Barry Bonds & Lance Armstrong

#26
#26
I would disagree that it is the biggest variable.

You dodged the question - does race factor into YOUR decision making?
 
#27
#27
(hatvol96 @ Jun 25 said:
If the biggest variable between two otherwise comparable situations is the race of the individuals involved, I think it is reasonable to assert that race is a critical factor in people viewing the situations differently.
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The biggest variable between the two is their personalities and attitudes towards the American public. Lance makes an effort in public to be congenial, Barry makes none. Race is not a factor, get it through your thick skull.
 
#28
#28
I think the reason Armstrong gets treated with kid gloves is because he got his name plastered to a foundation fighting cancer and raised money. People think he must be a good guy. It was clever of Armstrong, considering his reputation inside the sport is that of a suspected doper and cheater.
 
#29
#29
(volinbham @ Jun 25 said:
Does race factor into your decision making about this?

Does it for Hatvol?

If not why assume others see things racially but you do not.
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To answer your question, I don't think race factors into my decision but I do wonder what makes my decision different in very similar cases.

I don't think I have suggested that anyone sees things racially while I do not.

I don't know HatVol so I can't speak for him and I have never seen any reason to think he needs or wants me to speak for him so I won't start here
 
#30
#30
(volinasheville @ Jun 25 said:
To answer your question, I don't think race factors into my decision but I do wonder what makes my decision different in very similar cases.

I don't think I have suggested that anyone sees things racially while I do not.
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I'm really refering to the original post that suggested the reason why people see these situations differently is race-based. To make that statement is to imply that people are deciding based on race. I just find that to be a dangerous statement since such accusations are powerful.

You say it doesn't affect your decision and it doesn't affect my decision. Then just who are the unamed masses out there who do make their decision based on race?
 
#31
#31
During the OJ Simpson trial I heard a comment from a reporter that said 91% of whites felt him guilty.....86% of blacks felt him innocent. For all those polled....I think almost everyone has a little racial loyalty. That poll seems to scream it. Its just not acceptable in this day and time to be honest. To answer your question Volinbham...its almost everyone. I think almost everyone sees and understands its a far more decent thing to be tolerant, but with most other virtues it requires more effort than most are willing to give, at least privately.
 
#32
#32
I understand your point but when a statement is made (the original post) that the difference in opinion is based on race it trivializes the issue and IMHO does more to hurt race relations.

As I stated in a previous post, I've seen several instances of racial accusations that were unfounded and very damaging. These allegations had their power in the "white-man guilt" phenomenon and when I see statements such as the original post - it perpetuates the situation. That original post was a blanket accusation that suggests white people are down on Bonds primarily because he's black. I think that's complete BS. There may be some that feel that way but I would assume that no one in this thread feels that way.

 
#33
#33
My original post to start the thread doesn't mention anything about race at all. Not sure what you are talking about.
 
#34
#34
(dan4vols @ Jun 25 said:
During the OJ Simpson trial I heard a comment from a reporter that said 91% of whites felt him guilty.....86% of blacks felt him innocent. For all those polled....I think almost everyone has a little racial loyalty. That poll seems to scream it. Its just not acceptable in this day and time to be honest. To answer your question Volinbham...its almost everyone. I think almost everyone sees and understands its a far more decent thing to be tolerant, but with most other virtues it requires more effort than most are willing to give, at least privately.
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The only reason OJ Simpson was found innocent was because Mark Furman had used the 'N' word previously in his life. Anyway, I didn't then, nor do I now, count any ruling out of California's justice system as legit.
 
#35
#35
Im down on Bonds because imho he is an obnoxious, arrogant clod...that is a character issue. It may be he behaves that way because he feels he's being slighted or attacked, and its his way of defending himself. Or it may be he is narcissistic, and loves the praise and abhores critisism and those that bring it. Kind of like a clelebrity that doesnt mind a huge home, fat bank account and all the perks, but you ask for an autograph and who the hell do you think you are? There are those who stir the pot on the race card cause it sells like sex...trash talk.
 
#36
#36
well to be honest, bonds was a great player before he ever started steroids, armstrong was an unknown.
 
#37
#37
(volinasheville @ Jun 25 said:
My original post to start the thread doesn't mention anything about race at all. Not sure what you are talking about.
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I referring to the original "race reason" post.

It's as obvious as the skin on their bones.
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I thought your thread starting post was a very interesting question.
 
#38
#38
(oklavol @ Jun 25 said:
well to be honest, bonds was a great player before he ever started steroids, armstrong was an unknown.
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Assuming Armstrong used...

More on point:

Armstrong was not an unknown (in cycling). His career path is pretty typical of top-level cyclists. He was a key player even back in the days of Greg Lemond but was in the role of a team "grunt" rather than feature rider. His best years came at the time that is typical in his sport but he was a definite player throughout his career.
 
#39
#39
(dan4vols @ Jun 25 said:
Im down on Bonds because imho he is an obnoxious, arrogant clod...that is a character issue. It may be he behaves that way because he feels he's being slighted or attacked, and its his way of defending himself. Or it may be he is narcissistic, and loves the praise and abhores critisism and those that bring it. Kind of like a clelebrity that doesnt mind a huge home, fat bank account and all the perks, but you ask for an autograph and who the hell do you think you are? There are those who stir the pot on the race card cause it sells like sex...trash talk.
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Agreed 100%. There are so many reasons to see the two differently that have nothing to do with a knee-jerk assumption of race.
 
#40
#40
(therealUT @ Jun 25 said:
The biggest variable between the two is their personalities and attitudes towards the American public. Lance makes an effort in public to be congenial, Barry makes none. Race is not a factor, get it through your thick skull.
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Sure it's not. The Utopian alternate reality you live in must be a nice place.
 
#41
#41
(volinasheville @ Jun 25 said:
To answer your question, I don't think race factors into my decision but I do wonder what makes my decision different in very similar cases.

I don't think I have suggested that anyone sees things racially while I do not.

I don't know HatVol so I can't speak for him and I have never seen any reason to think he needs or wants me to speak for him so I won't start here
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VIN, you're one of a handful of people on here that I wouldn't mind having speak for me.
 
#42
#42
(volinbham @ Jun 25 said:
I would disagree that it is the biggest variable.

You dodged the question - does race factor into YOUR decision making?
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If you disagree that it's the biggest variable, that's a reasonable enough position. I didn't dodge the question at all. I stated that I believe race is the controlling variable in the perception of Bonds versus the Guy Who Rides a Bike.
 
#43
#43
(therealUT @ Jun 25 said:
The biggest variable between the two is their personalities and attitudes towards the American public. Lance makes an effort in public to be congenial, Barry makes none. Race is not a factor, get it through your thick skull.
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Does being "congenial' include dumping the wife who stood by you through cancer for a skanky former backup singer to Michael Jackson? How do you think the public would have treated Barry if he pulled that stunt?
 
#44
#44
(hatvol96 @ Jun 25 said:
If you disagree that it's the biggest variable, that's a reasonable enough position. I didn't dodge the question at all. I stated that I believe race is the controlling variable in the perception of Bonds versus the Guy Who Rides a Bike.
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So race affects your decision making in this situation (the question I asked you). It doesn't for me. As long as you are only speaking for yourself I've got no problem.
 
#45
#45
(volinbham @ Jun 25 said:
So race affects your decision making in this situation (the question I asked you). It doesn't for me. As long as you are only speaking for yourself I've got no problem.
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That's not what I said, but I'm not interested enough in talking about a guy who talks to Oprah and rides a bike to continue clarifying my position.
 
#47
#47
(volinbham @ Jun 25 said:
Another dodge -- no surprise. So you won't answer the question I asked?
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Last statement on this topic: You asked an open ended, completely unanswerable question. Does race play a factor in how I perceive the situation? Not really. I simply believe it is the most significant variable here. However, I suppose one could consider that allowing race to influence how I perceive the situation. If you want people to answer your questions, ask them in a lucid manner that allows them to be answered without the need for interpretation.
 
#48
#48
(volinasheville @ Jun 24 said:
I need help from the VolNation on this. Neither Bonds nor Armstrong have ever (that we know about) tested positive for any drugs that would DQ them from their respective sports yet both have been dogged relentlessly by rumor and innuendo concerning their use of these drugs. Why is it that public sentiment tends to defend Armstrong and yet assume Bonds is guilty?
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I can't say it's a racial thing.Pete Rose was kicked, kicked while he was down, and he's as white as they come.
 
#49
#49
(utfantilidie @ Jun 25 said:
I can't say it's a racial thing.Pete Rose was kicked, kicked while he was down, and he's as white as they come.
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Pete admitted wrongdoing. Also, I wouldn't consider the standing ovation he got when he was on the field with the All-Century Team at the World Series much of a "kicking."
 
#50
#50
(hatvol96 @ Jun 25 said:
Last statement on this topic: You asked an open ended, completely unanswerable question. Does race play a factor in how I perceive the situation? Not really. I simply believe it is the most significant variable here. However, I suppose one could consider that allowing race to influence how I perceive the situation. If you want people to answer your questions, ask them in a lucid manner that allows them to be answered without the need for interpretation.
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How much more straight forward could the question be?

I'm simply objecting to your attributing motives to others that you do not yourself share. Are we to believe that you are more racially enlightened than the vast masses out there?

Stated another way, why accuse others of have a racial interpretation when it doesn't apply to you?
 
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