rebounds, ft, steals....if you multiply to get 32 minute production this is what you get:

Golden: 5.3 assists/game 2.4 turnovers/game 2.2a:to 2.6 rebounds/game 1.7 steals/game 83%ft

Stanton: 2.4 assists/game 1.8 turnovers/ game 1.3a:to 1.8 rebounds/game 1.8 steals/ game 67%ft

so really in every statistical category golden freshman year appears better than stanton. i will say one thing i do like about stanton from first glance is his size. he is 5'10 170lbs so i am going to assume he is probably very quick and can stick with the opposing teams PG much better than our current defenders do. also, when teams want to play zone, i would assume that he is going to be much quicker than golden is and will be able to penetrate the zone.

i am in no way saying that i dont want stanton to be our PG next year, i'll put it in big bold letters if need be, that if stanton can put up 4 assists 1.5 turnovers a game a couple steals and shoot a good enough percentage to keep defenses honest im all for him starting. my biggest concern is the biggest concern on golden, ball handling, the numbers dont make him look good, but then again numbers can be very deceiveing.

i am with you on CCM reasoning for golden playing the point, we cant really be worried about how they fit at the next level, this is college not nba. with that said i have heard him give other reasonings at various times, but yes i have heard that reason as well that he is a PG at the next level not a SG. i think he sees something in him honestly, and i think he feels that with a full off-season working with coach webster that that golden will be a much better ball handler and decision maker. to me that is the only reason why CCM would be so decisive in saying that Golden is our PG of the future.

Well in any regard, i am VERY curioius to see what Stanton brings to the table. If he can be that all-sec caliber PG, that you had said he has the potential to be when we first got him , then we are a much better team. if we can field a lineup of stanton, golden, mcrae, stokes, maymon with stanton being a great true PG we are a MUCH better team.

I'm not writing golden off. If he works on getting better in the off season like he did last year, he'll probably be the guy we need.
Stanton might be a good back up.
He just irks me some times when he kills drives like he did yesterday with really stupid passes directly to the other color shirts.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I'm not writing golden off. If he works on getting better in the off season like he did last year, he'll probably be the guy we need.
Stanton might be a good back up.
He just irks me some times when he kills drives like he did yesterday with really stupid passes directly to the other color shirts.

bama did a hell of a job scouting our throwbacks, i counted atleast 2 if not 3 times when golden drove and went to throw back and they intercepted.

golden has done it all year and bama is the first team i really remember being ready for it and jumping it like they did.

like ive said i think a full off season with coach webster will do golden a lot of good. he has the work ethic just look how he transformed from last year to this yea, i just dont know exactly how quick the guy can get with his build, i almost feel that 6' 210 lb frame is too much to be quick enough. i know he retooled his body and gained a lot of muscle, but i almost think he added too much muscle and its causing him to be a bit slow.

honestly i dont really know, the strength is a good thing because he is strong around the rim, but at the same time it seems to be causing him quickness. im interested on your thoughts on this caliban, is he just too big, muscle wise, to be quick enough to play the PG position. i try to think of comparable guys with his size and build and i draw a blank, maybe you can come up with something...

as i said previously, i hope stanton turns out to be a stud honestly. the fact is our 2 and 3 position is the weakest point of this team, so if we could move golden to the 2 and replace him with someone just as good at the PG position we would definitely be putting a much more talented team on the floor.

do you see himi being comparable to an aaron craft(not the fairest comparison i know) 8ppg 4.5ast 2to 2st 3rb type of guy, hes an average at best shooter too 32% from 3, and 72% from the line, but is a great defender.

 

[calban]

bama did a hell of a job scouting our throwbacks, i counted atleast 2 if not 3 times when golden drove and went to throw back and they intercepted.

golden has done it all year and bama is the first team i really remember being ready for it and jumping it like they did.

like ive said i think a full off season with coach webster will do golden a lot of good. he has the work ethic just look how he transformed from last year to this yea, i just dont know exactly how quick the guy can get with his build, i almost feel that 6' 210 lb frame is too much to be quick enough. i know he retooled his body and gained a lot of muscle, but i almost think he added too much muscle and its causing him to be a bit slow.

honestly i dont really know, the strength is a good thing because he is strong around the rim, but at the same time it seems to be causing him quickness. im interested on your thoughts on this caliban, is he just too big, muscle wise, to be quick enough to play the PG position. i try to think of comparable guys with his size and build and i draw a blank, maybe you can come up with something...

as i said previously, i hope stanton turns out to be a stud honestly. the fact is our 2 and 3 position is the weakest point of this team, so if we could move golden to the 2 and replace him with someone just as good at the PG position we would definitely be putting a much more talented team on the floor.

do you see himi being comparable to an aaron craft(not the fairest comparison i know) 8ppg 4.5ast 2to 2st 3rb type of guy, hes an average at best shooter too 32% from 3, and 72% from the line, but is a great defender.

I think that was one of my main concerns about him. (his quickness)
Early in the season he was constantly beaten off the dribble and trailing his man.
He has improved there.
Though Craft might be a step quicker, I think I'd still take Golden because of his scoring potential.
Like you say, another season with Webster, maybe he can improve his court vision and decision making skills.
One of his biggest problems are caused by his SG nature.
He usually penetrates too deep off the dribble and ends up among the trees and no where to go with the ball.
Webster could probably help him with that.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I think that was one of my main concerns about him. (his quickness)
Early in the season he was constantly beaten off the dribble and trailing his man.
He has improved there.
Though Craft might be a step quicker, I think I'd still take Golden because of his scoring potential.
Like you say, another season with Webster, maybe he can improve his court vision and decision making skills.
One of his biggest problems are caused by his SG nature.
He usually penetrates too deep off the dribble and ends up among the trees and no where to go with the ball.
Webster could probably help him with that.

thats my guess, webster was a hell of a PG himself and i truly think golden could benefit greatly from a full off season with him. in addition, hopefully the staff will push for him to get an invite to maybe steve nash PG camp in the summer and he can go there as well.

my craft question was directed for the comparison with stanton. would you compare those 2 as pretty similar when you look at the numbers?? not big scorers, big assist guys, good ball handlers, great defenders, average shooter???

 

[LibertyVolance]

Once again not admitting any fault on golden's part. It's all on the 2 and 3 guards.. Pitiful. Golden's about inconsistent as it gets. I'd love a little consistency from the PG position personally.

Golden is our best all-around guard and indeed has become a consistent player this year. Yes, he has made turnovers but he has been required to play the point and it has been an adjustment for him. I like McBee's hustle and effort, but the very fact that he gets so many minutes of playing time is less a credit to his shooting as it is of our desperation of not having more reliable 2 and 3 guards to go with Golden. McBee cannot play effective defense against most of his competition and it hurts us on defense to have him on the court so much. Everybody knows that and BleedingTNorange gets it, but you are not getting it or refusing to say you do. It's not that difficult to see.