Bill Self pulls annual choke job

#26
#26
RDU VOL#14 said:
Boheim has been to 3 national title games and won one of them. He's won the second most games in history. He's pretty freaking good.
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He's also missed the tournament more times than you'd think (7), gotten the program put on probation twice/been ineligible, and had some wins vacated/been suspended. All of those are marks on his resume, IMO.

You are right in that he has been around a long time and won a ton of games, but that is precisely why you would think he'd have more than one title. And what if he didn't have Carmelo Anthony; would he have won any titles at all?
 
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#27
#27
05_never_again said:
He's also missed the tournament more times than you'd think (7), gotten the program put on probation twice/been ineligible, and had some wins vacated/been suspended. All of those are marks on his resume, IMO.

You are right in that he has been around a long time and won a ton of games, but that is precisely why you would think he'd have more than one title. And what if he didn't have Carmelo Anthony; would he have won any titles at all?
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I see what you're saying, but I still think he's in the same conversation as Pitino or Roy.
 
#28
#28
RDU VOL#14 said:
Dean Smith, one of the greatest coaches ever coached at UNC for 36 years and won 2 NCAA titles. Bobby Bowden coached at FSU for 33 years and won 2 titles. It's not easy to win NCAA titles unless it's the current state of women's basketball. Honestly, Saban should probably have 2 more than he does and Coach K should have 3 or 4more '86, '94 '99 and '04, hell Ole Huckleberry in Chapel Hill should probably have 2 or 3 more. If you want to talk about choke jobs at Kansas you could definitely look at Roy Williams during his time there. They were always outstanding and loaded with talent and would inexplicably lose to a team in the tournament that they had no business losing to.
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My response will, obviously, come across as biased, but Dean Smith coached nearly half his career when only one (the conference champion) or two teams from each conference were selected for the tournament. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison to coaches whose careers started after 1980.

His career also spanned the entire UCLA dynasty...is anyone knocking Dawn Staley as a "choker" because she's not winning championships during UCONN's current run.
 
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#31
#31
Chuckie said:
My response will, obviously, come across as biased, but Dean Smith coached nearly half his career when only one (the conference champion) or two teams from each conference were selected for the tournament. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison to coaches whose careers started after 1980.

His career also spanned the entire UCLA dynasty...is anyone knocking Dawn Staley as a "choker" because she's not winning championships during UCONN's current run.
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I hope you don't think I was calling Dean a choker, I was just pointing out how difficult it is to win titles. I agree with what you are saying about the 80's, but I will say that Dean's Carolina teams from '81 until '97 were probably his best. Remarkably, that '93 title team really wasn't that great talent wise. Perfect combo of chemistry and great coaching.
 
#32
#32
RDU VOL#14 said:
Boheim has been to 3 national title games and won one of them. He's won the second most games in history. He's pretty freaking good.
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He's been to 4 Final Fours and won one title, with an NBA Hall of Famer, in like 40 years.

He's pretty good, but his reputation far outpaces his accomplishments.
 
#34
#34
RDU VOL#14 said:
I would pick Pitino and Roy over Boheim, but not many others.
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Right; I wouldn't put many people ahead of him either, but I would put a bunch of coaches who have less career wins than him ahead of him. Knight, Smith, Calhoun, Rupp, Williams, Pitino, Calipari, Wooden, Izzo, Donovan, Self. I don't think he is as good of a coach as any of those guys.

His reputation is built on the fact that he has been at Syracuse forever, and obviously there is something to be said for that (i.e., you don't stay around if you suck). However, he has a very similar number of wins to Coach K, but Coach K has 5 titles.
 
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#36
#36
Fact: If Bill Self were the coach in Knoxville for the past decade with the same record he has at Kansas, our idiot fan base would be begging for him to be fired.
 
#37
#37
The Ron Mexico said:
Fact: If Bill Self were the coach in Knoxville for the past decade with the same record he has at Kansas, our idiot fan base would be begging for him to be fired.
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Ha - maybe if Tennessee was a basketball school.

Bruce Pearl's record pales in comparison to Self's and a large amount of the fanbase didn't want him fired, brought back with the show cause, or brought back today. What Bruce Pearl achieved is more than enough at Tennessee.
 
#38
#38
05_never_again said:
Right; I wouldn't put many people ahead of him either, but I would put a bunch of coaches who have less career wins than him ahead of him. Knight, Smith, Calhoun, Rupp, Williams, Pitino, Calipari, Wooden, Izzo, Donovan, Self. I don't think he is as good of a coach as any of those guys.

His reputation is built on the fact that he has been at Syracuse forever, and obviously there is something to be said for that (i.e., you don't stay around if you suck). However, he has a very similar number of wins to Coach K, but Coach K has 5 titles.
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I meant currently, but yeah I agree with your list.
 
#39
#39
the national champion in bball has to go, at least, 6-0. against the best teams in the country. it's hard.

i look at like this, sweet 16 is like going to a bowl game. elite 8, NYD bowl. final 4-- playoff/former BCS bowls, and then a national title game. i think if you make it to the Elite 8, you've had a really good season. you make the final 4, for some it can be historic.

Self is to college basket ball what Stoops is to college football. the expectations at KU are more than getting to the elite 8, so i get it. i just think it's harder to do in bball than it is in football.
 
#40
#40
jakez4ut said:
Self is to college basket ball what Stoops is to college football. the expectations at KU are more than getting to the elite 8, so i get it. i just think it's harder to do in bball than it is in football.
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What is really frustrating to Kansas fans though is that this has happened to Self a bunch as a #1 seed and after regular seasons where they have just mowed people down.

It's a tough spot because he should probably have more than one national title there, but to complain about it just kind of looks petulant and ridiculous.

Kind of interesting to see expectations from a different perspective. I just said that the Kansas fans look petulant and ridiculous, but if Tennessee had a coach (Butch or someone else) who seemed to consistently "max out" over an extended period of time at making NYD bowls, we'd all be very frustrated. Think about it; that'd mean we'd have very solid teams with lots of NFL draft picks but there would always be a game or two a year we'd lose that would cost us, and the loss(es) would probably always be in a big game against Florida, Alabama, or Georgia or in the SECCG.
 
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#41
#41
05_never_again said:
What is really frustrating to Kansas fans though is that this has happened to Self a bunch as a #1 seed and after regular seasons where they have just mowed people down.

It's a tough spot because he should probably have more than one national title there, but to complain about it just kind of looks petulant and ridiculous.

Kind of interesting to see expectations from a different perspective. I just said that the Kansas fans look petulant and ridiculous, but if Tennessee had a coach (Butch or someone else) who seemed to consistently "max out" over an extended period of time at making NYD bowls, we'd all be very frustrated. Think about it; that'd mean we'd have very solid teams with lots of NFL draft picks but there would always be a game or two a year we'd lose that would cost us, and the loss(es) would probably always be in a big game against Florida, Alabama, or Georgia or in the SECCG.
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no, i agree, which is why i said, that at KU you are expected to make it past the Elite 8....

it's easy to say why complain, but we did it with Fulmer. we did the 'what might have been' thing with him for 5-6 years in the 90's and again in the early 2000's. whether it be losing annually to FL and finishing 2nd in the conf and playing N'western or VT or OSU in a NYD bowl, finishing in the top 10 most ever year, or losing to Auburn or LSU in SEC title games later on.

you get to a point where you take things for granted (like we did here), and just asssume you're going to win 10 games a year, and you just need that 1 thing to get over the hump.

and then you find out maybe it wasn't so bad?:eek:lol:

coaches like Self, Stoops, Fulmer, Richt, Miles etc...they become victims of their own success. sucks, but it's reality. Butch is going thru it now.
 
#42
#42
RDU VOL#14 said:
I hope you don't think I was calling Dean a choker, I was just pointing out how difficult it is to win titles. I agree with what you are saying about the 80's, but I will say that Dean's Carolina teams from '81 until '97 were probably his best. Remarkably, that '93 title team really wasn't that great talent wise. Perfect combo of chemistry and great coaching.
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No, I knew that wasn't the point of your post, and agree with your points above. The '94 team was one of the most disappointing of my life (we only lost George Lynch and added Stackhouse and Wallace...and got knocked out by BC in the second round).
 
#43
#43
Chuckie said:
No, I knew that wasn't the point of your post, and agree with your points above. The '94 team was one of the most disappointing of my life (we only lost George Lynch and added Stackhouse and Wallace...and got knocked out by BC in the second round).
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Yeah pretty much the 2017 Duke Blue Devils are similar to the '94 Heels. Never thought about it like that until now.
 
#45
#45
jakez4ut said:
no, i agree, which is why i said, that at KU you are expected to make it past the Elite 8....

it's easy to say why complain, but we did it with Fulmer. we did the 'what might have been' thing with him for 5-6 years in the 90's and again in the early 2000's. whether it be losing annually to FL and finishing 2nd in the conf and playing N'western or VT or OSU in a NYD bowl, finishing in the top 10 most ever year, or losing to Auburn or LSU in SEC title games later on.

you get to a point where you take things for granted (like we did here), and just asssume you're going to win 10 games a year, and you just need that 1 thing to get over the hump.

and then you find out maybe it wasn't so bad?:eek:lol:

coaches like Self, Stoops, Fulmer, Richt, Miles etc...they become victims of their own success. sucks, but it's reality. Butch is going thru it now.
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We did take things for granted with Fulmer - top 15 finishes and NYD bowl wins look pretty good right now, but at least we did fire him after a couple of losing seasons (i.e., missing the tournament) and after recruiting had taken an obvious dip. I still to this day think he should have been fired.

I think the takeaway is that at high expectations programs, no matter the sport, you have to at least get to the title game once every several years to keep the dogs off of you.
 
#46
#46
The Ron Mexico said:
Fact: If Bill Self were the coach in Knoxville for the past decade with the same record he has at Kansas, our idiot fan base would be begging for him to be fired.
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nah. bball expectations are different. i'm sure there would be some. but i still say it....for the time that Bruce Pearl was here, it was the most fun watching TN basketball because of relevance.

pre and post pearl, we're basically irrelevant. i'd take what Bill Self has to offer in heartbeat.
 
#47
#47
NashVol11 said:
Don't know much about the '94 Heels, but they sound like 2011 Duke too
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Well if Kyrie had been healthy the entire season I really think Duke would've won it. If Giles had been what many thought he could be this year I would think Duke would still be in it. The 2011 loss to Arizona and the loss to South Carolina were almost identical.
 
#48
#48
jakez4ut said:
coaches like Self, Stoops, Fulmer, Richt, Miles etc...they become victims of their own success. sucks, but it's reality. Butch is going thru it now.
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I get the expectations are insane at KU, but his results are far better than Fulmer, Richt, Miles, etc. he literally wins his conference every year. He has seven Elite Eight appearances, two Final Fours and a Natty. There's only three other schools right now where that could even be considered only slightly above average (Carolina, UK, and Duke). Even then, you can't fire the guy.
 
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#49
#49
RDU VOL#14 said:
I would pick Pitino and Roy over Boheim, but not many others.
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I think Boeheim is about same as Roy Williams. Not. Carolina is purely a better basketball school than Syracuse. So better players will join the likes of Boeheim or Williams than if at Syracuse.
 
#50
#50
jakez4ut said:
nah. bball expectations are different. i'm sure there would be some. but i still say it....for the time that Bruce Pearl was here, it was the most fun watching TN basketball because of relevance.

pre and post pearl, we're basically irrelevant. i'd take what Bill Self has to offer in heartbeat.
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Exactly. If he were let go at Kansas. He would be hired at another major school very quickly for about 4-5 million dollars a year. That's how well thought of Coach Self is.
 
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