Bush Warns Of 'holocaust' If Iran Gets Nukes

#127
#127
CSpindizzy said:
I guess those bodies are worth more than the ones in even greater number in Darfur? I hate to break the news to you but it's not just liberals who have been fed up with this crap.

Before only certain elements of Iraq's population were subject to abuse. Now we see the entire nation subject to bombings and massacres. Seeing how many are dying under the watchful eye of the US government will GWB be prosecuted for those deaths? Nope.

Just how is Iraq worth it? Strange that terrorists are given more training than the so-called training camp we claimed was there. Weapons of all types have now filtered into the hands of those who never had access to them before. Iran now has the ability to test our tactics and weapons and to test their own. Just as Syria and Iran has learned about the IDF's complete failure in Lebanon last year, both are learning how to defeat the US. Al Qaeda still exists and is even surging past the point it was in 9/11/01. I'm not sure how it is worth it when the infrastructure situation in Iraq is either the same or worse than under Saddam, killings are all over the map literally, and terrorism has grown by leaps and bounds. And considering our credibility is shot for invading Iraq for a reason that was false, I'd say we're far short of this being worth it. But by all means tell me how it IS worth it. Explain the big picture.
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Wow again, so your assumption is if we did nothing then these guys would not be bombing, training, etc. Or you atleast assume it would be at a decreased rate or quality. What a load. 9/11 was a hello from these factions not a climax or a goodbye. No one wants this. No one wants the situation in Africa or southeast Asia. But, one side is pushing it and someone has to do something. Not because we are world police but because it is our interest too.

The failure in Lebanon and others is because one side is following a rule book the other does not. If we could convince America Darfur had some immediate self interest yes we should do something but people are not ready for it. News flash this is not going away not if we leave Iraq or stay. Leaving Irag will only free up there resources for elsewhere. This did not start on 9/11 this started a long long time ago and it will have a conclusion .

9/11 just made others aware made others care and come to the realization of its immediacy. Terrorism has not grown one bit you are just more aware of it. I have been aware of it my whole life because I am a Jew. Because I paid attention to all the bombings leading up to it, and massacres/genocides in S. East Asia, Africa, And the middle east. Everything else is political spin. How about the Armenians, How do states become Muslim? Welcome to reality. I am sure we will leave Irag and some fools will claim we lit some kind of fire to start this and that is utter nonsense. TheReligionofPeace.com - Islam: Making a True Difference in the World
Islamic Morality (this one is by a former Muslim arab turned atheist)

Here is some light reading, I am sure you will shut your eyes and come up with a smart rationalization because the reality is too dark and costly but it is what it is. We are at war we will be at war. Whether or leader says it or we hide they are at war with us. And it is war we can only win by liberating and educating states. As long as Muslim education institutions are intact we cannot win. We have to free the minds of the poor souls who are abused by the institution of Islam.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow
the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."
Qur'an, Sura 9:29

So you still think we should just get out and negotiate? Say what ever well worded and smart response you like this is not going to work itself out, no cold war, no hoping it collapses on itself. It has been operating for over a thousand years and is a well oiled war machine. Call me crazy but this is too important to be quiet and be cool about in social settings. Focus your hate on GWB it will do us all a lot of good. :salute:
 
#134
#134
Jewbaccah said:
Wow again, so your assumption is if we did nothing then these guys would not be bombing, training, etc. Or you atleast assume it would be at a decreased rate or quality. What a load. 9/11 was a hello from these factions not a climax or a goodbye. No one wants this. No one wants the situation in Africa or southeast Asia. But, one side is pushing it and someone has to do something. Not because we are world police but because it is our interest too.

The failure in Lebanon and others is because one side is following a rule book the other does not. If we could convince America Darfur had some immediate self interest yes we should do something but people are not ready for it. News flash this is not going away not if we leave Iraq or stay. Leaving Irag will only free up there resources for elsewhere. This did not start on 9/11 this started a long long time ago and it will have a conclusion .

9/11 just made others aware made others care and come to the realization of its immediacy. Terrorism has not grown one bit you are just more aware of it. I have been aware of it my whole life because I am a Jew. Because I paid attention to all the bombings leading up to it, and massacres/genocides in S. East Asia, Africa, And the middle east. Everything else is political spin. How about the Armenians, How do states become Muslim? Welcome to reality. I am sure we will leave Irag and some fools will claim we lit some kind of fire to start this and that is utter nonsense. TheReligionofPeace.com - Islam: Making a True Difference in the World
Islamic Morality (this one is by a former Muslim arab turned atheist)

Here is some light reading, I am sure you will shut your eyes and come up with a smart rationalization because the reality is too dark and costly but it is what it is. We are at war we will be at war. Whether or leader says it or we hide they are at war with us. And it is war we can only win by liberating and educating states. As long as Muslim education institutions are intact we cannot win. We have to free the minds of the poor souls who are abused by the institution of Islam.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow
the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."
Qur'an, Sura 9:29

So you still think we should just get out and negotiate? Say what ever well worded and smart response you like this is not going to work itself out, no cold war, no hoping it collapses on itself. It has been operating for over a thousand years and is a well oiled war machine. Call me crazy but this is too important to be quiet and be cool about in social settings. Focus your hate on GWB it will do us all a lot of good. :salute:
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Let's analyze your complete misinterpretation of what I said. Clearly you assosciate a secular Ba'athist regime of Saddam with those who conspired in the actions of 9/11. This is totally wrong on your part. We did nothing against his regime for 12 years and what did he do? No weapons program no further invasions, etc. I'm not sure why you're confusing Saddam with Al Qaeda but they are clearly separate and distinct. What we did to Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. If anything what we're doing to Iraq has facilitated Al Qaeda, distracted us from the primary threat, and has undermined our position within the moderate Muslims in the region.

Clearly our invasion of Iraq, while loved by Israel, has done nothing to help our position or actaully decrease terrorism in the world. When we had a chance and even the support of many Muslims after 9/11 we could have simply kept Iraq in check while actually pursuing Al Qaeda and finished their command and control in Afghanistan. Now we have a breeding ground for terrorism far many more times than the simple camp we listed as a reason to invade, we have an Iran with far more nuclear capabilities than it did before because we have been distracted, and in an effort to 'democratize' the region, we have created far more extremist mindsets in Lebanon, Egypt, etc. Hizbollah and Hamas have grown. Even Fatah has turned against us. So you can justify this invasion of Iraq all you want. Facts speak for themselves. To use a campaign phrase 'Is the Middle East better off than it was 4 years ago?' I will answer this for you. NO.
 
#135
#135
CSpindizzy said:
Let's analyze your complete misinterpretation of what I said. Clearly you assosciate a secular Ba'athist regime of Saddam with those who conspired in the actions of 9/11. This is totally wrong on your part. We did nothing against his regime for 12 years and what did he do? No weapons program no further invasions, etc. I'm not sure why you're confusing Saddam with Al Qaeda but they are clearly separate and distinct. What we did to Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. If anything what we're doing to Iraq has facilitated Al Qaeda, distracted us from the primary threat, and has undermined our position within the moderate Muslims in the region.

Clearly our invasion of Iraq, while loved by Israel, has done nothing to help our position or actaully decrease terrorism in the world. When we had a chance and even the support of many Muslims after 9/11 we could have simply kept Iraq in check while actually pursuing Al Qaeda and finished their command and control in Afghanistan. Now we have a breeding ground for terrorism far many more times than the simple camp we listed as a reason to invade, we have an Iran with far more nuclear capabilities than it did before because we have been distracted, and in an effort to 'democratize' the region, we have created far more extremist mindsets in Lebanon, Egypt, etc. Hizbollah and Hamas have grown. Even Fatah has turned against us. So you can justify this invasion of Iraq all you want. Facts speak for themselves. To use a campaign phrase 'Is the Middle East better off than it was 4 years ago?' I will answer this for you. NO.
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Wow you are hopeless, I never mentioned half the things you pointed out as weaknesses in my argument. You have little to no grasp of Middle East politics. Even Fatah turned against us um they were never with us. The Middle East is better off as long as we are there working against the regimes in place. We have to make them fight our way. We cannot play their game.

Hizbollah and Hamas have grown but what do you expect. We brought the war to their door step. Iran, Syria and others are used to funding Africa and S. East Asia and sitting back. They did not want us coming into their house
and now we have their full attention.

Notice that the funding in other areas of the world has been cut off. Oh you probably were not even aware of the millions and billions of dollars in all of those countries budgets dedicated to religious war and jihad. It has been that way well forever and long before 9/11. We have created a focal point for this fight instead of fighting it all over the world. It is a positive thing. We are the 300 my friend. I never said SH was Al Queda. I feel no need to connect any of that. The problem is Islam. If we choose to fight particular sects we will be fighting shadows. They will change their names and start up new factions and create more political spin. This is what there Koran teaches them give it a read.

From what I can tell you are for Clinton politics which was one of the most disastrous times in International politics for America (I know you think that notion is amusing) and set the stage for what we have today. Clinton btw was going to enter Irag but he had a scandal and felt it would be viewed as an attempt to hide his scandal. He said so himself. The policy of appeasement just delays the inevitable and strengthens the perceived nature of murders and villains.

Clinton turned a perverted mass murder into a Nobel Prize winner, yeah a great achievement. At least Arafat died, of AIDS, so we no longer have to suffer that mistake. All of Clinton's policies simply put us in bed with the bad guys and strengthened international support for evil. I have never said present policies are the best or do not have issues but we are finally at least dealing with what will be the major issues for our children and grandchildren.

I know you think that this is going to go away and don't worry there are always guys like you in history. Even in WWII there were lots of fools who thought that we should just talk with Hitler and that he had some good points. You my friend represent that faction in America right now. Wake up!!! :salute:
 
#136
#136
Fatah was never with us? Odd that Bush said otherwise and we were even paying them and training them. I guess paying and training is an odd way of NOT being with us.

We have their full attention? You're right. And not in a good way. But I guess bold steps like kidnapping Israeli soldiers, walking right through Beirut boldly, renewing nuclear weapons programs, crossing the Iraqi border, boldly sending weapons to Shiite Iraqis shows they are all shaking in their boots. We have them on the run right?

For what you can tell....well you are wrong. But you're not the only one here assuming wrongly. First of all, my original point was relative to Iraq but you've managed to bring in the rest of the Middle East so I'm game with you. I'm not sure where you get the info to make the assumption that I'm with Clinton on foreign policy. But judging by your comments you think the current policy showing very little gains and far more disasterous effects is better. Not defending Clinton's policies but looking at the current ones, I'm not sure how you can think what's going on now is good.

By all means, turn this into all about Clinton. Since I never brought him up and you did, feel free to insult him. I love how when cornered on a losing battle (no pun intended) it always resorts to attacks on Clinton. But again, keep on attacking him.

I never said this was going away nor did I say we should not counter the terrorists. You are one of the knee-jerk types that thinks just because someone is not drinking the Bush kool aid they're some far left kumbaya Clinton lover. But again, keep on wrongly assuming. And I'm not sure how not being on board with the losing Bush plan is equivalent to coddling Hitler. Where do you get these rediculous assumptions? You're one of the Rumsfeld neo-con faction that thinks we should be invading every nation over there and somehow converting them all to democracies. Somehow this group buys into a disproven argument that by overthrowing regimes l and governments like Saddam that everyone will greet us with roses in the streets and centuries of embedded hatred will just disappear. To date, the policy you defend has not been successful. But yet you think it is working. By all means tell me how this all is working.
 
#137
#137
CSpindizzy said:
Fatah was never with us? Odd that Bush said otherwise and we were even paying them and training them. I guess paying and training is an odd way of NOT being with us.

We have their full attention? You're right. And not in a good way. But I guess bold steps like kidnapping Israeli soldiers, walking right through Beirut boldly, renewing nuclear weapons programs, crossing the Iraqi border, boldly sending weapons to Shiite Iraqis shows they are all shaking in their boots. We have them on the run right?

For what you can tell....well you are wrong. But you're not the only one here assuming wrongly. First of all, my original point was relative to Iraq but you've managed to bring in the rest of the Middle East so I'm game with you. I'm not sure where you get the info to make the assumption that I'm with Clinton on foreign policy. But judging by your comments you think the current policy showing very little gains and far more disasterous effects is better. Not defending Clinton's policies but looking at the current ones, I'm not sure how you can think what's going on now is good.

By all means, turn this into all about Clinton. Since I never brought him up and you did, feel free to insult him. I love how when cornered on a losing battle (no pun intended) it always resorts to attacks on Clinton. But again, keep on attacking him.

I never said this was going away nor did I say we should not counter the terrorists. You are one of the knee-jerk types that thinks just because someone is not drinking the Bush kool aid they're some far left kumbaya Clinton lover. But again, keep on wrongly assuming. And I'm not sure how not being on board with the losing Bush plan is equivalent to coddling Hitler. Where do you get these rediculous assumptions? You're one of the Rumsfeld neo-con faction that thinks we should be invading every nation over there and somehow converting them all to democracies. Somehow this group buys into a disproven argument that by overthrowing regimes l and governments like Saddam that everyone will greet us with roses in the streets and centuries of embedded hatred will just disappear. To date, the policy you defend has not been successful. But yet you think it is working. By all means tell me how this all is working.
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Japan, Korea, S. America, Germany--yeah the policy sucks and has never been successful. A cornered dog takes extreme measures, yes they are shaking in their boots. So do you believe in anything? Or is it better to criticize say yeah it is a problem and do nothing? America has chosen to deal with Fatah over Hamas. Unfortunately, we feel the need to deal with someone instead of sticking to our guns. Ask someone from Fatah to announce they are on our side and then go to their funeral the next day, literally. :eek:k:
 
#138
#138
I love the comparisons of these nations with those of Third World countries with radical religious views counter to western beliefs. If using those examples helps you sleep at night by all means keep going. South America works well. Venezuela and Nicaragua....yep. And Korea. Still divided and the war is not even over. They have nuclear capabilities now. We would not accept Saddam's slight attempt at a program but yet two other nations have excelled far beyond what Saddam even dreamed.

I'm not sure how their numbers growing and attacks even more bold equates to shaking in their boots. COnsidering as you say this is their belief, how can they be shaking in their boots when we are handing them what they essentially want?

Wait a minute. We chose to deal with Fatah instead of 'sticking to our guns'? That sounds a little Clintonian. You attack talks and diplomacy but then you defend it in dealing with the Palestinian question. Quite odd. Something that was completely preposterous in an earlier post is now the best option. Are you buying into that line of thought from CLinton's foreign policy days? I won't tell if you don't.
 
#139
#139
You have lost me made associations that are not there. You are either a journalist or a politician because your post smells like spin and BS. We did occupy Japan they did have radical beliefs and now they do not. You have short term memory it seems. Korea has been a huge success and will continue to be so, they will unify under one democracy in the next 10-20 years count on it. S. America well I was referring to the whole thing we are responsible for its development as a democracy with a few more states to go. I will hold class later and teach you history if you like. Germany, remember the wall which side won and how did we make that happen--do you think their ideas were radical during WWII? Well bossman you sure got me--we have also written the constitutions for many countries not mentioned and the list goes on. Sometimes we succeed quickly sometimes it takes many trials and error but we are not going away and yes we will make every country a democracy before we are done. So the fact other countries have nuclear capabilities means it is our fault we failed and we should quit. I sure wish you were in charge I mean we could just quit and run. We would be more like those smart Frenchmen and the world would be in ruin. I have now dubbed you Sir Frenchy, king of the duck and run with self loathing. :matrix:
 
#140
#140
The other color thing that amuses me is the folks on the history channel and otehr places that have us turning white millenia after our anscestors moved out of Africa and into Europe and beyond. I haven't seen any Northern Europeans of color losing skin pigment because they're in Europe. We are who we are made.

Oh well. The whole Jesus is coming thing...It is arrogant generically for one, or a group, to think they can actually predict the return of Christ. That is wholly impossible, less we assume our wisdom is equal to His. The only sure fire prediction is that He will either come, or you will go one day soon. The end result of either is net/net.
 
#142
#142
I was gonna say that too, but didn't feel like arguing over it.

Nobody has any clue when He will return, but it doesn't mean we can't talk about it.
 
#143
#143
Jewbaccah said:
You have lost me made associations that are not there. You are either a journalist or a politician because your post smells like spin and BS. We did occupy Japan they did have radical beliefs and now they do not. You have short term memory it seems. Korea has been a huge success and will continue to be so, they will unify under one democracy in the next 10-20 years count on it. S. America well I was referring to the whole thing we are responsible for its development as a democracy with a few more states to go. I will hold class later and teach you history if you like. Germany, remember the wall which side won and how did we make that happen--do you think their ideas were radical during WWII? Well bossman you sure got me--we have also written the constitutions for many countries not mentioned and the list goes on. Sometimes we succeed quickly sometimes it takes many trials and error but we are not going away and yes we will make every country a democracy before we are done. So the fact other countries have nuclear capabilities means it is our fault we failed and we should quit. I sure wish you were in charge I mean we could just quit and run. We would be more like those smart Frenchmen and the world would be in ruin. I have now dubbed you Sir Frenchy, king of the duck and run with self loathing. :matrix:
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And you are just in denial of facts. Japan was much more modernized and less radical than Iraq is now. Add to the fact it is a single nation with one nationality that defeat on the battlefield with a national army is what crushed their spirit. Iraq and the Middle East is in no way close to comparison. And Korea is success? Are you out of your mind? It is still a war zone. It is still considered a state of war. They have built and even proliferated WMD technology to other nations. Over a million of their people have died thanks to that regime. We keep placating them and dragging their survival out but yet we're 'winning'? South America is a continent and composed of many nations. If you think they're all democracies and well off you need to take a trip down there some time. I guess you'll tell me we're winning the drug war there as well.

What nations have we written constitutions for? How was it done? And how are they today?

I see you have a lack of capaibility of comprehension. I said in no way have I advocated appeasement but yet you keep inventing what I said. I don't know where you went to school but you clearly missed the reading and comprehension part.

And I am still waiting for you to tell me how we're winning and Iraq is worth it in the Middle East. I've asked that several times but as usual you're ducking and running from that. I also see you avoided admitting your flip flop on war versus diplomacy. One minute we need to invade the Middle East and the next minute you're saying we need to talk to the lesser of the evils. Which is it? Coddle or kill? Simple question....but I look forward to the avoidance of the answer.
 
#144
#144
I coddled nothing. I did not flip flop you only wish it to be so. You need a real history lesson. Japan not radical? Technology does not translate to some sort of sound philosophy or culture. A practice of lining up women of other races and raping them about thirteen times a day, killing the males, and generally believing your race's destiny is to dominate and rule the world is radical.

Sorry, my breath is waisted you have to adjust your whole conception of how the west was won. Your beliefs are based on false assumptions and not reality. S. Korea has a thriving culture of wonderful people. I am sorry us dragging out their existence is so burdensome but preserving life is priceless and repays itself. Yes, we still have to protect them but N. Korea is at its ends talks and hope has already sprung for unification. N. Korea's leader now hides from his own people fearing assassination because he knows his time is near done. We are all in a state of war not just Iraq. If a radical group is in charge and murdering innocent people and disrupting global economies, because we hide it is not a success. War is our reality it has been central to my discussion. You missed that boat by your own selective reading comprehension. BTW your attack on my comprehension abilities is amusing to me and those who have taken a class with me or know me would be rolling.

Because there is a cost does not mean it is a failure. Everything has a cost it is just you are not willing to pay it. Immediate gratification does not exist in world politics something you crave. You focus on small parts that help rationalize your cowardice and selfishness. And everyone who opposes is a fool. If your philosophy was the norm throughout history we would all be doomed. I have many faults but you sir are a Frenchy to the bone, you have bones right? I am sure you will say I did not respond to X or Z but in reality I have there is no response that will satisfy you. Hide Frenchy and maybe they will not find you but what about your children or your children's children. Their fate is far more important than my own and that is where we differ. :victory:
 
#145
#145
Well when you grasp reality, fact, and history let me know. I think actual events in the world are more than enough to prove my point. I see you cannot answer a simple question on what is so glorious with our mission in Iraq. Perhaps deep down you see the truth but pride just refuses to allow you to admit to it.

As for your flip flop, I will point out the obvious one more time. You claim the need to take the war to these groups but yet you then say we the US needs to work with Fatah because it is our best bet. One minute you want direct confrontation with these groups and decry diplomacy but then say that we are better off by using diplomacy with Fatah. So I guess that makes you a flip flopping Frenchy using your terms. It's great to become that you insult so much is it not?

Again, Taliban - greater position today than pre-9/11 and same with Al Qaeda. Religious and cultural conflict MUCH greater in Iraq than before our invasion. Iraq's infrastructure is the same if not worse in most areas of the country since we invaded. Lebanon is controlled by Hizbollah. Radicals in Egypt have more power in government than before. Hizbollah still has a prisoner Israel invaded to retrieve. And THAT invasion - well we won't go there. Pakistan is on the verge of imploding to the point Musharraf is begging a former corrupt Prime Minister to share power with. I am happy to go on and on. I was happy to limit this to Iraq since clearly I'm still waiting on your listed benefits there since we've invaded. But if you want to increase this I'd be more than happy to oblige.
 
#146
#146
Jewbaccah said:
Japan, Korea, S. America, Germany--yeah the policy sucks and has never been successful. A cornered dog takes extreme measures, yes they are shaking in their boots. So do you believe in anything? Or is it better to criticize say yeah it is a problem and do nothing? America has chosen to deal with Fatah over Hamas. Unfortunately, we feel the need to deal with someone instead of sticking to our guns. Ask someone from Fatah to announce they are on our side and then go to their funeral the next day, literally. :eek:k:
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Just one example of how you keep saying I said something I never said. You are a jellyfish Frenchy. I said we should not deal with Fatah. Thus the use of the word Unfortunately. Would you like a Webster's definition. And you attacked my reading comp. I know you already knew this but you have essentially gone as far as to create imaginary points that I never made because you simply have no real retort. It is OK Frenchy I know you are scared. And for all readers please do not listen to this guy most of what he just said regarding Taliban or anything involving factual data is a lie that he just made up because he has nothing better to say. So the Taliban is back in control in Afghanistan? Wow, if we were debating and had a fact checker you would be booed of the stage.:victory:
 
#147
#147
Jewbaccah said:
And for all readers please do not listen to this guy most of what he just said regarding Taliban or anything involving factual data is a lie that he just made up because he has nothing better to say. So the Taliban is back in control in Afghanistan? Wow, if we were debating and had a fact checker you would be booed of the stage.:victory:
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Oh you're funny. Did I say they were back in control of Afghanistan? Again, YOU invent things I've said. Oh the list grows on your creativity. Fact checker? How about one for you? Or better yet, how about an "answer simple questions checker'? Or just back up your points checker?

Keep dodging the question. Run, hide, avoid, dodge. Sooner or later you will have to answer the question or better yet prove what you say. Call me names and deflect. You're proving my point quite clearly. You wouldn't even make it to the stage.
 
#148
#148
This sums it up...

mission_accomplished.jpg
 
#149
#149
CSpindizzy said:
Oh you're funny. Did I say they were back in control of Afghanistan? Again, YOU invent things I've said. Oh the list grows on your creativity. Fact checker? How about one for you? Or better yet, how about an "answer simple questions checker'? Or just back up your points checker?

Keep dodging the question. Run, hide, avoid, dodge. Sooner or later you will have to answer the question or better yet prove what you say. Call me names and deflect. You're proving my point quite clearly. You wouldn't even make it to the stage.
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If the Taliban is not in control how are they in a better position like you said? Sounds like a flip-flop. You got caught dude. You probably do this on this site all the time but no one has ever known you are inventing your history and facts.
 
#150
#150
Jewbaccah said:
If the Taliban is not in control how are they in a better position like you said? Sounds like a flip-flop. You got caught dude. You probably do this on this site all the time but no one has ever known you are inventing your history and facts.
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Better trained, experienced, armed, organized, and growing in recruits on a daily basis. Despite what you think a group does not need to be in control of a government to have power. Read up on history. Plenty of examples of this. Study insurgencies. A good example in Afghanistan? USSR's invasion. You see the Mujaheddin did not have a government. But yet they managed to crush a massive invasion of conventional means. Another example...Hizbollah. Odd how a group of guerillas managed to push out probably the world's best military and still keep the bargaining chip Israel swore to reclaim.

Again, fact, reality, or whatever one wants to call it overrules your fantasy world. But keep trying. One day you might catch on.

How's that answer on Iraq coming? Still looking for fact to back up your claim? I'll give you more time if need be. But don't take too long. Claims with no fact to back them up don't take that long do they?
 
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