Breakdown tn vs kentucky (merged)

#76
#76
lidderer said:
Statistically, you use some awfully lame defenses when your point is challenged, and yes we know how bored you are with all this 2-minute posting about the very thing you proclaim to love so much, and we're aware that the point you spouted against was responded to, not posed, by me. If it's 'the same point', it's because you aren't understanding it and I was just trying to help you.

By D pressure I didnt mean the conventional 'press'(which we all know differs greatly from the vague dictionary defintion; much like how, *red-face* KU represents Kentucky in acronym land...though it shoudln't have been hard to understand), I meant simply Ds that strain the O in any number of ways...but you've seen gamefilms, so you know what I mean, I assume.

Sadly, I see no worthwhile difference in the turnovers kentucky gives up compared with what other teams give up. Which is to say, and you can quote me on this: Kentucky will stay near the bottom 3rd of the ncaa in protecting the ball, because of the fact that they give the ball up in all situations, not just individual gaffes.

We watch the games with the teams we care about and when something aggravating or wonderful happens we associate that event with our overall perception of the team--this is textbook neuroscience, and the reason why people believe in clutch still, and people just think their teams make mistakes, and that empty backfield formations dont work because they failed once on a key 3rd down, and on and on and on.

But ya, we just simply disagree, big deal.

Enjoy the kenpom stats, they're the best out there.
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Actually, I don't watch the games with any emotion at all.... That's why I get paid for what I do. I'd be more than happy to tell you that the reason UK was near the bottom of the NCAA in TO's was due to good defense from it's opponents....I'd actually prefer to tell you that..... it's just not accurate.

And I'm not using any statistics at all to make my point....I'm using GAME TAPE and actually watching the plays where UK turns the ball over by throwing it out of bounds when nobody is guarding the ball handler.....and I"m bored with discussing this point with someone who OBVIOUSLY has not watched these games and simply is making some argument based on what he things Kenpom shows him....lol

UK makes dumb ass passes.... just like you make dumb remarks about games you don't watch.

IF UK didn't make dumb passes, they'd be about average....they'd give up more TO's to good defensive teams and less TO's to poorer D's....but they'd be 5-6 TO's per game better than they have been.

The good thing for many UK fans is that they have been better the past few games save the first 5 minutes of the UofL game where they threw the ball away multiple times in the first part....with no defensive pressure on them at all.....

As for your "unconventional press".... I got no idea what you are trying to say now..... my remarks were in response to a UT fan who said that he thought UT's full court press would be very effective against UK....I responded to say that UK has not been particularly weak against a full court press..... now you are saying that you were talking about something different???? wow.

SO yeah, I am not only disagreeing with your assertion that UK is somehow more sensitive to the press (which is what my statement was about) than most teams....and I'm certain I'm right....cause I watch these games a LOT closer than you do.....

And KU represents Kansas in acronym land....always has.

mm
 
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#77
#77
Marc Maggard said:
Actually, I don't watch the games with any emotion at all.... That's why I get paid for what I do. I'd be more than happy to tell you that the reason UK was near the bottom of the NCAA in TO's was due to good defense from it's opponents....I'd actually prefer to tell you that..... it's just not accurate.

And I'm not using any statistics at all to make my point....I'm using GAME TAPE and actually watching the plays where UK turns the ball over by throwing it out of bounds when nobody is guarding the ball handler.....and I"m bored with discussing this point with someone who OBVIOUSLY has not watched these games and simply is making some argument based on what he things Kenpom shows him....lol

UK makes dumb ass passes.... just like you make dumb remarks about games you don't watch.

IF UK didn't make dumb passes, they'd be about average....they'd give up more TO's to good defensive teams and less TO's to poorer D's....but they'd be 5-6 TO's per game better than they have been.

The good thing for many UK fans is that they have been better the past few games save the first 5 minutes of the UofL game where they threw the ball away multiple times in the first part....with no defensive pressure on them at all.....

As for your "unconventional press".... I got no idea what you are trying to say now..... my remarks were in response to a UT fan who said that he thought UT's full court press would be very effective against UK....I responded to say that UK has not been particularly weak against a full court press..... now you are saying that you were talking about something different???? wow.

SO yeah, I am not only disagreeing with your assertion that UK is somehow more sensitive to the press (which is what my statement was about) than most teams....and I'm certain I'm right....cause I watch these games a LOT closer than you do.....

And KU represents Kansas in acronym land....always has.

mm
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yeesh, I dont even know where to begin with this, it's all over the map and defensive to the point where I almost feel kinda reluctant to say anything, but I'll be kind in response.

I was simply clarifying, in the press issue, your mention of their (in)effectiveness against pressing teams, that was all.

You're making a huge error in your evaluations--in fact did you read the article in last month's new yorker on scouting? And how did that make you feel? Did you not get the gist of its particulars? Did you not understand, to some degree, that what it was suggesting was that there can be a significant disadvantage to getting too wooed by firsthand knowledge, as in treating small, noticed events with way more significance than they deserve? This is actually the overriding theory behind "wisdom of crowds"(Suriowecki, 2005 I think), a nice compendium book that deals with the idea that experts(in your case self-proclaimed) have their judgement clouded by insignificant data(think here of the medical revelation in chicago 8 years ago and how they pared down symptoms questioning to BETTER treat heart attack victims, essentially ignoring veteran doctor's 'complex' analysis to BETTER serve the patients).

You make the mistake of suggesting that the game proper is much more important than the numbers, which is terribly wrong. The game itself, is, however, equally important.

I'm not entirely sure why you think I haven't seen many Kentucky games this year...I mean this is the internet era, I can watch towson state on justintv if I wanted to. I like Ky basketball and fear them greatly as a volfan, so naturally I'd tune in---plus for other specific reasons that arent germane to this board.

I of course do note that many of the TOs are the product of poor decisions, but I dont believe they outnumber(at least not to any significant degree) the mistakes other teams tend to make over the course of a season. And if they do even a little(which I'll admit they do 'a little'), it is not simply a correctable flaw that we're likely to see this season, barring the rebirth of prep-school liggins.

At any rate, you're an intelligent poster who can battle back pretty good and humorously, and it's nice to see a rival boarder back-up their point rather than just nosediving into pure smack(a little is always good however).

Say what you will negatively about kenpom, but I think if you, like I do, dig into that PLUS watch the games, you'll be even further ahead.

Cheers for the responses and your level-head, and go...um...Kansas! no wait...
 
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#80
#80
lidderer said:
yeesh, I dont even know where to begin with this, it's all over the map and defensive to the point where I almost feel kinda reluctant to say anything, but I'll be kind in response.

I was simply clarifying, in the press issue, your mention of their (in)effectiveness against pressing teams, that was all.

You're making a huge error in your evaluations--in fact did you read the article in last month's new yorker on scouting? And how did that make you feel? Did you not get the gist of its particulars? Did you not understand, to some degree, that what it was suggesting was that there can be a significant disadvantage to getting too wooed by firsthand knowledge, as in treating small, noticed events with way more significance than they deserve? This is actually the overriding theory behind "wisdom of crowds"(Suriowecki, 2005 I think), a nice compendium book that deals with the idea that experts(in your case self-proclaimed) have their judgement clouded by insignificant data(think here of the medical revelation in chicago 8 years ago and how they pared down symptoms questioning to BETTER treat heart attack victims, essentially ignoring veteran doctor's 'complex' analysis to BETTER serve the patients).

You make the mistake of suggesting that the game proper is much more important than the numbers, which is terribly wrong. The game itself, is, however, equally important.

I'm not entirely sure why you think I haven't seen many Kentucky games this year...I mean this is the internet era, I can watch towson state on justintv if I wanted to. I like Ky basketball and fear them greatly as a volfan, so naturally I'd tune in---plus for other specific reasons that arent germane to this board.

I of course do note that many of the TOs are the product of poor decisions, but I dont believe they outnumber(at least not to any significant degree) the mistakes other teams tend to make over the course of a season. And if they do even a little(which I'll admit they do 'a little'), it is not simply a correctable flaw that we're likely to see this season, barring the rebirth of prep-school liggins.

At any rate, you're an intelligent poster who can battle back pretty good and humorously, and it's nice to see a rival boarder back-up their point rather than just nosediving into pure smack(a little is always good however).

Say what you will negatively about kenpom, but I think if you, like I do, dig into that PLUS watch the games, you'll be even further ahead.

Cheers for the responses and your level-head, and go...um...Kansas! no wait...
Click to expand...


I must have missed the New Yorker article.... Was too busy actually scouting to read about scouting.... Kinda like I was too busy actually watching the games to read Kenpom about the game.

I imagine you've seen KU play this year..... probably seen Kentucky play some as well. I just highly doubt you paid much attention to the cause of the TO's... Just like I seriously doubt you can tell me how many points came off transition defensive mistakes or how many deflections UK had (you may know how many KU had... I get the sense you really like the Jayhawks). I imagine you sit there and watch the game just like most casual fans do...which is why you don't know what you are talking about in this instance.....and what do Germans have to do with this?:crazy:

I can tell you all those things and more..... and you don't keep a job where college coaches pay you for your opinion by being "too familiar" with basketball and somehow having that skew your opinion. Next time some college coach asks me about a player I'll remind him that I shouldn't watch more than a few of his games out of fear of knowing too much about his skills.

I'm also not sure how I treat Jodie Meeks throwing the ball directly to some defender with more importance than it deserves...I'd say I'm right on track with the importance meter.

I do find it funny that you are telling me that I'm making a huge error in my evaluation cause I'm relying on what I actually see where you are relying on "statistics" and what you think should be happening. I really don't understand how you find it so odd that a team could be prone to one specific type of TO vs and being just like other teams. I sure hope you never have this discussion with a team with a poor dribbling PG who dribbles it off his foot 3 times a game.....or a penetrating team who gets twice as many offensive fouls called on them.

As for my "self proclaimed" status..... I'll be sitting in seats at tonights game provided to me by YOUR coaching staff.... I'd say they would tell you the same thing I'm telling you when it comes to my 14 years of scouting college basketball.

As for the TO's being easily corrected....they have already improved to some degree. I am surprised to learn that it's not possible to correct mistakes in basketball or improve on weaknesses as the season goes on. That Ken Pomeroy sure is a stickler, huh.:mega_shok:

mm
 
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#82
#82
Marc Maggard said:
I must have missed the New Yorker article.... Was too busy actually scouting to read about scouting.... Kinda like I was too busy actually watching the games to read Kenpom about the game.

I imagine you've seen KU play this year..... probably seen Kentucky play some as well. I just highly doubt you paid much attention to the cause of the TO's... Just like I seriously doubt you can tell me how many points came off transition defensive mistakes or how many deflections UK had (you may know how many KU had... I get the sense you really like the Jayhawks). I imagine you sit there and watch the game just like most casual fans do...which is why you don't know what you are talking about in this instance.....and what do Germans have to do with this?:crazy:

I can tell you all those things and more..... and you don't keep a job where college coaches pay you for your opinion by being "too familiar" with basketball and somehow having that skew your opinion. Next time some college coach asks me about a player I'll remind him that I shouldn't watch more than a few of his games out of fear of knowing too much about his skills.

I'm also not sure how I treat Jodie Meeks throwing the ball directly to some defender with more importance than it deserves...I'd say I'm right on track with the importance meter.

I do find it funny that you are telling me that I'm making a huge error in my evaluation cause I'm relying on what I actually see where you are relying on "statistics" and what you think should be happening. I really don't understand how you find it so odd that a team could be prone to one specific type of TO vs and being just like other teams. I sure hope you never have this discussion with a team with a poor dribbling PG who dribbles it off his foot 3 times a game.....or a penetrating team who gets twice as many offensive fouls called on them.

As for my "self proclaimed" status..... I'll be sitting in seats at tonights game provided to me by YOUR coaching staff.... I'd say they would tell you the same thing I'm telling you when it comes to my 14 years of scouting college basketball.

As for the TO's being easily corrected....they have already improved to some degree. I am surprised to learn that it's not possible to correct mistakes in basketball or improve on weaknesses as the season goes on. That Ken Pomeroy sure is a stickler, huh.:mega_shok:

mm
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There's just like a heap of blanket statements in here that are basically you citing your qualifications, which is like saying "I'm right because I have a PhD.", which is obviously wrong. My more nuanced point was not simply "watch less games! it helps!", but rather: sometimes in the process of immersing yourself in basketball(or whatever) you get too taken with small insignificant insights that dont rely have any causal effects, or are not significantly correlated. THAT's the point, and it holds true almost anywhere.

Germane=/=German, but I guess you're too busy watching basketball games to read up on dictionaries, logic, etc.

Your comment about me 'relying' on stats glosses over my final point, which was that any sane, forward-thinking person--and my word, ESPECIALLY, one would think, someone who's livelihood rests on it--should incorporate both their viewing of games and those games statistics into their assessmenet. That you don't do this strikes me as shoddy.

And you don't have time for an article about your very profession? I mean, that seems silly, you have time to post on a vols messageboard with rebuttals but you can't focus on an intelligently penned dissection/exploration of the very job you love so much?

Priorities!

Hey you know what I use as an acronym for the gators?

FU
 
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#86
#86
But seriously, I would forget what I was arguing about by now.
They're just matching wits, I dunno... Anybody got the score ???
 
#88
#88
Bottom line , I know everybody is making their way to the game, as am I, but both of you are wrong and it's just simple as that.

Peace ! Go Vols !!!
 
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#91
#91
Would I be bb or bmb? Man isn't capitalized in my user name so that's why I would use bb... but it's basically three words so leaning toward bmb.

Edit: scratch that - bruno isn't capitalized either so it's bmb

bmb
 
#93
#93
lidderer said:
There's just like a heap of blanket statements in here that are basically you citing your qualifications, which is like saying "I'm right because I have a PhD.", which is obviously wrong. My more nuanced point was not simply "watch less games! it helps!", but rather: sometimes in the process of immersing yourself in basketball(or whatever) you get too taken with small insignificant insights that dont rely have any causal effects, or are not significantly correlated. THAT's the point, and it holds true almost anywhere.

Germane=/=German, but I guess you're too busy watching basketball games to read up on dictionaries, logic, etc.

Your comment about me 'relying' on stats glosses over my final point, which was that any sane, forward-thinking person--and my word, ESPECIALLY, one would think, someone who's livelihood rests on it--should incorporate both their viewing of games and those games statistics into their assessmenet. That you don't do this strikes me as shoddy.

And you don't have time for an article about your very profession? I mean, that seems silly, you have time to post on a vols messageboard with rebuttals but you can't focus on an intelligently penned dissection/exploration of the very job you love so much?

Priorities!

Hey you know what I use as an acronym for the gators?

FU
Click to expand...


Well, after watching the game vs UT, I'm even MORE convinced I was right.....

toodles

mm

(and "german" was a joke, silly man)
 
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#95
#95
VOLinthaATL said:
I always love me some Marc Maggard

vatl
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He loves you too.....

But my point is that UT didn't get many TO's from it's full court press.... the ones they got were on inbounds plays....and even then UK only had 15, which is a VAST improvement over the first of the year when they averages over 20 against much lesser defenses....Improvement shouldn't be possible, but obviously it is......

Just ask Kenpom.....

mm
 
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#96
#96
Congrats Mark on the win. We are far from the talent of last years team, I guess we lost better players than we expected.
 
#97
#97
Fine Vol said:
Congrats Mark on the win. We are far from the talent of last years team, I guess we lost better players than we expected.
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Let's be honest, UT is not 18 points worse than UK at home.....

UT's D on Meeks was really bad and when the did decide to guard him, he was in a "Jordan" zone. UK just kept feeding him the ball and he was on fire.

The big issue was UT had nobody who could hit a 3. UK didn't even guard Prince at all....the guy on him just stood in the middle of the paint and waited to help on Tyler, which is why he went 5-14. UK played 5 on 4 against UT when JP was in the game.

The only part I thought BCG did wrong was the inbounds plays......UK had all four players close to be ball, which plays right into what Pearl wants to do..... BCG should have ran 3 players away and just had one come get the ball....or a screen or two. HE did that once out of a TO toward the end and it worked just fine.....

UT needs some leadership....once they find it, they'll be fine.

mm
 
#98
#98
Marc Maggard said:
He loves you too.....

But my point is that UT didn't get many TO's from it's full court press.... the ones they got were on inbounds plays....and even then UK only had 15, which is a VAST improvement over the first of the year when they averages over 20 against much lesser defenses....Improvement shouldn't be possible, but obviously it is......

Just ask Kenpom.....

mm
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"vast improvement", hahaa. The vols are 200th in forcing turnovers, it was not hard to imagine that kentucky wouldn't have had a problem last night in this regard.

Which was my entire point. (of note: Kentucky STILL managed to turn it over a greater percentage then the poor vols D has been forcing this year)

How on earth this possibly is viewed as improvement is insane. But yes, ask kenpom, he--like I--would have told you that improvement did not happen last night. Can it occur? Of course. Will it improve to any significant end? Doubtful.

I'm sure they'll turn it over a lot vs Auburn and someone stupid will say "oh no, kentucky has regressed again, making dumb decisions!" when really the same old story is being played out just as expected, but this time against a good D.
 
#99
#99
lidderer said:
"vast improvement", hahaa. The vols are 200th in forcing turnovers, it was not hard to imagine that kentucky wouldn't have had a problem last night in this regard.

Which was my entire point. (of note: Kentucky STILL managed to turn it over a greater percentage then the poor vols D has been forcing this year)

How on earth this possibly is viewed as improvement is insane. But yes, ask kenpom, he--like I--would have told you that improvement did not happen last night. Can it occur? Of course. Will it improve to any significant end? Doubtful.

I'm sure they'll turn it over a lot vs Auburn and someone stupid will say "oh no, kentucky has regressed again, making dumb decisions!" when really the same old story is being played out just as expected, but this time against a good D.
Click to expand...
Auburn is a good defense in the same way Cici's is a good pizza restaurant.
 
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