Bowl Game question… (Hyatt sitting out?)

[VFL-82-JP]

I must have missed that.

OT - I did read Alone at Dawn. Great book and would be a great discussion.

Yah, great book. Written by his sister and one of his former team mates, iirc.

There's a youtube video of the surveillance drone capture of Chapman's final hour or so alive. The video's not that long, they cut out the stretches where nothing is happening. It was submitted as part of his Medal of Honor package, to show just how crazily heroic he was. Worth finding if you haven't seen it before. Warning: people will be chopping onions nearby if you watch it all the way through.

EDIT: here's a link:

I think that trait is diminishing with the younger generations and for high level athletes diminishes even more the closer they get to that big payday.

Pity. Those values should be timeless.

 

[hog88]

Yah, great book. Written by his sister and one of his former team mates, iirc.

There's a youtube video of the surveillance drone capture of Chapman's final hour or so alive. The video's not that long, they cut out the stretches where nothing is happening. It was submitted as part of his Medal of Honor package, to show just how crazily heroic he was. Worth finding if you haven't seen it before. Warning: people will be chopping onions nearby if you watch it all the way through.



Pity. Those values should be timeless.

It definitely reinforced many of my opinions about the Seal community and training.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

It definitely reinforced many of my opinions about the Seal community and training.

Yep.

Perhaps the definitive book written on that battle, Not a Good Day to Die, provides a broader view of the fight on top of the mountain Takur Gar (sp?), and the whole broader operation throughout the valley. The author had incredible--i mean that literally, absolutely unbelievable--access to the black special ops community, particularly Delta--who, very unlike the Seals, seem to never talk to anyone--and gives insights on some of the mind-boggling decisions that Seal team leader made. The entire book is worth the read, but you could just get it for the story of the Takur Gar fight if that's what you were after.

Dunno if you have read it already; if not, I do recommend it.

 

[Delmar]

There's nothing childish about commitment to others, and to your team. There is nothing childish about living life to the fullest. There is nothing childish about courage.

In response to Hog, you said something about how you agree with him unless your health, reputation, or ethics are on the line. A big part of ethics for many people is loyalty. Another important value for some people is selflessness. Duty. Courage. These values, these ethics, all argue in favor of the lads seeing it through.

Sure, there are other ethics/values that might argue in favor of sitting it out. Taking care of one's family by maximizing chances of a big payday, for instance. I get that the ethics can cut both ways. But most of the ones Americans traditionally value most highly, they point toward staying on the team.

Since reputation doesn't come into play in this particular matter, the only consideration left of the three you mentioned is health. Protect your health by not playing football. But if you're going down that road, might as well go ALL the WAY down it. Just quit football for good, because it's not a very healthy way to make a living.

Do you begin to see the faults in this viewpoint, McDad?

Easy for folks to say when they don’t have life changing money at risk for the player and generations of his family. My family is the most important thing in the world to me. If I can change their lives and make it better, that is number one. Period. Nobody else’s opinion counts.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Easy for folks to say when they don’t have life changing money at risk for the player and generations of his family. My family is the most important thing in the world to me. If I can change their lives and make it better, that is number one. Period. Nobody else’s opinion counts.

It's not like we haven't faced decisions that--while perhaps not involving millions of dollars--were very momentous in our own lives.

Any of us older than, say, 40, is going to have made some key decisions of this nature at one point or another. Particularly those in professions where physical well-being is part of the equation.

A soldier risking his or her life in battle with their family on their own back home makes equally momentous decisions. As does the fire-fighter each time they go into a burning building. It may not be a slow, deliberate, conscious decision, but it is momentous nonetheless.

So I don't think "easy for folks to say" applies here.

 

[ABINGDON VOL FAN]

Tillman has a legit injury concern. But let me tell you in turns many scouts off with players that skip out just to skip. Especially if player is already viewed as lazy or has previous issues. Many scouts want to evaluate players especially in the playoffs and even New Years 6 games. I can see it if you have any type of injury issue or maybe a superstar playing in a minor bowl game. But too just sit out when your healthy in a big bowl games you should want to play and help your team win. Most true competitors will play in them situations. GBO

I do not believe NFL scouts place much emphasis on it anymore. The landscape has changed. Just my opinion.

 

[hog88]

Yep.

Perhaps the definitive book written on that battle, Not a Good Day to Die, provides a broader view of the fight on top of the mountain Takur Gar (sp?), and the whole broader operation throughout the valley. The author had incredible--i mean that literally, absolutely unbelievable--access to the black special ops community, particularly Delta--who, very unlike the Seals, seem to never talk to anyone--and gives insights on some of the mind-boggling decisions that Seal team leader made. The entire book is worth the read, but you could just get it for the story of the Takur Gar fight if that's what you were after.

Dunno if you have read it already; if not, I do recommend it.

Haven’t read that one but its now on my list, thanks.

 

[McDad]

It depends on the job really and also what one commits to. Football is a physical team sport. They put their health on the line every time they play. Plenty of people who want to cancel football think every game is meaningless. I would rather they finish out, but I do understand the reasoning.

As for commitment others, your values are completely fine, but not all jobs have the same expectations. If you are a firefighter you will be expected to run into a burning building against your interest. A soldier has a duty to the mission that might supersede personal safety.

Football is not those things, so I don’t want to suggest it’s that serious, but the expectation of an athlete might not be the same as that of a an accountant in terms of risk.

Agree in many ways. The firefighter example is a great one. If i sign on as a FF, I am already agreeing to the risk to serve in that capacity.

 

[Vol737]

Depends. If it’s a senior with ZERO eligibility left and he’s a legitimate draft pick, sit out. An injury like what Hooker sustained would have a huge adverse impact on draft status and contract. If you’re a senior planning on coming back (Covid year, medical redshirt) to improve your prospect of getting drafted, you play. I don’t begrudge a player making the decision that’s best for their future. It’s just the landscape of college football we live in today.

 

[McDad]

Hmm.

Okay, I get it.

But let's draw two extreme cases.

One is the person who always--I mean always--acts in his own self-interest. Him and his family, they are all that matters in his decision matrix.

The other is the person who always--100%--acts selflessly, without regard for his own well-being.

Would you want your local fire fighters to be more the first type, or more the second? How about the police who roll out to your kids' school if there's an active shooter reported? Would you be okay with your barber quitting halfway through your haircut because it would be better for him to leave work for home? Can your surgeon leave the OR because his daughter's birthday party starts in 30 minutes?

Now flip to the opposite extreme. How about the Air Force combat controller who, already at risk of bleeding out, jumps up and empties clip after clip into the enemy bunker to hold their attention while a helicopter full of his buddies is making a risky landing nearby? How about the Marine who is on sentry duty in his operating base, hears a radio call for help from his platoon out on patrol in a nearby village, and without any regard for his own safety or future earnings, jumps into a HMMWV with a buddy to go rescue them, making trip after trip into the ambush zone to pull out wounded buddies?

I think we'll both agree the extreme cases on the selfish side are ridiculous. Meanwhile, the extreme cases on the selfless side are heroic.*

I'm not saying our lads are analogous to either of these extreme cases. I'm not saying football players are soldiers, or fire fighters. It's just a game. But I'm not saying they're barbers or office workers, either. In truth, if you were to say they're more like A or B, you'd have to put them closer to the life savers and combatants. That's just who they are, the mind set they normally display.

And if they are closer to a warrior caste than the opposite, then their sense of self-respect and self-worth is going to be tied up in some of the same values (selflessness, duty, courage) that drive soldiers.

~ ~ ~

Friend, you're performing a risk assessment in your head, on behalf of unnamed Vols players, as if they were you, in your current circumstances. But I don't think they are.

In any case, what we debate here is meaningless to the lads. They're each going to make up their own minds, based on what THEY value.

Go Vols!


* Both are references to recent Medal of Honor winnners: Dave Chapman, USAF, and Dakota Meyer, USMC. Worth googling their stories, both are inspiring.

Good work. Those extremes bring perspective to the conversation. Again, I am not going to castigate any player who chooses to wear the orange and white for a non-consequential bowl game. I am also absolutely going to support any player with an NFL future sitting out. In fact, I agree with the decision.

 

[McDad]

That's a question I have asked myself when players started sitting out bowl games, "how would I advise my son"? I still don't have a solid answer.

McRib and I had the same convo. She would advise McSon to play in the bowl game. I would advise against.

We're dividing the assets over the issue even as we speak.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

McRib and I had the same convo. She would advise McSon to play in the bowl game. I would advise against.

We're dividing the assets over the issue even as we speak.

You call your wife McRib.

Are your own McRibs bruised from her beating on you mercilessly?

 

[McDad]

Let's take that logic and apply it to other things in life. Having children is a cost and may even kill the woman in child birth. But many of us look at those risks and choose to have children.

Most businesses are started by people who take significant personal risks. They invest a lot of money with no guarantee of return. They risk even being broke and destitute. Many leave good jobs. They risk their family. They sacrifice time. The chance of failure is significantly greater than Hyatt's risk of a career ending injury in any particular college game. Yet... people do it.

People go hiking. There are inherent risks in hiking and seldom any direct financial benefit.

I know a guy who left a very good job as a General Manager to serve in a full time evangelistic ministry. He has savings and support but the risks to him and his family are still significant.

There are A LOT of things people do and assess as valuable that do not boil down to dollars and cents. I strongly suspect there are many things like that in your own life.

So it really isn't your call or mine as to whether it is a "smart" move for a player to play or sit out. It comes down to what they place value on and the risks they're willing to assume for what they value.


But you aren't in a position to say it is "unintelligent" since you nor I are in a position to tell Hyatt what non-monetary things are worth to him.

Interesting though. Did you play HS sports and particularly football? If you did... did you receive any direct payment? Did every game you played in carry some risk that you could suffer a life changing injury? But somehow every play was worth it, right? We both could have been crippled for life and dependent on a subsistence payment to survive because of a sports injury... and we still played without pay.

I have already, numerous times in fact, and even directly in reply to you affirmed life is inherently risky.

I have also affirmed unequivocally that i support any player's decision to play equally as much as I support any opt out. The opt out is the smarter, safer decision.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I have already, numerous times in fact, and even directly affirmed life is inherently risky.

I have also affirmed unequivocally that i support any player's decision to play equally as much as I support any opt out. The opt out is the smarter, safer decision.

But not the more respected or loyal decision.

How we each define the "better" decision is always going to come down to what we value most.

 

[McDad]

My very first season playing pop warner, I must've been 9 or 10 or 11, my brother and I wanted to quit halfway through the season. My mom--not even my dad, my mom--sat us down and told us no way, no how. We committed to the team at the start, and we were going to see the season through. We didn't have to play again the following year (we did, actually, and continued playing for many years beyond that), but by God we were going to finish the season.

That was my first real introduction to the values of Duty and Commitment. Loyalty, too. All three were wrapped up in that one butt-chewing.

Maybe that's why I became a soldier. Those three values are all huge for the military.

In any case, Freudian analysis aside, I would advise my daughters--and have, several times over the years--in exactly the same way as my mom advised me. Not about football, in my daughters' cases, but the values and concepts are all the same.

Go Vols!

The 'once you start you finish' is a life lesson we have also taught our children.

Young adults with millions (potentially) hanging in the balance have more to consider than learning to finish what is begun. In fact, as an adult who rents real estate, knowing when to quit has been a more important skill that the skill of sticking with it.

 

[hog88]

McRib and I had the same convo. She would advise McSon to play in the bowl game. I would advise against.

We're dividing the assets over the issue even as we speak.

Taking you to the cleaners is my guess.

 

[McDad]

You call your wife McRib.

Are your own McRibs bruised from her beating on you mercilessly?

One of the posters a few years ago gave her that moniker and I liked it. Has an "Adam and Eve of my rib" vibe to it.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

The 'once you start you finish' is a life lesson we have also taught our children.

Young adults with millions (potentially) hanging in the balance have more to consider than learning to finish what is begun. In fact, as an adult who rents real estate, knowing when to quit has been a more important skill that the skill of sticking with it.

So we agree it is a "life lesson" to be taught to our children.

But we disagree whether it remains important if big money is on the line.

Philosophically, that makes you a relativist and me more of an absolutist on this ethical question.

Go Vols!

 

[McDad]

But not the more respected or loyal decision.

How we each define the "better" decision is always going to come down to what we value most.

That's where I am unique. I don't give a rat's rear about what is more respected or loyal. My decisions are mine alone whether someone else agrees or not. I sleep as soundly with people (outside a handful) hating me or loving me.

There is a LOT of stupidity in action by those seeking respect, loyalty, or approval from others.

 

[McDad]

So we agree it is a "life lesson" to be taught to our children.

But we disagree whether it remains important if big money is on the line.

Philosophically, that makes you a relativist and me more of an absolutist on this ethical question.

Go Vols!

It does. I suspect you as a military veteran are relativist on killing other humans. I am too, fwiw.

 

[McDad]

This has been one of the better discussions in the FF. Have enjoyed it immensely and appreciate all who participated.

 

[Stownterry]

That’s why our receivers are fourth round picks instead first or second round want the money to fast than to put in the time
A lot difference in fourth round pay as second round.

 

[hog88]

So we agree it is a "life lesson" to be taught to our children.

But we disagree whether it remains important if big money is on the line.

Philosophically, that makes you a relativist and me more of an absolutist on this ethical question.

Go Vols!

As I have gotten older I have lost much of my absolutism.

 

[hog88]

That’s why our receivers are fourth round picks instead first or second round want the money to fast than to put in the time
A lot difference in fourth round pay as second round.

WTH?

 

[sjt18]

I have already, numerous times in fact, and even directly in reply to you affirmed life is inherently risky.

I have also affirmed unequivocally that i support any player's decision to play equally as much as I support any opt out. The opt out is the smarter, safer decision.

Not your call to make. Not mine to make.

Things other than money have value. It isn't just that life is inherently risky... but that some risks are deemed worthy even if they do not have a monetary benefit. Life does not and should not boil down to a simple economic equation.

So the "smarter" decision for Hyatt is the one that accounts not only for the risks but HIS assessment of the "reward" potential.

That's what you seem not to get/respect. You may be that driven by money and nothing else matters. Maybe I would value the brotherhood I have with my teammates even knowing the monetary risks. Neither of us is "stupid" or immature or any of that. We simply place different values on different things.

I stayed with an employer a few years back to the harm of my career and income. I hated the job for the last 4 years or so I was in it. But my kids were settled into a school that they liked and were doing well. They had friends in a safe rural community. We lived a lifestyle that was good for them and all of us at that point in time. That decision undoubtedly cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars in salary over the remainder of my career. But some things have more value than money.