Bush admits Iraq nothing to do with 9/11

#101
#101
CSpindizzy said:
How did America strike first in the Revolutionary War?
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Unless one counts the Boston Massacre as the official beginning of the Revolutionary War, we definitely fired the first shot at the British. Most believe that it was Samuel Adams who fired that first shot at Lexington.
 
#102
#102
Most historians do count that. Considering that it was the first move by British forces to put down a rebellious group that resulted in gunfire killing several. This led to an increase in the British presence in the colonies. A mild form of martial law was enacted and several legislative actions were made to 'stick it' to the colonists.
 
#103
#103
Had Samuel Adams lived in modern times, he would have been taken to Guantanamo or some camp in Europe for such actions. I'm of course implying the equivalent. He would have been branded an enemy combatant and terrorist and detained for some untold amount of time.
 
#104
#104
CSpindizzy said:
Speaking of dense....following this whole discussion you didn't answer my question. I will be a little more specific. In this Israel-Hezbollah conflict who got the horn?
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Since you have taken the "horn" out of context...let's look at this a different way. You are the Israeli PM and have given peace a chance by moving out of the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Yet your country, a sovereign nation since 1948, continues to be the target of terrorism day in and day out. Frustrated by all the "talks" and unreciprocated actions for peace by the terrorist nations, you have no choice but to respond militarily. Additionally, you know that Iran is the money and Syria is the logistical means behind Hizbollah and have continually called for your demise. You also know that Lebanon has not fulfilled it's promise to disarm Hizbollah. With that information, and assuming you are not an anti-Semite, what do you do?
 
#105
#105
I'm still waiting to get an answer to who got the horn....how is asking a question about your point taking it out of context? It's a simple question asking who you think got the horn. You said it. I'm asking who you were referring to.
 
#108
#108
J. Quest, if you refuse to answer direct questions, then you should probably not enter into an argument of ideas.
 
#109
#109
Actually, I can. What you would like to hear and have everyone agree on is that Israel got it handed to them. If you watch CNN and listen to the left, then yep...that's what happened. Unlike CSpin, I don't actually know and communicate on a regular basis with the "boots on the ground", so I rely on facts and statistics for information. Israel will never win a popularity contest, and neither will the US. That doesn't mean we should bend over and let the terrorists and their mock governments defeat us.

Israel severely set back Hizbollah's ability to strike. Given that there is a seige on Lebanese ports and access to Syria is being throttled, It would be only a matter of time for Hizbollah...they got the horn!!!

Israel got hit with rockets that did little damage and has done little to affect daily life in Israel....no horn there.

All you can say, is that Israel didn't win a popularity contest...well, that's what happens in a war. :peace2:
 
#110
#110
Clearly you don't understand logic here. "Boots on the ground" are the soldiers actually fighting the battles. I'm not sure what "facts and statistics" you have but clearly the ones actually there fighting and dealing with this on a daily basis are more factual than your own assessment of events.

You don't have to watch CNN to figure this out.

FACT: Hezbollah still has the two soldiers
FACT: Hezbollah was still able to launch attacks into Israel
FACT: Israel did not stop the attcks like Olmert pledged
FACT: attacks actually got worse up to the cease-fire
FACT: Hezbollah still exists
FACT: Hezbollah is able to regroup and retake the land in the south
FACT: Hezbollah is more popular than ever
FACT: Hezbollah is the party in power in Lebanon
FACT: Hezbollah can and is still getting support from Syria and Iran despite bombings to roads
FACT: Israel had to back down without achieving any of its goals
FACT: Hamas has been emboldened by this event
FACT: Iran has been emboldened by this event
FACT: Syria has been emboldened by this event

I can go on all day with this. Perhaps you'd like to argue with the Israeli people and tell them the opposite of what THEY say happened. I'm sure you in your cozy American home know much more than those there in Israel who deal with this on a daily basis.
 
#113
#113
J.Quest said:
Actually, I can. What you would like to hear and have everyone agree on is that Israel got it handed to them. If you watch CNN and listen to the left, then yep...that's what happened. Unlike CSpin, I don't actually know and communicate on a regular basis with the "boots on the ground", so I rely on facts and statistics for information. Israel will never win a popularity contest, and neither will the US. That doesn't mean we should bend over and let the terrorists and their mock governments defeat us.

Israel severely set back Hizbollah's ability to strike. Given that there is a seige on Lebanese ports and access to Syria is being throttled, It would be only a matter of time for Hizbollah...they got the horn!!!

Israel got hit with rockets that did little damage and has done little to affect daily life in Israel....no horn there.

All you can say, is that Israel didn't win a popularity contest...well, that's what happens in a war. :peace2:
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Tactically, Israel won every battle. Operationally, Israel was winning. Strategically, Israel lost the war when Olmert crumbled to international pressure. In the realm of wars and battles, tactics are the little details and strategy is the big picture. Israel lost the big picture.
 
#114
#114
emainvol said:
i still have a hard time considering the war with nazi germany a preemptive strike though.
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This is from Wikipedia:
A preemptive attack (or preemptive war) is waged in an attempt to repel or defeat an imminent offensive or invasion, or to gain a strategic advantage in an impending (usually unavoidable) war.
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I, for one, would definitely state that the US declaring war (which, in and of itself, is an act of war), prior to Nazi Germany made any offensive against the US, was preemptive.
 
#115
#115
therealUT said:
This is from Wikipedia:

I, for one, would definitely state that the US declaring war (which, in and of itself, is an act of war), prior to Nazi Germany made any offensive against the US, was preemptive.
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but germany declared war on the US shortly after we declared war with Japan. if they declared war on us, it was preemptive on their part, not ours.
 
#116
#116
therealUT said:
Tactically, Israel won every battle. Operationally, Israel was winning. Strategically, Israel lost the war when Olmert crumbled to international pressure. In the realm of wars and battles, tactics are the little details and strategy is the big picture. Israel lost the big picture.
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Agreed. Israel should have gone after Syria and/or Iran. Lebanon is nothing more than a safe-haven for Hizbollah, who is the puppet of Iran.
 
#117
#117
CSpindizzy said:
Most historians do count that. Considering that it was the first move by British forces to put down a rebellious group that resulted in gunfire killing several. This led to an increase in the British presence in the colonies. A mild form of martial law was enacted and several legislative actions were made to 'stick it' to the colonists.
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If the Boston Massacre was the first act of the Revolutionary War, then the Revolutionary war lasted 13 years, instead of 8? I am guessing one could claim it as the beginning of the war, however, I would state it was one of the many causes for war. The war actually beginning at Lexington, the first shots being fired by the Americans, against a British Military unit moving on orders to seize fire arms and gunpowder (ie, not an offensive maneuver.)
 
#118
#118
Safe havens for small non-national groups seem to get the best of large nations. See Iraq, Lebanon, West Bank, Gaza, Viet Cong, etc.
 
#119
#119
British forces retreating to a island fortress a few years before that. British forces moving in and more or less declaring martial laws on local areas. Doubling if not tripling numbers of troops prior to those battles.

Wouldn't you then flip it around and say that Britain struck first? They heard rumors of rebels stockpiling power and armaments. They send in a force to seize this and if necessary to repel any rebels. Their orders were to go after rebels as well. The lattitude was wide in what that could mean.
 
#121
#121
Thank you. I just take those who lived it and fought in it over someone here in the states who reads the web and gets filtered news.
 
#124
#124
CSpindizzy said:
British forces retreating to a island fortress a few years before that. British forces moving in and more or less declaring martial laws on local areas. Doubling if not tripling numbers of troops prior to those battles.

Wouldn't you then flip it around and say that Britain struck first? They heard rumors of rebels stockpiling power and armaments. They send in a force to seize this and if necessary to repel any rebels. Their orders were to go after rebels as well. The lattitude was wide in what that could mean.
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England had every right to mass troops wherever she pleased. Taking police action as a state, in your own sovereign territory, is not an act of war. I would agree that the Boston Massacre would be an act of war, however, with the large gap between the Massacre and the Battles of Lexington and Concord, it is hard to assign exactly what war the Boston Massacre is to be assigned to. To me, that would be the same as claiming that the Civil War begin in 1854, in Kansas. I can see your argument, and I can see where you are coming from. I am just coming from a different place, and therefore, I do not believe we will reach an agreement on this.
 
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