Bowl Game question… (Hyatt sitting out?)

[McDad]

Not your call to make. Not mine to make.

Things other than money have value. It isn't just that life is inherently risky... but that some risks are deemed worthy even if they do not have a monetary benefit. Life does not and should not boil down to a simple economic equation.

So the "smarter" decision for Hyatt is the one that accounts not only for the risks but HIS assessment of the "reward" potential.

That's what you seem not to get/respect. You may be that driven by money and nothing else matters. Maybe I would value the brotherhood I have with my teammates even knowing the monetary risks. Neither of us is "stupid" or immature or any of that. We simply place different values on different things.

I stayed with an employer a few years back to the harm of my career and income. I hated the job for the last 4 years or so I was in it. But my kids were settled into a school that they liked and were doing well. They had friends in a safe rural community. We lived a lifestyle that was good for them and all of us at that point in time. That decision undoubtedly cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars in salary over the remainder of my career. But some things have more value than money.

Who is making the call? We are discussing our opinions on the matter. That's what we do here. It may surprise some to admit what we chat about has no bearing on the players or their decisions.

The rest of your reply isn't worth a response because it is redundant and there is nothing which provides further understanding. Happy to converse more if something new or intriguing offered.

 

[sjt18]

Who is making the call? We are discussing our opinions on the matter. That's what we do here. It may surprise some to admit what we chat about has no bearing on the players or their decisions.

The rest of your reply isn't worth a response because it is redundant and there is nothing which provides further understanding. Happy to converse more if something new or intriguing offered.

OK. So it is OK to say your take on the issue is "not smart" and childish/immature?

 

[Volosaurus rex]

Hmm.

Okay, I get it.

But let's draw two extreme cases.

One is the person who always--I mean always--acts in his own self-interest. Him and his family, they are all that matters in his decision matrix.

The other is the person who always--100%--acts selflessly, without regard for his own well-being.

Would you want your local fire fighters to be more the first type, or more the second? How about the police who roll out to your kids' school if there's an active shooter reported? Would you be okay with your barber quitting halfway through your haircut because it would be better for him to leave work for home? Can your surgeon leave the OR because his daughter's birthday party starts in 30 minutes?

Now flip to the opposite extreme. How about the Air Force combat controller who, already at risk of bleeding out, jumps up and empties clip after clip into the enemy bunker to hold their attention while a helicopter full of his buddies is making a risky landing nearby? How about the Marine who is on sentry duty in his operating base, hears a radio call for help from his platoon out on patrol in a nearby village, and without any regard for his own safety or future earnings, jumps into a HMMWV with a buddy to go rescue them, making trip after trip into the ambush zone to pull out wounded buddies?

I think we'll both agree the extreme cases on the selfish side are ridiculous. Meanwhile, the extreme cases on the selfless side are heroic.*

I'm not saying our lads are analogous to either of these extreme cases. I'm not saying football players are soldiers, or fire fighters. It's just a game. But I'm not saying they're barbers or office workers, either. In truth, if you were to say they're more like A or B, you'd have to put them closer to the life savers and combatants. That's just who they are, the mind set they normally display.

And if they are closer to a warrior caste than the opposite, then their sense of self-respect and self-worth is going to be tied up in some of the same values (selflessness, duty, courage) that drive soldiers.

~ ~ ~

Friend, you're performing a risk assessment in your head, on behalf of unnamed Vols players, as if they were you, in your current circumstances. But I don't think they are.

In any case, what we debate here is meaningless to the lads. They're each going to make up their own minds, based on what THEY value.

Go Vols!


* Both are references to recent Medal of Honor winnners: Dave Chapman, USAF, and Dakota Meyer, USMC. Worth googling their stories, both are inspiring.

JP, as a West Point grad with a keen appreciation for military history, are you per chance familiar with the exploits of Alton W. Knappenberger? He was a Medal of Honor recipient for valor demonstrated on 1 February 1944 near Cisterna di Littoria, Italy, as part of the Anzio campaign. "Knappie" single-handedly held off overwhelming German forces with a BAR and "was credited with killing 60 German soldiers during a two-hour span that day." When he learned of what Knappenberger had done, "[the] division's commanding general came to shake his hand and barked, 'A one-man army, that's what you are. A blasted one-man army!'”

Only 5 feet 6 inches and 118 pounds, he later joked that he escaped injury that day simply because he presented such a small target to the enemy. Knappie almost certainly was a distant relative of our mother, whose maiden name also was Knappenberger. For his official citation and selected published articles about him, see Alton W. Knappenberger - Staff Sergeant, United States Army. I'm not sure if you can still find it on Youtube, but Joe Montegna narrated Knappie's story in the 2016 National Memorial Day Concert as a tribute to the World War II generation of soldiers.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

JP, as a West Point grad with a keen appreciation for military history, are you per chance familiar with the exploits of Alton W. Knappenberger? He was a Medal of Honor recipient for valor demonstrated on 1 February 1944 near Cisterna di Littoria, Italy, as part of the Anzio campaign. "Knappie" single-handedly held off overwhelming German forces with a BAR and "was credited with killing 60 German soldiers during a two-hour span that day." When he learned of what Knappenberger had done, "[the] division's commanding general came to shake his hand and barked, 'A one-man army, that's what you are. A blasted one-man army!'”

Only 5 feet 6 inches and 118 pounds, he later joked that he escaped injury that day simply because he presented such a small target to the enemy. Knappie almost certainly was a distant relative of our mother, whose maiden name also was Knappenberger. For his official citation and selected published articles about him, see Alton W. Knappenberger - Staff Sergeant, United States Army. I'm not sure if you can still find it on Youtube, but Joe Montegna narrated Knappie's story in the 2016 National Memorial Day Concert as a tribute to the World War II generation of soldiers.

Wow nice, Rex, I had not heard Knappenberger's story before. Thanks for sharing it...I'll look for more on it.

 

[TrueOrange]

Nobody in my opinion. This ain’t the music city bowl where Alontae Taylor sat out. This would be a huge stage that no one one this team ever came close to seeing. If and I mean if anyone does sit out it will only be Tillman other than him I see no one else.

You'd be surprised how many sit out the New Years 6 Bowl games now. If they have high draft chances and plan to leave that year, more and more of them won't chance it, despite the bigger stage.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

Wow nice, Rex, I had not heard Knappenberger's story before. Thanks for sharing it...I'll look for more on it.

When you read his official citation, it truly strikes you as "Audie Murphyesque." As heroic as it is for a soldier to throw himself on a grenade to save the lives of his comrades-in-arms, it is, to some degree, almost instinctive. However, to singlehandedly stand off such overwhelming forces for more than two hours would require not only courage but sustained will and deliberate thought to engage in such activity. And, to think, it was the only combat he ever saw.

When you dig deeper into his story, it also is somewhat reminiscent of Alvin York's. Like his World War-I predecessor, Knappie was a farm boy who put his shooting skills to exceedingly good use when it became necessary. Like York, Knappie had people who were interested in wrinig a book or making a movie about his experiences, but, again, he shunned all publicity.

 

[SN-A-C Orange]

My story supports VFL-82-JP mom's point of view.
My daughter wanted to quit during the middle of the concert season ... twice ... two different years. I sat her down and said ... you can quit and never do this again AFTER the season is over. BUT quitting in the middle of the season 1) ... is breaking your commitment and promise to everyone. That is not going to be allowed. 2) furthermore, you will not have an attitude about this - we finish what we start. 3) We have a motto: "Make promises sparingly, Keep promises faithfully, NO MATTER WHAT it COSTS!"
Yes, I am hardcore about teaching my kids strong values that guide your decisions.

She also played volleyball with a group of girls from middle school through high school. Before her senior year, she indicated to her vb coach that playing volleyball was not going to be possible because of the class load and her other activities: She was rehearsing with a choral group once a week, taking voice lessons at 6 am twice a week (because that is the only time she could add them to her schedule), taking opera classes at the local university, performing in The Magic Flute, and required to write and orally defend her senior thesis.
I sat my daughter down and told her that the volleyball team would be a shell of a team without the only setter they had for the last 6 years - and that she would be playing her senior year (dad decision) - because the team NEEDED her. They had no other setter ready. They had a freshman coming in, but she was green as a gourd with no club experience at all.

First off, I believed that she wanted to play, but she was afraid of all the other stuff on her plate. Frankly, it was a huge load!!!! But she did play. Every single game .... and the outside hitter had a phenomenal year, setting school records that will likely never be broken and she got a college scholarship to play volleyball. The libero and my daughter were magic on the court. The libero also had a phenomenal year and set the season and career records for digs. An undersized senior setter at 5'4" set 4 records that the VB coach said would never be broken. (Note: My daughter (2 years) later admitted that playing vb her senior year was the right call.)

I'm not judging whether kids should play or not play. As a parent, I am more interested in this being about more than just "me" ... it's about the team, it's also about doing your part, it's about giving your all, it's about honoring your promises and keeping your commitments. Values live far beyond a single decision.

 

[sami]

As for "he could get hurt"... he can get a Lloyd's insurance policy if the NIL money works. He could just as easily suffer a career ending injury playing his first season in the NFL... probably more likely.

You can't be serious. If he's hurt in a bowl game and it's career ending, he's out in the cold. If he's hurt as a rookie drafted in the 1st or 2nd round, he will have banked some money, and potentially very good money. C'mon now.

 

[CAVPUT]

JP, as a West Point grad with a keen appreciation for military history, are you per chance familiar with the exploits of Alton W. Knappenberger? He was a Medal of Honor recipient for valor demonstrated on 1 February 1944 near Cisterna di Littoria, Italy, as part of the Anzio campaign. "Knappie" single-handedly held off overwhelming German forces with a BAR and "was credited with killing 60 German soldiers during a two-hour span that day." When he learned of what Knappenberger had done, "[the] division's commanding general came to shake his hand and barked, 'A one-man army, that's what you are. A blasted one-man army!'”

Only 5 feet 6 inches and 118 pounds, he later joked that he escaped injury that day simply because he presented such a small target to the enemy. Knappie almost certainly was a distant relative of our mother, whose maiden name also was Knappenberger. For his official citation and selected published articles about him, see Alton W. Knappenberger - Staff Sergeant, United States Army. I'm not sure if you can still find it on Youtube, but Joe Montegna narrated Knappie's story in the 2016 National Memorial Day Concert as a tribute to the World War II generation of soldiers.

Thank you for sharing his story. I lost 2 uncles in WWII. Those men were cut from a different cloth as your story clearly demonstrates. There's a reason they're referred to as the greatest generation. I constantly ask myself what would they think and say about our society of today. Yeah...rhetorical.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

My story supports VFL-82-JP mom's point of view.
My daughter wanted to quit during the middle of the concert season ... twice ... two different years. I sat her down and said ... you can quit and never do this again AFTER the season is over. BUT quitting in the middle of the season 1) ... is breaking your commitment and promise to everyone. That is not going to be allowed. 2) furthermore, you will not have an attitude about this - we finish what we start. 3) We have a motto: "Make promises sparingly, Keep promises faithfully, NO MATTER WHAT it COSTS!"
Yes, I am hardcore about teaching my kids strong values that guide your decisions.

She also played volleyball with a group of girls from middle school through high school. Before her senior year, she indicated to her vb coach that playing volleyball was not going to be possible because of the class load and her other activities: She was rehearsing with a choral group once a week, taking voice lessons at 6 am twice a week (because that is the only time she could add them to her schedule), taking opera classes at the local university, performing in The Magic Flute, and required to write and orally defend her senior thesis.
I sat my daughter down and told her that the volleyball team would be a shell of a team without the only setter they had for the last 6 years - and that she would be playing her senior year (dad decision) - because the team NEEDED her. They had no other setter ready. They had a freshman coming in, but she was green as a gourd with no club experience at all.

First off, I believed that she wanted to play, but she was afraid of all the other stuff on her plate. Frankly, it was a huge load!!!! But she did play. Every single game .... and the outside hitter had a phenomenal year, setting school records that will likely never be broken and she got a college scholarship to play volleyball. The libero and my daughter were magic on the court. The libero also had a phenomenal year and set the season and career records for digs. An undersized senior setter at 5'4" set 4 records that the VB coach said would never be broken. (Note: My daughter (2 years) later admitted that playing vb her senior year was the right call.)

I'm not judging whether kids should play or not play. As a parent, I am more interested in this being about more than just "me" ... it's about the team, it's also about doing your part, it's about giving your all, it's about honoring your promises and keeping your commitments. Values live far beyond a single decision.

Exceedingly well done on all fronts. Values do, indeed, live far beyond a single decision. Consistently adhering to the values that one espouses is the way that one demonstrates over time that he/she is a person of honor, someone who can be counted upon, and that ultimately is a legacy that can be taken from this world to the next.

 

[sami]

Friend, do you really think Inky Johnson feels better about his injury because it happened mid-season rather than in a bowl game?

Do you believe Cedric Tillman is less worried about his injury because it happened early in the season?

Football is a risky sport. Nonetheless, in any single game (other than bumps and bruises), the chance of a serious injury, a season-ending event, is low, and the chance of a life-altering one like Inky's is even more rare. But the risk does compound from game to game.

So if you're afraid of getting hurt and losing your chance of getting to the pros, you should sit out your senior season. Not just the last game of it, where the risk is relatively very low.

Or, even smarter, just quit playing football so you don't have to worry about long-term effects like encephalitis (the long-term brain injury).

~ ~ ~

I don't agree with any of that. I'm just following your and McDad's thoughts to their natural conclusion. From your position, it doesn't make sense to sit out one single game, where the risk of significant injury is pretty low. It would make a lot more sense to sit out a big part of your final season, where the cumulative risk is much, much higher. Or quit football entirely because the lifetime risk is even higher than any single season.

I think the lads should play. Worrying about injury is a loser way to approach the game. If you're in it, you should be in it.

Again, won't stop supporting the lads who might decide to sit out, but I personally don't think any of them should.

Go Vols!

Most of this post is so silly that a response would feel wasted. But regarding the bolded part, Johnson and Tillman got hurt during the season - it's irrelevant if they "feel better or worse" about that, but the injuries took place in regular season games when the team is still competing for conference titles and the CFP.

If you can't see the difference between quitting during the regular season with a conference championship and a playoff berth on the line, and sitting out a bowl game exhibition after the championships and playoff berths had been decided, I really don't know what else to say. But given the rest of your post, it's highly likely that you won't.

 

[sjt18]

You can't be serious. If he's hurt in a bowl game and it's career ending, he's out in the cold.

Yes. I'm dead serious. And no, he isn't "out in the cold". He has a degree. If he has half a brain then he's already started to invest some of his NIL money. If he returns next fall then he could possibly make "rookie" money from NIL.

If he's hurt as a rookie drafted in the 1st or 2nd round, he will have banked some money, and potentially very good money. C'mon now.

With NIL and a Lloyd's insurance policy on his physical ability to play football... he'd be able to do the same thing.

And STILL... to at least some people... there are things more important than money.

 

[sjt18]

Most of this post is so silly that a response would feel wasted. But regarding the bolded part, Johnson and Tillman got hurt during the season - it's irrelevant if they "feel better or worse" about that, but the injuries took place in regular season games when the team is still competing for conference titles and the CFP.

If you can't see the difference between quitting during the regular season with a conference championship and a playoff berth on the line, and sitting out a bowl game exhibition after the championships and playoff berths had been decided, I really don't know what else to say. But given the rest of your post, it's highly likely that you won't.

And if you can't understand that there are things of great value that cannot be quantified with a $ sign then you are worse than hopeless.

This isn't about what you or I would do or what we think is smart, noble, or whatever. This is about what a player values and his own risk/reward assessment.

I know the Shuler family. When it became apparent that Heath was going to be a high draft pick the family took out a policy with Lloyd's of London that would pay out if he had an injury in college that prevented him from playing in the NFL. As far as I know, that's still available. You now also have NIL money and especially for a guy playing like Hyatt. He signed a contract with Bose within the past few days.

He appears to have been raised well and have a good head on his shoulders. The VERY worst case is that he has an opportunity to start WAY ahead of most college graduates. That wouldn't be the "tragedy" you seem to think.

 

[sami]

Yes. I'm dead serious. And no, he isn't "out in the cold". He has a degree. If he has half a brain then he's already started to invest some of his NIL money. If he returns next fall then he could possibly make "rookie" money from NIL.


With NIL and a Lloyd's insurance policy on his physical ability to play football... he'd be able to do the same thing.

And STILL... to at least some people... there are things more important than money.

This is getting ridiculous. A kid like Hyatt is preparing for a career as a professional football player, not as a sales rep. All these 'ifs' of yours - the career he is targeting is right in front of him.

The "some things are more important than money" argument is a sanctimonious viewpoint when the future goal that a kid has worked his whole life towards being upon him, a kid and his family make a decision to bypass what is essentially a post season exhibition for the good of his future. He put the team first all season, and he's earned the right to think of his own future at this point.

 

[sjt18]

This is getting ridiculous. A kid like Hyatt is preparing for a career as a professional football player, not as a sales rep. All these 'ifs' of yours - the career he is targeting is right in front of him.

It has ALREADY gotten WORSE than ridiculous with your attempts to convert every decision into one with a $ in front of it. If you really live your life that way then have at it. But don't try to pretend that it is the "best" way to live or even a good way to live. There are things that people value more than money and rightly so. Just because YOUR "dream" is in front of Hyatt doesn't mean HE has to use YOUR risk/reward assessment.

The "some things are more important than money" argument is a sanctimonious viewpoint when the future goal that a kid has worked his whole life towards being upon him, a kid and his family make a decision to bypass what is essentially a post season exhibition for the good of his future.

LOL. No. What is "sanctimonious" is YOU thinking that YOUR "values" should be Hyatt's. I don't know what he will do. But yes. There are things a LOT more valuable than money and neither of us is in a position to determine for Hyatt what those things are for him.

He put the team first all season, and he's earned the right to think of his own future at this point.

I never said he didn't. YOU are the one who wants to say there's only one answer for him... not me.

FTR, we aren't talking about the difference between "no risk" and high risk. We're talking about the difference between "no risk" and a very remote risk that he would suffer a career ending injury. So that could play into his decision as well. He may feel a commitment to his teammates that outweighs that risk FOR HIM.

 

[sami]

And if you can't understand that there are things of great value that cannot be quantified with a $ sign then you are worse than hopeless.

This isn't about what you or I would do or what we think is smart, noble, or whatever. This is about what a player values and his own risk/reward assessment.

I know the Shuler family. When it became apparent that Heath was going to be a high draft pick the family took out a policy with Lloyd's of London that would pay out if he had an injury in college that prevented him from playing in the NFL. As far as I know, that's still available. You now also have NIL money and especially for a guy playing like Hyatt. He signed a contract with Bose within the past few days.

He appears to have been raised well and have a good head on his shoulders. The VERY worst case is that he has an opportunity to start WAY ahead of most college graduates. That wouldn't be the "tragedy" you seem to think.

This will be my last response because the self righteousness in here is just becoming too much.

I'm not advocating a damn thing other than any kid and his family being allowed to make a choice on what is best for the kid and his future without being judged by people who have no idea about his situation simply out of fan selfishness. Simple as that. Whatever choice he or any kid in that position decide on should be respected.

How skipping a bowl game to prepare for a pro football career was somehow turned into something more like being about honor and country, I have no idea. But please carry on.

 

[McDad]

OK. So it is OK to say your take on the issue is "not smart" and childish/immature?

if you would like to say that, you're certainly welcome to do so.

If you are claiming increased exposure to risk when millions of future employment is at stake is the intelligent/mature choice, you can do that as well. It would be difficult to make a case justifying that position.

 

[sjt18]

if you would like to say that, you're certainly welcome to do so.

If you are claiming increased exposure to risk when millions of future employment is at stake is the intelligent/mature choice, you can do that as well. It would be difficult to make a case justifying that position.

Part of what I'm saying that a .001% chance of a career ending injury with NIL and Lloyd's money in reserve isn't much of an "increased exposure" if he values whatever commitment he feels to the team.

You acting as if it is a foregone conclusion that he will suffer that kind of injury if he plays. The FAR more likely outcome is that he doesn't.

An "intelligent"/mature choice doesn't overestimate risks.

You never answered whether you played and took that kind of risk for NO money and with a risk that you might have to live on disability your whole life. If Hyatt assesses that minute risk and decides to play, he won't do so without a nice "parachute" should the unlikely worst come to worst.

 

[McDad]

Part of what I'm saying that a .001% chance of a career ending injury with NIL and Lloyd's money in reserve isn't much of an "increased exposure" if he values whatever commitment he feels to the team.

You acting as if it is a foregone conclusion that he will suffer that kind of injury if he plays. The FAR more likely outcome is that he doesn't.

An "intelligent"/mature choice doesn't overestimate risks.

You never answered whether you played and took that kind of risk for NO money and with a risk that you might have to live on disability your whole life. If Hyatt assesses that minute risk and decides to play, he won't do so without a nice "parachute" should the unlikely worst come to worst.

So, you've done the math and have a value of risk at .001%, now? The money he has made through NIL is great. He deserves it. The hypothetical Lloyd policy (if he elects to retain coverage) might be a nice windfall, too. I don't know how those policies are structured.

I haven't acted any way, except to say putting yourself at increased exposure to risk isn't a smart move. Any other way you feel I have acted has been created by your inference.

I don't see how it is relevant...Never played organized football. I was in band. I stepped in a hole on Goodpasture's field during our halftime show and twisted my ankle. Still bothers me occasionally. Kept me from my dream of modeling ankle monitors in law enforcement catalogs.

 

[hog88]

I think some people don’t quite understand that college football is a job and players sitting out bowl games are just quitting one job to prepare for the next. Comparing college athletics to the brotherhood of the military is asinine, I never saw a damn person have their dedication questioned by their buddies for taking a college drop or terminal leave.

 

[hog88]

So, you've done the math and have a value of risk at .001%, now? The money he has made through NIL is great. He deserves it. The hypothetical Lloyd policy (if he elects to retain coverage) might be a nice windfall, too. I don't know how those policies are structured.

I haven't acted any way, except to say putting yourself at increased exposure to risk isn't a smart move. Any other way you feel I have acted has been created by your inference.

I don't see how it is relevant...Never played organized football. I was in band. I stepped in a hole on Goodpasture's field during our halftime show and twisted my ankle. Still bothers me occasionally. Kept me from my dream of modeling ankle monitors in law enforcement catalogs.

Lyle?

 

[McDad]

Lyle?

I aspire to be as wealthy as a failed SEC college coach.

 

[hog88]

I aspire to be as wealthy as a failed SEC college coach.

Me too.

 

[SN-A-C Orange]

I think some people don’t quite understand that college football is a job and players sitting out bowl games are just quitting one job to prepare for the next ....

We understand the concept you are sharing.

What I find disturbing, is that some are advocating that the highest value is self satisfaction or money.
The answer to the question about the command with the greatest value... Did not mention money or self...but it did direct us to look away from ourselves and look outward to others and love.
Or if you prefer a Spock ideology, ... to paraphrase... The needs of the few or the many... outweigh ... The needs of the one.

 

[hog88]

We understand the concept you are sharing.

What I find disturbing, is that some are advocating that the highest value is self satisfaction or money.
The answer to the question about the command with the greatest value... Did not mention money or self...but it did direct us to look away from ourselves and look outward to others and love.
Or if you prefer a Spock ideology, ... to paraphrase... The needs of the few or the many... outweigh ... The needs of the one.

I don’t believe that was an argument used. Plus whose needs come first? Fans or family?