Best coaching job by Holly....EVER.

[vol66]

I agree with all you said...everyone wants the bar to drop instead of raising their own bar.

Sad.

This is the UT lady Vols, people...!!!...

Rich in tradition.
Rich in history. . . But,
Poor in performance this year, by both athlete and coach.
Neither was up to UT standard.

Hopefully enough of us made the administration understand that we KNOW we should have had a better season performance and ended on a better note.

This isn't really directed at you many seem to feel similarly.

What is sad, comical might be a better word, is that people think they know more about the history, traditions and expectations than someone who has lived it every day of their adult life on this earth.

That someone who has shared in every thing great, good or bad for 30 years, up close and personally, has purposefully "lowered" the bar and that her expectations have gone from winning championships to simply getting to the E8...which by the way, a lot of good coaches didn't make this year...every year.

Take all of your disappointment and hurt and multiply it by a large number and you might get in the ball park of how disappointed Coach feels.

While I can certainly see how someone can watch her postgame and the take away is she doesn't know how to fix it I also see a frustrated, passionate coach who understands the pressure, knows fully the expectations.

The MCDAA's...having talent is great but they have to play together and sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's maddening. Ask Calipari.

But first, you have to get the talent and Holly has gotten the talent and I notice she gets little credit for it.

As for recruiting, as I've said, I don't really keep up with it but as to not be totally ignorant on the subject...looks like Vandy is the only SEC team in the top 20 in recruiting and that's likely based on the fact that they are taking 6 players in this class. A couple of SEC teams only have 1 player. It also appears at least to me that the 2017 class is more well thought of than the 2016 class as a whole. But, I don't know much about it and I certainly don't know what the coaching staff's plans are regarding the possibility of holding back so they can have a big class next year.

I think it's fair to be disappointed, even disillusioned. But when it starts to be just vitriol and blowing things out of proportion with ridiculous comments like as long as CHW is here we're "settling for mediocrity" as if you are the only person who cares about LV's BB...well..."We deserve a F4 every year". Really? Did you make cupcakes for the team? Take all the advice from VN and helped Graves with her jump shot? Please.

People who want to see her fired now have a very myopic, short term view and don't seem to think through all of the considerations choosing to think, simply, that anyone would be better.

We have a good team coming back and some of those players need to realize their potential and focus on basketball, what they can give to the game instead of what the game can give to them.

Things will be okay, sun is gonna rise.

 

[LasVegasBill23]

Well my comments were similar to Coach Jumper's, so I will take another swing here...

First, on the bar being lowered seemingly for this program, it is true I never have heard Holly say this.... it is the multitude of fans who I see and read..... who are so happy we made the Elite 8.... time for a celebratory bonfire and all that.....

Getting players to play together .... yes I would hope that in the course of an entire season, the coaching staff would be able to assimilate the team to a functional unit.... I appreciate the Calipari reference.... the difference is that the players he has are 90% freshmen.... we have upperclassmen who can't shake the turnovers, are reluctant to shoot, etc....

and the fixing it..... this is not my impression... it is a direct quote from Holly.... and it was said multiple times this past year.... "If i knew how to fix things, I would" It does not take a rocket scientist Vol fan to wonder aloud.... OK then lets look for someone who has at least some idea of how to fix things.

I cited in last post the example of holding for last shot vs chucking it up with several seconds left.... that is a basic elementary tenet of coaching.... can't believe our coaching staff let that happen... and if they did not let it happen, equally as disbelieving that staff would allow the shooter free reign to do what they wanted to do.... lack of team control....

Another example of elementary coaching gone bad is last year in our final game vs Maryland... there is a minute left, and we are down by 3 points, coming out of a timeout... we have the ball.... one of the LVs (I forget who) got the ball at top of key and drove to the basket.... could have gotten the certain layup.... and maybe an "and one"... instead .... she veered to the right passing up layup, and ball went to top of key where our player shot an air ball 3. I do not know of many coaches who would not say in timeout huddle "OK there is a bunch of time left, and if the easy 2 presents itself, take it!!"....

I just do not see any evidence that this program is making any strides forward, though believe it or not, I respect those who are on the bandwagon, and believe in the progress we are making. I just do not see it.

 

[Twinsbornoncampus]

Holly is not a bad coach she was undermined by a bunch of girls that did not want to sacrifice for the team. They were more concerned with their own performance more so than the the teams. The NCAA tourney showed how well they can play if they played together. The lost to orange was more a result of injuries than inability to coach. I must admit that Holly needs to move Carter down the sub list. The entire tourney we lost leads while she was in the game. She is not skilled enough to handle bringing the ball up under true pressure. I think the lost of Jordan hurt more than most realize. I believe we will be much better next year because Meme will have cracked the starting lineup or replaces Carter. Carter is a defensive specialist and should not be placed in an offensive role what so ever. Not a bad player, she was just put into a position that she cannot handle. I was frustrated when I sad those bad things about Holly as I was looking for a quick fix. Holly is not the problem. This kind of thing happens when you have to many chiefs and not enough indians. It is difficult sometimes to get these highly honored kids to put team first before self. I have high hopes for next year and we should be supporters not detractors. Remember when you post your negative post they are seen by recruits as well as other coaches, who use the negativity to cast a bad light on the University of Tennessee. Pull for who we are not for whom you want us to be.

 

[cwbytruckers]

Holly is not a bad coach she was undermined by a bunch of girls that did not want to sacrifice for the team. They were more concerned with their own performance more so than the the teams. The NCAA tourney showed how well they can play if they played together. The lost to orange was more a result of injuries than inability to coach. I must admit that Holly needs to move Carter down the sub list. The entire tourney we lost leads while she was in the game. She is not skilled enough to handle bringing the ball up under true pressure. I think the lost of Jordan hurt more than most realize. I believe we will be much better next year because Meme will have cracked the starting lineup or replaces Carter. Carter is a defensive specialist and should not be placed in an offensive role what so ever. Not a bad player, she was just put into a position that she cannot handle. I was frustrated when I sad those bad things about Holly as I was looking for a quick fix. Holly is not the problem. This kind of thing happens when you have to many chiefs and not enough indians. It is difficult sometimes to get these highly honored kids to put team first before self. I have high hopes for next year and we should be supporters not detractors. Remember when you post your negative post they are seen by recruits as well as other coaches, who use the negativity to cast a bad light on the University of Tennessee. Pull for who we are not for whom you want us to be.

I hope your right. My confidence has faded in our coach. Maybe for the wrong reasons.

 

[LasVegasBill23]

See, this is what I consider to be incredulous,..... what was said by twinsbornoncampus... and it is not just you TBOC.... You said that the loss to Syracuse was more due to injuries than HW's inability to coach..... Seriously? Wow....

I think back to Bob Davie's HC time at Notre Dame.... came in with consistently low results, and kept going to the soapbox of ND's high academic index.... made it difficult to find good recruits... In fact, Notre Dame has many of the national recruiting advantages, and examples can be cited of top academic institutions that do not use the same excuse and seem to find success (e,g, Stanford)

We have 7 HS All Americans on our team. Syracuse has 2. If we had 3 people injured we still should be favored to (at the very least) be competitive.... no we got beaten by Syracuse because their guard play was superior, they had more energy in wanting it.....and a couple of other key points....

But I digress.... I need to not care as much.... because whatever I read, there are always reasons we are unable to win basketball games, even though as a former coach, they make no sense to me

 

[Coach Jumper]

and this is the very sad consistent underlying current..... that the bar has been lowered..... no final fours since 2008..... coincidentally UConn has been to every single one since that same year....

now we do not have to hold ourselves to a UConn standard, but geez, it drives me crazy that people are ecstatic (yes, ECSTATIC) that we made the Elite 8 It is pitiful, IMHO

Me too LV... I call it the "good enough syndrome"... We overachieved and that's good enough.

I truly think that the BB gods opened the door as far as they could for us, No #1, 2 or 3 in our way all the way to F-4 ville.

You know though, it's not that unsolvable. We have the talent, We have the school tradition. And we have gulp, coaches,,, What we don't have is someone the girls are excited about performing for.

Geno is harder on his girls than anyone, yet they love him openly for being that way. It is a very tight line that separates disciplinarian and dictator... He walks it well.

 

[teacherdean]

and this is the very sad consistent underlying current..... that the bar has been lowered..... no final fours since 2008..... coincidentally UConn has been to every single one since that same year....

now we do not have to hold ourselves to a UConn standard, but geez, it drives me crazy that people are ecstatic (yes, ECSTATIC) that we made the Elite 8 It is pitiful, IMHO

What is even worse is some fans castigate those of us that have high expectations. As a fan base you need to expect the best and not be happy with mediocrity and lowering the bar. A good fan base wants its team to be the best, this is not unusual. Some fans think it is okay to be a mediocre women's team but expect the best from the men's team. To me that is so unfair to the woman's game and plays right into the hands of those who view the women's game as an inferior product.

 

[vol66]

Well my comments were similar to Coach Jumper's, so I will take another swing here...

First, on the bar being lowered seemingly for this program, it is true I never have heard Holly say this.... it is the multitude of fans who I see and read..... who are so happy we made the Elite 8.... time for a celebratory bonfire and all that.....

Getting players to play together .... yes I would hope that in the course of an entire season, the coaching staff would be able to assimilate the team to a functional unit.... I appreciate the Calipari reference.... the difference is that the players he has are 90% freshmen.... we have upperclassmen who can't shake the turnovers, are reluctant to shoot, etc....

and the fixing it..... this is not my impression... it is a direct quote from Holly.... and it was said multiple times this past year.... "If i knew how to fix things, I would" It does not take a rocket scientist Vol fan to wonder aloud.... OK then lets look for someone who has at least some idea of how to fix things.

I cited in last post the example of holding for last shot vs chucking it up with several seconds left.... that is a basic elementary tenet of coaching.... can't believe our coaching staff let that happen... and if they did not let it happen, equally as disbelieving that staff would allow the shooter free reign to do what they wanted to do.... lack of team control....

Another example of elementary coaching gone bad is last year in our final game vs Maryland... there is a minute left, and we are down by 3 points, coming out of a timeout... we have the ball.... one of the LVs (I forget who) got the ball at top of key and drove to the basket.... could have gotten the certain layup.... and maybe an "and one"... instead .... she veered to the right passing up layup, and ball went to top of key where our player shot an air ball 3. I do not know of many coaches who would not say in timeout huddle "OK there is a bunch of time left, and if the easy 2 presents itself, take it!!"....

I just do not see any evidence that this program is making any strides forward, though believe it or not, I respect those who are on the bandwagon, and believe in the progress we are making. I just do not see it.

Firstly, thank you for the respectful reply.

On your first point. No coach on the planet would ever say, heck we're just competing for 2nd place...as for the fans that are happy we made the E8, and I am one my experience was this.

I didn't think we deserved to get into the NCAA tourney. Then we got a 7 seed and I realized we're on the road the whole time. I thought, based on the way they'd played...maybe we could get past Green Bay. That was it.

Then they played the best basketball of the season and looked like a UT team should look when they trounced OSU. Of course that game, we suffered some injuries and that was the end of the road for what I'd call, a fragile team.

SO yeah, for THIS team to make the E8, I'm happy. I'm not happy because that's all I wanted and when Graves was crying on the bench...this was my thought...She didn't get to experience a final four and she's a senior so she won't experience it. I'm happy because given their body of work I certainly didn't think they could get there.

On the next point, the Calipari point...Russell and Diamond sat out last year and Tea Cooper was a freshmen so you essentially have "new" players to mesh with Graves and they lack the game experience they should have and for whatever reason it never got in sync and if you want to blame the coach, fine by me but Graves and Carter needed to do a better job leading, holding them and Nared accountable and it did not happen quickly enough.

A coach can push every button, talk, etc...but when the young or inexperienced think it's their time the leadership on the team needs to step up and get things straight. I don't know, maybe that doesn't come naturally to Graves, and I'm certainly not criticizing her, she played her ass off during her career.

On the fixing it...other than to say I've heard a million coaches say we have to get this fixed...I don't recall any of them saying how they will go about it, do you? I guess I don't find that all that troubling. But on that topic, I think they were literally trying to think of any possible way to communicate to the players, film, speakers, dinners...and in the post games she's not all frustrated because they lost, she's frustrated because the players don't do what they are coached to do, or follow the scouting report...

Look CHW, a former point guard, does not coach them to turn the ball over 20 times a game. It's the players. Holly never said, "hey you have to protect the ball, take care of the ball, we can't give away possessions, we don't shoot well enough to do that." Yeah right.

As for all of your coaching points, I'll give you them, it's not my wheelhouse.

Here is another point I'd like to make and I haven't really seen it discussed so...

Obviously, the coach that followed Coach Summitt was going to have some big shoes to fill. The expectations are extremely high. We all knew that.

What I did not expect was that the war over the LV's name, logo etc... would rage on like this over the course of her tenure. I believe behind the scenes Warlick has had to make some very agonizing decisions. She's been placed in the middle of a mess not of her making and she's towed the company line.

I firmly believe that had they picked someone outside of the UT family and not Warlick or a former player who is now a coach, The Lady Vols would be gone in all sports. So she's been dealing with all of that too and I'm not so sure she isn't the only one who could've successfully managed it.

Pat Summit, since the 81-82 season, made the F4 or better 18 out of 31 years, or 58% of the time. This "every year we make a F4" stuff was wasn't true then and it's not gonna be true now. It's a great goal and I'm quite sure it is.

 

[xanamanax]

I don't get all the talk about the bar being lowered. At the beginning of the season I (and I think most fans) were expecting to see us in the FF. Based on our E8 last year and #1 recruit Mercedes and #3 recruit Diamond joining the team, I thought we would be even better. I knew we lost some really good players but I thought the ones being added were going to more than make up for it. Well, it didn't turn out that way and it took the whole regular season for this new group to start playing like a real team. But even though we were playing better, after the train wreck of the season I didn't expect us to make it back to the E8. So to me, getting to the E8 is a huge accomplishment and I'm very happy about it. That doesn't mean I've lowered the overall bar of what I expect for the Lady Vols. It means I recognized what happened this season and had to adjust my end of season expectations accordingly for this season only. This core returning group has shown that they can play very well. They need to work on several things but next year I will again be expecting a FF from Holly and this team.

 

[Kwilliams]

What part of "get the ball inside" does HW not understand? We didn't even attempt to get the ball inside against Syracuse. That's how we won the 2 previous games. I couldn't finish watching -pitiful!!!! And I've been watching them since the days of Trish Roberts.

 

[vol66]

What part of "get the ball inside" does HW not understand? We didn't even attempt to get the ball inside against Syracuse. That's how we won the 2 previous games. I couldn't finish watching -pitiful!!!! And I've been watching them since the days of Trish Roberts.

What did Syracuse do differently defensively than the previous two teams did in the games you mentioned?

 

[xanamanax]

What part of "get the ball inside" does HW not understand? We didn't even attempt to get the ball inside against Syracuse. That's how we won the 2 previous games. I couldn't finish watching -pitiful!!!! And I've been watching them since the days of Trish Roberts.

Do you really think Holly told them not to pass it inside?

 

[LasVegasBill23]

Good to hear your thoughts.....

The talk of Elite 8 and bar being lowered is talk I can take credit for.... it is just my take on what I see.... to be sure though.... none of this talk associated with Holly.... I am sure she is not happy she only got to E8....

Knowing our NCAA opponents would be G Bay, AZ State, Ohio St, and the Cuse, I would have expected to reach the Final 4.... but as of right now, I have make a pact with myself not to criticize, just be a fan.... and not to get so passionate and worked up..... now lets see if I can stick to that HAH!! But i will try....

Your mention of Cooper Russell and DD interesting.... Cooper is talented but in obvious need of coaching.... if only to achieve consistency.... you need to know what you bring to the court especially at the guard position..... (as an aside, it will be interesting to see the coaching of Dangerfield next year at UConn and see how she progresses vs Te'a progress)
DD did sit out last year, yes, but (again, perhaps I am too critical) she did practice with the team all year in 14-15.... so a lot of the chemistry issue, real or perceived, should have been negated.... and though I used to coach, I must admit I do not know the statistics on your very best player leading the team in turnovers by a pretty wide margin.... if she is scoring 20 points a game, but turning the ball over 6 or 7 times a game, she may not be helping us.... and Mercedes, poor thing, she had a miserable time with her feet last year.... but all year this year, she has said she is 100%.... she has played soft in the post where we need aggression, and the mechanics need to be improved.... precision on moves to the basket..... and protecting the basketball.... would be good if her hands were stronger, so she would not be vulnerable to the strip.....

You are right on Graves..... every time I saw her ... she was always the one putting out the most effort.... kudos to her..

Yes on the post game comments.... it really scares me that Holly says "If I knew what the team was doing wrong , I would fix it" That is just a head scratcher of a comment, and it does not instill a lot of confidence ..... to know that your leader does not know what to do.... and I so wish she would be more disciplined on the kids..... like when she told them to play defense in the defensive stance, but as coach said "they didn't want to" .... wow.... on my team those who chose not to adopt defensive stance would be sitting on the bench, even if it meant we lost a game by 60.....

I want to put forth an opinion which i know may be in the minority, but 20 turnovers a game is ultimately on the coaching staff and not the players.... sometimes the players get out of control or boxed in due to good defense.... but if the coaches write the blueprint for what kind of offense they want to run, and put the mechanics behind it, and practice it, those turnovers will come way down and we win a larger percentage of games.....

Having said all this.... good luck to the program in the off season.... and good luck scoring a post recruit and maybe a couple of others.... don't know what is out there but hope they find their way to Knoxville.....

 

[vol66]

Good to hear your thoughts.....

The talk of Elite 8 and bar being lowered is talk I can take credit for.... it is just my take on what I see.... to be sure though.... none of this talk associated with Holly.... I am sure she is not happy she only got to E8....

Knowing our NCAA opponents would be G Bay, AZ State, Ohio St, and the Cuse, I would have expected to reach the Final 4.... but as of right now, I have make a pact with myself not to criticize, just be a fan.... and not to get so passionate and worked up..... now lets see if I can stick to that HAH!! But i will try....

Your mention of Cooper Russell and DD interesting.... Cooper is talented but in obvious need of coaching.... if only to achieve consistency.... you need to know what you bring to the court especially at the guard position..... (as an aside, it will be interesting to see the coaching of Dangerfield next year at UConn and see how she progresses vs Te'a progress)
DD did sit out last year, yes, but (again, perhaps I am too critical) she did practice with the team all year in 14-15.... so a lot of the chemistry issue, real or perceived, should have been negated.... and though I used to coach, I must admit I do not know the statistics on your very best player leading the team in turnovers by a pretty wide margin.... if she is scoring 20 points a game, but turning the ball over 6 or 7 times a game, she may not be helping us.... and Mercedes, poor thing, she had a miserable time with her feet last year.... but all year this year, she has said she is 100%.... she has played soft in the post where we need aggression, and the mechanics need to be improved.... precision on moves to the basket..... and protecting the basketball.... would be good if her hands were stronger, so she would not be vulnerable to the strip.....

You are right on Graves..... every time I saw her ... she was always the one putting out the most effort.... kudos to her..

Yes on the post game comments.... it really scares me that Holly says "If I knew what the team was doing wrong , I would fix it" That is just a head scratcher of a comment, and it does not instill a lot of confidence ..... to know that your leader does not know what to do.... and I so wish she would be more disciplined on the kids..... like when she told them to play defense in the defensive stance, but as coach said "they didn't want to" .... wow.... on my team those who chose not to adopt defensive stance would be sitting on the bench, even if it meant we lost a game by 60.....

I want to put forth an opinion which i know may be in the minority, but 20 turnovers a game is ultimately on the coaching staff and not the players.... sometimes the players get out of control or boxed in due to good defense.... but if the coaches write the blueprint for what kind of offense they want to run, and put the mechanics behind it, and practice it, those turnovers will come way down and we win a larger percentage of games.....

Having said all this.... good luck to the program in the off season.... and good luck scoring a post recruit and maybe a couple of others.... don't know what is out there but hope they find their way to Knoxville.....

I appreciate your thoughts and would only argue the point about benching players. She benched DD. She benched Dunbar and lots of folks here are mystified by it, she benched quite a few...but it all boils down to this, as you well know.

There is no difference between a player who won't and a player who can't.

If you bench the one who can do the job but won't in favor of one who can't do the the job but will try and you're getting paid to win games, it's a tough decision. In rec league ball, teach them a lesson, but when you are paid to win games you have to balance things...if that makes sense.

As for the turnovers I don't see many people posting DD's turnover #'s from her time at UNC...it exists. Maybe they chalk it up to it being her freshman year there...but as you say DD, though she missed time, has practiced with the team. She should be better in that area.

We'll have to agree to disagree on whose fault the TO's are, but I will say, the head coach is ultimately responsible for all things.

 

[LasVegasBill23]

Yes good points.... and about benching players.... very tough call of course.... I remember when I had a sales team up in Canada.... and they refused to do what was required at minimum level, I got rid of 2/3 of them.... it was a move which didn't work too well in the long run.... sometimes you think something is right, but in practicality, it falls flat

 

[vol66]

Yes good points.... and about benching players.... very tough call of course.... I remember when I had a sales team up in Canada.... and they refused to do what was required at minimum level, I got rid of 2/3 of them.... it was a move which didn't work too well in the long run.... sometimes you think something is right, but in practicality, it falls flat

Appreciate the back and forth, have a good night.


GBO!!!

 

[tactical]

The original thread title is correct, that's about as good as Polly is able to coach a team of All-American's. Of course this year was not any better than the last three and is the highest level Polly is able to get a team. Get use to it, that's it as looooooooong as she's here and maybe not that high next year. :realmad:

 

[TnScooby]

Wow..The novels in this thread are bizarre..LV Book Club in session..Who Knew??