Bible Topic Thread (merged)
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Paul lived a very immoral life before being knocked unconcious and seeing visions of Jesus. However, Paul declares his celibacy to the Corinthians (7:1-17).
Jesus tells the criminal on the cross that he will be with him in paradise because the criminal fully believed that Jesus was the Lord, therefore, was baptized while on the cross, and therefore entered into his afterlife free of sin. He is also one of the first Christian Saints.
The words petros and petra were used interchangeably during that period. As you know, languages evolve. Not every word used in the English lexicon these days matches the strict definition.
As to your "keys" assumption, that "ordinary interpretation" didn't appear until as "ordinary" until Calvin (1600 years later.)
JZVOL
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Thanks for your response UT.
I guess we will always argue about who THE ROCK of the church is. I believe the Bible says it is Jesus and you say Peter.
So you are basing priest's abilitities to forgive sins based on this one verse that is a very debatable verse. I would think you would want more than one reference in order to come to the assupmtion that priests can forgive sins.
Is it recorded anywhere else in the Bible that Peter is THE ROCK?
CHRIST alone is the head and cornerstone of the Church, not a man. Also all the Apostles were equal and given the same gifts so why would Peter ALONE be THE ROCK of the church?
Psalm 62:1-2 For God alone my soul waits in silence, from Him comes my salvation. HE is my ROCK and my salvation, my fortress; I shall not be greatly taken.
This is basically what was said to Peter by Jesus when He said you can be taken by any man but the FAITH you have expressed in MY DIETY is a ROCK immovable as the mountains. On IT I will build my Church.
2 Sam. 22:3
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge,
my shield and the horn [a] of my salvation.
He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior—
from violent men you save me.
Psalm 62:1-2
The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge.
He is my shield and the horn [a] of my salvation, my stronghold.
As well versed as Christ was in scripture do you think He would have called Peter THE ROCK after GOD was THE ROCK in the Old Testament?
That would be putting Peter as an equal with God and ahead of the other Apostles, which HE WAS NOT.
I guess we will always argue about who THE ROCK of the church is. I believe the Bible says it is Jesus and you say Peter.
So you are basing priest's abilitities to forgive sins based on this one verse that is a very debatable verse. I would think you would want more than one reference in order to come to the assupmtion that priests can forgive sins.
Is it recorded anywhere else in the Bible that Peter is THE ROCK?
CHRIST alone is the head and cornerstone of the Church, not a man. Also all the Apostles were equal and given the same gifts so why would Peter ALONE be THE ROCK of the church?
Psalm 62:1-2 For God alone my soul waits in silence, from Him comes my salvation. HE is my ROCK and my salvation, my fortress; I shall not be greatly taken.
This is basically what was said to Peter by Jesus when He said you can be taken by any man but the FAITH you have expressed in MY DIETY is a ROCK immovable as the mountains. On IT I will build my Church.
2 Sam. 22:3
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge,
my shield and the horn [a] of my salvation.
He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior—
from violent men you save me.
Psalm 62:1-2
The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge.
He is my shield and the horn [a] of my salvation, my stronghold.
As well versed as Christ was in scripture do you think He would have called Peter THE ROCK after GOD was THE ROCK in the Old Testament?
That would be putting Peter as an equal with God and ahead of the other Apostles, which HE WAS NOT.
Had Jesus wanted to say that Peter's FAITH was the rock, then he would have said it. He didn't. He told Peter that he was the rock that the Church would be built upon. You can read what David says in his Psalms, or what Samuel had to say, however, I am going to take the word of the Lord as he stated it. I am going to do the same exact thing with his word, as he stated it, about the ability to forgive sins.
You might say that I am putting Peter on par with God (which I am not), however, you are placing David and Samuels words above Christ's.
Also, there is a difference between telling someone they are the rock upon which they will build their church and saying they are my rock and my savior. I don't believe I need to go into much detail about that difference, as it should be quite clear.
You might say that I am putting Peter on par with God (which I am not), however, you are placing David and Samuels words above Christ's.
Also, there is a difference between telling someone they are the rock upon which they will build their church and saying they are my rock and my savior. I don't believe I need to go into much detail about that difference, as it should be quite clear.
JZVOL
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Colossians 1:15-20 "... Christ IS THE HEAD of the BODY, THE CHURCH... For in Christ the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. and THROUGH Christ all things are reconciled to God, WHETHER in EARTH or in HEAVEN, making peace by the BLOOD of CHRIST'S CROSS."
Again no mention of Peter. You say you aren't putting Peter on par with Jesus but you are putting him ahead of the OTHER Apostles which he was NOT, that is not biblical. NO place in the Bible does it say Peter is better or ahead of the other Disciples.
Again no mention of Peter. You say you aren't putting Peter on par with Jesus but you are putting him ahead of the OTHER Apostles which he was NOT, that is not biblical. NO place in the Bible does it say Peter is better or ahead of the other Disciples.
It does not have to say it more than once (even though in Galations, Paul refers to Peter as the head of the Christians among the Jews, while Paul is the head among the Gentiles.)
Also, the Trinity is worshipped in the Church, alone and above all. Peter is not worshipped. Neither is Mary, nor the Saints, Popes, Bishops, Priests, etc.
CSpindizzy
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CSpindizzy
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You're right. Petros was deemed the Greek name we get Peter from and petra, petras, and all other derivatives mean something completely different. Look at all other uses of Petros in the original Greek. They all refer to Peter. Petras on the other hand refer to bedrock, rock, foundation, etc. No matter how hard you try to convince yourself your thought is correct it is not. You've taken something, actually a few things, out of context and claimed it the truth.
JZVOL
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I will accept that but why then are you saying Peter's side is the only one where priests can forgive and aren't living in sin if ALL the Apostles are EQUAL?
Wouldn't Paul's "side" be living in the sin you claim my pastors are living in?
If Jews aren't Catholics and Catholics aren't Jews how does Peter as head of the Christians among the Jews become the first pope?
I also find it quite odd that you only reference verses 15-20. You completely ignore Paul's affirmation of his role as a minister and the power that Christ has bestowed upon him. He even speaks of the 'holy ones' whom Christ has given the power to admonish and to teach.
I will again point out to you that you are putting the words of Paul, David, Samuel, etc. above the quoted words of Jesus.
JZVOL
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Would you please tell me what verse that is so I can look it up?
No I AM NOT. I was pointing out by using those verses that Christ new scripture better that anyone, obviously. If God is referred to as the rock a rock or my rock WHY would HE call Peter THE ROCK?
Also you have yet to mention the fact that Peter was not greater than the other Apostles. They were all equal. If Peter had the power to forgive sins they all did for he was not the "best" or "holiest" disciple.
CSpindizzy
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Well then be dilligent in coming down here to a very large Catholic church and telling them they are wrong. As to your example, we Protestants do not pray to the dead either THROUGH or TO them for our needs, sins, etc. We pray directly to God. We ask others to pray for us, living I might add. What do the dead do for you? Why pray to those dead when again you pray to Christ? Christ's example of how to pray was to "our Father" not Moses, Elijah, Abraham, etc. So again YOU are wrong.
Did I say A rock? Try sticking to words actually spoken rather than assumptions. He said you are PETER (PETROS) and upon THIS rock (petras) I will build my Church. He used a different word and spelling of it. Had He referred specifically to Peter he would have used the same word. Petros was a proper noun as a name. "This rock" was a feminine noun completely different in spelling and meaning. The original Greek cannot get much clearer.
Again I refer you to the two examples of Christ speaking on the man building his house upon the rock and the other upon the sand. It is the SAME context as what Christ referred to Peter. The same spelling of the same word was used. Read Matthew 7:24. In the SAME CONTEXT he says if ANYONE, not Peter, not just apostles, not one specific person but ANYONE.
Again, repeating myself, when asked hierarchy questions NEVER did Christ give any disciple preference over control of the church. Read Revelation and the mention of the churches there. This is around 90 AD. Where in mentioning the churches at the time was Rome mentioned? Where did Christ say the head of the church was Rome and where did he say one person would control it? Several times it is mentioned that CHRIST is the head of the church and following there is no mention of an earthly head. We are ALL equal in Christ and ALL the bride of Christ.
CSpindizzy
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If you are going to tell me that you or anyone in your congregation has never asked for prayers, then I am going to call you a liar.
Again, you are wrong about the "very large Catholic church." WE DO NOT PRAY TO MARY. WE ASK HER FOR HER PRAYERS, JUST AS YOU ASK OTHERS IN YOUR CONGREGATION TO PRAY FOR YOU OR YOUR DYING AUNT SALLY!
Why do we ask Mary and the Saints? Well, if any person is in heaven, then we know that Mary is. So, we ask her for prayers, since she is in the presence of God (heaven.) Also, being a saint, simply means that one is in heaven. So, we ask our Saints (persons whom, when you look at their life, you can very much believe they made it to heaven) to prayer for us, also, since they are in the presence of God. Then, we ask our congregations for prayers. And, yes, we also pray to God, himself, through this whole process (hence the Lord's Prayer that we pray throughout the Rosary.) So, once again, you are 100% wrong in your assumption about Catholics and Mary.
CSpindizzy
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Ephesians 1:7
In HIM we have redemption through His blood the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of His grace.
Eph 2:4-6
But God being rich in mercy because of His great love with which He loved us. even when we were dead in our transgressions made us alive together. with Christ by grace you have been saved and raised us up with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
In HIM we have redemption through His blood the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of His grace.
Eph 2:4-6
But God being rich in mercy because of His great love with which He loved us. even when we were dead in our transgressions made us alive together. with Christ by grace you have been saved and raised us up with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
JZVOL
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1 Tim 3:1-13 -- check these verses out for bishops and deacons-- (KJV) Verse 1 " This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
Verse 2. " A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant.............................
One can only if you believe the word of GOD see that it is OK for a bishop "pastor" to have a wife --and BTW when a woman can be the husband of one wife then she will be able to pastor ---
And yes I have concluded that the only correct version of GOD'S word is the KJV many reasons GOD said in PSALM 12: 7 -- That he would preserve his word-- yes it is a translation but a translation into english of GOD'S word I would not want a GOD that could not preserve his word, a word that I need and you need if you are saved and still living in this world.. Every other version has a copyright on the words you must gain permission to use them if you are publishing any thing of length and qoute that version. we are saved through what CHRIST did and his BLOOD get a NIV and turn to Colossians 1 :14 WHAT is missing -- " (KJV) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:" the NIV says the same thing EXCEPT "through his BLOOD" is taken out--- folks say that the NIV is so much clearer and easier to read and understand I am not a English major but but I know which one gives me a clearer meaning and understanding of how I have redemption and forgiveness of my sin-- It's through HIS blood Christ's blood ---
And Peter was not the first POPE and if he was which he was NOT-- may want to study some of his life check his marital status
CSpindizzy
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Amazing. I even said we ask others to pray for us and you STILL missed it. Please, go back and read what is said before typing. You are arguing points no others are even saying. Call me whatever you want. It really doesn't bother me.
There is a difference between praying for me and my dying Aunt Sally versus praying through some dead person in Heaven. Having a living person petition God here on earth is much different than praying through Mary. Again, come down to Corpus Christi Catholic Church in Stone Mtn, GA and correct the people. I'm sure they would appreciate you setting them straight.
Tell me where it is Biblical that you can pray to Mary and she will petition God? Where is it Biblical that ANY of the saints can be petitioned for prayer? Speaking to the dead sounds much on the end of what God condemned us to do.
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