Breakdown tn vs kentucky (merged)

#51
#51
Bassmanbruno said:
Also, I hate Perry Stevenson - almost as much as Liggins (the guy looks like a total moron while sprinting and dribbling... its probably because of his height - but then again Chism looks 10x better dribbling the ball down court). Guy (Stevenson) needs to learn to sit and stand up straight so he's not hunched over 24/7. He's very untalented offensively but always gets lucky breaks when he plays us thus making him look good... Ex. we get a rebound but players run into each other and the ball rolls to Stevenson right under the basket uncontested for a dunk... or player falls down while guarding him and leads to another uncontested dunk.

Meeks - meh - he's only annoying because he's a ball hog and thinks he's super man - otherwise I like watching him play. Other than that they're alright... except Harrellson looks pretty stupid as well. Love watching Patterson play - except against our defense.
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I do think the averagae UT fan has a higher opinion of Perry Stevenson than they should..... He's not all that good.....

But Meeks is a very efficient scorer....1.50 point per shot, which is higher than anyone on UT's team.... if you are that efficient, you SHOULD be taking shots. Patterson is even more efficient.....

should be a fun game to watch.....

mm
 
#52
#52
Marc Maggard said:
I do think the averagae UT fan has a higher opinion of Perry Stevenson than they should..... He's not all that good.....

But Meeks is a very efficient scorer....1.50 point per shot, which is higher than anyone on UT's team.... if you are that efficient, you SHOULD be taking shots. Patterson is even more efficient.....

should be a fun game to watch.....

mm
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I was basing it more on the fact that he was near 5 turnovers per game earlier in the year. His shooting % is decent.
 
#53
#53
Bassmanbruno said:
I was basing it more on the fact that he was near 5 turnovers per game earlier in the year. His shooting % is decent.
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He is a TO waiting to happen when he tries to pass into the post.....it's sad how bad he is at that....which I why I'd rather him shoot a three than try to pass for a two....haha

mm
 
#54
#54
Marc Maggard said:
actually, that's correct. UK can fix the problem with a bit more care from the wings..... and they have fixed some of it.

I've tracked every TO in every game since the first one......I'm not just claiming something that isn't true.... UK gives the ball away for a large portion of their TO's.... It's almost ridiculous how bad they have been at the "unforced errors"..... but they are showing some signs of improvement.....

mm
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You can't be ranked 310th in protecting the ball and solve it by just taking 'a bit more care from the wings'. It's like saying "oh well we we(vols) just need to make 2 more 3 ptrs a game", as though a player can will performance like that with minor tweaking. It's never that easy.

You're suggesting that the TOs are the fault of the ky players, and not really the product of theiving Ds, which is wrong.

Kstate is 12th in forcing turnovers; Ky turned it over 40% of the time.

Miami is 294th in forcing turnovers; Ky turned it over 18% of the time.

West Va. is 5th in forcing turnovers; Ky turned it over 37% of the time.

Vandy is 288th in forcing turnovers; Ky turned it over 17% of the time.

Etc, etc, etc

The turnovers are not simply a matter of dumb passes by Ky players, who can fix this with a bit of 'care'; rather, the turnovers are almost directly in line with how effective the D is in creating them. This should suggest that it won't be that easy for Ky to correct this.

This is almost exactly what happened last year too, when KY finished 285th in protecting the ball. I see no difference by the end of the year, esp. with Liggins.
 
#56
#56
lidderer said:
You can't be ranked 310th in protecting the ball and solve it by just taking 'a bit more care from the wings'. It's like saying "oh well we we(vols) just need to make 2 more 3 ptrs a game", as though a player can will performance like that with minor tweaking. It's never that easy.

You're suggesting that the TOs are the fault of the ky players, and not really the product of theiving Ds, which is wrong.

Kstate is 12th in forcing turnovers; Ky turned it over 40% of the time.

Miami is 294th in forcing turnovers; Ky turned it over 18% of the time.

West Va. is 5th in forcing turnovers; Ky turned it over 37% of the time.

Vandy is 288th in forcing turnovers; Ky turned it over 17% of the time.

Etc, etc, etc

The turnovers are not simply a matter of dumb passes by Ky players, who can fix this with a bit of 'care'; rather, the turnovers are almost directly in line with how effective the D is in creating them. This should suggest that it won't be that easy for Ky to correct this.

This is almost exactly what happened last year too, when KY finished 285th in protecting the ball. I see no difference by the end of the year, esp. with Liggins.
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that you have not watched UK play very much this year.

As part of my job, I track every TO made by UK. Go watch the games and tell me that you don't see UK making REALLY stupid passes....which is why their TO numbers are higher than the average team.

Also, your Kstate and WVU games came EARLY in the season when UK was at its height of making dumb passes.

and UK turned it over 23 times to IU....how good are they at forcing TO's? Where are you getting your 'TO's forced" stats?


Of course some teams force more TO's than others...I've never said they don't.... what I said was that UK's high numbers are due in most part to bad play on UK's part as opposed to some magical D played by the opposition......

and to top it all off....Liggins is playing very little lately, so not sure why you mentioned him..... Meeks is the one turning the ball over by trying to feed the post with dumb lob passes he can't make.

mm
 
#57
#57
Marc Maggard said:
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that you have not watched UK play very much this year.
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#59
#59
Marc Maggard said:
1) As part of my job, I track every TO made by UK. Go watch the games and tell me that you don't see UK making REALLY stupid passes....which is why their TO numbers are higher than the average team.

2) and UK turned it over 23 times to IU....how good are they at forcing TO's? Where are you getting your 'TO's forced" stats?


3) Of course some teams force more TO's than others...I've never said they don't.... what I said was that UK's high numbers are due in most part to bad play on UK's part as opposed to some magical D played by the opposition......

4) and to top it all off....Liggins is playing very little lately, so not sure why you mentioned him..... Meeks is the one turning the ball over by trying to feed the post with dumb lob passes he can't make.

mm
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1) As part of my college basketball viewing, I note that almost every team makes dumb passes, and that TOs are the prodcut of indirect variables--which is why good Ds consistently force 'dumb passes'. Watch every other team, they all make bad passes, and it's usually the product of a whole slew of other reasons, rarely is it just "he was careless". That's reductionist and inaccurate.

2) Indiana is 53rd in the country at forcing turnovers, that means they are better than almost 300 other teams, which means they are quite good at it. So, ya.

3) see: 1)

4) I mentioned liggins at the end precisely because of that, which my comment speaks to.
 
#61
#61
lidderer said:
1) As part of my college basketball viewing, I note that almost every team makes dumb passes, and that TOs are the prodcut of indirect variables--which is why good Ds consistently force 'dumb passes'. Watch every other team, they all make bad passes, and it's usually the product of a whole slew of other reasons, rarely is it just "he was careless". That's reductionist and inaccurate.

2) Indiana is 53rd in the country at forcing turnovers, that means they are better than almost 300 other teams, which means they are quite good at it. So, ya.

3) see: 1)

4) I mentioned liggins at the end precisely because of that, which my comment speaks to.
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Once again, I'm not talking in grand generalizations.... I'm talking SPECIFICS. I break down every UK game and track every TO. I know for a fact that a BIG part of the problem is simply dumb passes....much more than an average team. I'm not talking about "some TO's for every team are bad passes....". UK has a ridiculous number of simply unforced bad passes as compared to most other teams.

I'm not even sure why you really are arguing it as I'm quite sure that you don't really pay any attention to UK's TO's and how they occur......it's not like I'm making some assertion that UK isn't doing stupid stuff....I'm actually saying they are MORE stupid than most teams when it comes to taking care of the ball....and I'm correct on this one.

now, I'd appreciate it if you'd share your source of stats with me.....

mm
 
#62
#62
Marc Maggard said:
Once again, I'm not talking in grand generalizations.... I'm talking SPECIFICS. I break down every UK game and track every TO. I know for a fact that a BIG part of the problem is simply dumb passes....much more than an average team. I'm not talking about "some TO's for every team are bad passes....". UK has a ridiculous number of simply unforced bad passes as compared to most other teams.

I'm not even sure why you really are arguing it as I'm quite sure that you don't really pay any attention to UK's TO's and how they occur......it's not like I'm making some assertion that UK isn't doing stupid stuff....I'm actually saying they are MORE stupid than most teams when it comes to taking care of the ball....and I'm correct on this one.

now, I'd appreciate it if you'd share your source of stats with me.....

mm
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So you track every other team as well? Because you'd have to in order to make a claim like "more". Since that's obviously an impossible order to fill, you probably only think KU turns the ball over more because it's both personally frustrating to watch, and because KU handles good Ds poorly--which quite obviously results in more difficult passing situations, which in turn makes bad passes more likely, which...aaaaand you get the idea.

KU finished, again, like 285th in turnovers last year. This is not simply a manner of stupidity that can be corrected easily, or by simply having a player refrain from making 'bad' passes. This is much deeper than that, as is most everything except, like, free throw shooting.

as for the stats, use kenpom, it's a great resource
 
#63
#63
lidderer said:
So you track every other team as well? Because you'd have to in order to make a claim like "more". Since that's obviously an impossible order to fill, you probably only think KU turns the ball over more because it's both personally frustrating to watch, and because KU handles good Ds poorly--which quite obviously results in more difficult passing situations, which in turn makes bad passes more likely, which...aaaaand you get the idea.

KU finished, again, like 285th in turnovers last year. This is not simply a manner of stupidity that can be corrected easily, or by simply having a player refrain from making 'bad' passes. This is much deeper than that, as is most everything except, like, free throw shooting.

as for the stats, use kenpom, it's a great resource
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Well, yes, I watch 4-6 games every single day. I'm a basketball scout by profession.....so yeah, I do watch all kinds of games.....

and again, I have no problem realizing that some teams FORCE more TO's than others.....and when UK (KU is Kansas) plays a team that forces more TO's, they turn the ball over more...... HOWEVER, I'm not talking about those TO's....I"m talking about the unforced TO's where you just throw the ball out of bounds or right to another player..... UK does that about 6-7 times a game until recently (did it some against UofL in opening minutes).

SO, UK should have had about 15 or 16 TO's against WVU, but didn't cause they THREW THE BALL AWAY with no pressure on em at all.....

Finally, I got no idea why you are talking about last year's team.....the majority of those minutes were played by totally different people...... and most of last years TO's were because UK wasn't very good for half the season and did not deal with good D's...... this year its different, which is what I'm talking about.

mm
 
#64
#64
Wow. Nice to have some Kentucky fans around to add "basketball knowledge" to the hoops forum. I have to say that (although I could care less about mm and lid's relationship issues), there is a lot more substance here than most of our threads.

Thanks for dropping by and for the input, guys. Will you be at the game?

Oh, almost forgot. . . .

kd :p
 
#65
#65
kiddiedoc said:
Wow. Nice to have some Kentucky fans around to add "basketball knowledge" to the hoops forum. I have to say that (although I could care less about mm and lid's relationship issues), there is a lot more substance here than most of our threads.

Thanks for dropping by and for the input, guys. Will you be at the game?

Oh, almost forgot. . . .

kd :p
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Half Barrel before the game tomorrow night.
 
#67
#67
kiddiedoc said:
Wow. Nice to have some Kentucky fans around to add "basketball knowledge" to the hoops forum. I have to say that (although I could care less about mm and lid's relationship issues), there is a lot more substance here than most of our threads.

Thanks for dropping by and for the input, guys. Will you be at the game?

Oh, almost forgot. . . .

kd :p
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I'll be at the game. UT's staff got me a couple seats, so I'll be sitting with UT's player's parents. Shouldn't be hard to find me if you know where that section is (I don't)....would love to meet some bball peeps... I'm already going to meet up with your site owner......

mm
 
#70
#70
A little spot on the Cumberland strip. Not my favorite hangout, but it's on the arena end, and it's cold outside.
 
#71
#71
Marc Maggard said:
I'll be at the game. UT's staff got me a couple seats, so I'll be sitting with UT's player's parents. Shouldn't be hard to find me if you know where that section is (I don't)....would love to meet some bball peeps... I'm already going to meet up with your site owner......

mm
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You'll likely be sitting in Section 103, which is where my tickets are.
 
#73
#73
Marc Maggard said:
Well, yes, I watch 4-6 games every single day. I'm a basketball scout by profession.....so yeah, I do watch all kinds of games.....

and again, I have no problem realizing that some teams FORCE more TO's than others.....and when UK (KU is Kansas) plays a team that forces more TO's, they turn the ball over more...... HOWEVER, I'm not talking about those TO's....I"m talking about the unforced TO's where you just throw the ball out of bounds or right to another player..... UK does that about 6-7 times a game until recently (did it some against UofL in opening minutes).

SO, UK should have had about 15 or 16 TO's against WVU, but didn't cause they THREW THE BALL AWAY with no pressure on em at all.....

Finally, I got no idea why you are talking about last year's team.....the majority of those minutes were played by totally different people...... and most of last years TO's were because UK wasn't very good for half the season and did not deal with good D's...... this year its different, which is what I'm talking about.

mm
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Then we should be on the same page in noting errancy across the league, as I tend to take-in a near similar level of viewing. This is probably why it's so peculiar to see someone note KU as being patently more careless than the rest of the league's mid-tier teams.

Sure, KU turns the ball over 'on their own' a lot, but to think that's merely a product of repeated bone-headedness belies a greater truth here, and one that is solidified by last year's squad: Yes, they have totally different players, that's partly the point; the schemes and offense and (though a reach) coaching lead to situations where the offense ends up misfiring(what you'd call an 'self-induced turnover') when a decent pressure-forcing D like IU strolls in.

That's gotta be bothersome to KU. (It might be worth noting here, or not, that Gillespie's tenure at A&M took 2 years before the TO problems were sorted out, and one year at El-paso)

You're also assuming that of those other possessions in the West Va. game, KU wouldn't have the ball turned over in another sense, which judging by their numbers seems unlikely.

I certiainly hope the TO struggle isn't just some early season funk, because other than that KU has all the look of an SEC champion team, both numbers- and talent-wise. Which is pretty frightening given how UT has looked at times this year.
 
#74
#74
lidderer said:
Then we should be on the same page in noting errancy across the league, as I tend to take-in a near similar level of viewing. This is probably why it's so peculiar to see someone note KU as being patently more careless than the rest of the league's mid-tier teams.

Sure, KU turns the ball over 'on their own' a lot, but to think that's merely a product of repeated bone-headedness belies a greater truth here, and one that is solidified by last year's squad: Yes, they have totally different players, that's partly the point; the schemes and offense and (though a reach) coaching lead to situations where the offense ends up misfiring(what you'd call an 'self-induced turnover') when a decent pressure-forcing D like IU strolls in.

That's gotta be bothersome to KU. (It might be worth noting here, or not, that Gillespie's tenure at A&M took 2 years before the TO problems were sorted out, and one year at El-paso)

You're also assuming that of those other possessions in the West Va. game, KU wouldn't have the ball turned over in another sense, which judging by their numbers seems unlikely.

I certiainly hope the TO struggle isn't just some early season funk, because other than that KU has all the look of an SEC champion team, both numbers- and talent-wise. Which is pretty frightening given how UT has looked at times this year.
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Hard to take a guy seriously who doesn't know the difference between Kansas and Kentucky......

And I seriously doubt you watch nearly as much basketball as I do. Heck, not sure it's possible unless it's your job (it is mine). But alas, I'm tiring of running over the same points with you.

You keep talking about what is likely and statistical while I'm telling you what actually is happening.

Had you actually watched the games you are speaking about, you wouldn't be making the assertions you are trying to make. UK hasn't had much issues with a press at all in the past couple of months. The amount of TO's that are happening above the "normal" amount (based on level of opposition) are due to boneheaded plays and not some nifty defense. It has nothing to do with any scheme that UK (not KU) is running or lack of ability to coach a team....unless you think that UK is well coached in every area EXCEPT TO's, which is silly to think.

anyway, i'm bored with this. I watch more UK games than anyone not employed by UK basketball and I'm pretty confident I know what the weaknesses of this team are..... they aren't particularly weak against a press, but if you wait long enough, they'll throw you the ball......

mm
 
#75
#75
Marc Maggard said:
Hard to take a guy seriously who doesn't know the difference between Kansas and Kentucky......

And I seriously doubt you watch nearly as much basketball as I do. Heck, not sure it's possible unless it's your job (it is mine). But alas, I'm tiring of running over the same points with you.

You keep talking about what is likely and statistical while I'm telling you what actually is happening.

Had you actually watched the games you are speaking about, you wouldn't be making the assertions you are trying to make. UK hasn't had much issues with a press at all in the past couple of months. The amount of TO's that are happening above the "normal" amount (based on level of opposition) are due to boneheaded plays and not some nifty defense. It has nothing to do with any scheme that UK (not KU) is running or lack of ability to coach a team....unless you think that UK is well coached in every area EXCEPT TO's, which is silly to think.

anyway, i'm bored with this. I watch more UK games than anyone not employed by UK basketball and I'm pretty confident I know what the weaknesses of this team are..... they aren't particularly weak against a press, but if you wait long enough, they'll throw you the ball......

mm
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Statistically, you use some awfully lame defenses when your point is challenged, and yes we know how bored you are with all this 2-minute posting about the very thing you proclaim to love so much, and we're aware that the point you spouted against was responded to, not posed, by me. If it's 'the same point', it's because you aren't understanding it and I was just trying to help you.

By D pressure I didnt mean the conventional 'press'(which we all know differs greatly from the vague dictionary defintion; much like how, *red-face* KU represents Kentucky in acronym land...though it shoudln't have been hard to understand), I meant simply Ds that strain the O in any number of ways...but you've seen gamefilms, so you know what I mean, I assume.

Sadly, I see no worthwhile difference in the turnovers kentucky gives up compared with what other teams give up. Which is to say, and you can quote me on this: Kentucky will stay near the bottom 3rd of the ncaa in protecting the ball, because of the fact that they give the ball up in all situations, not just individual gaffes.

We watch the games with the teams we care about and when something aggravating or wonderful happens we associate that event with our overall perception of the team--this is textbook neuroscience, and the reason why people believe in clutch still, and people just think their teams make mistakes, and that empty backfield formations dont work because they failed once on a key 3rd down, and on and on and on.

But ya, we just simply disagree, big deal.

Enjoy the kenpom stats, they're the best out there.
 
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