California Secession

#26
#26
Grand Vol said:
You know, I get really ****ing tired of your BS posts. You start on one position, get backed into a corner and all the sudden you start in with "WTF, I never said that." And the only reason you say that is because you have zero arguments left to give.

You straight up said you'd support that because of "limited government." Not even addressing how ****ing bad Cali is to begin with without federal intervention.

Just ****ing stop.
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You have to know how full of **** you are, right?
 
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#27
#27
n_huffhines said:
You have to know how full of **** you are, right?
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I'm full of ****? You're the one that straight stops even having any conversation once you're backed into a corner.

"Oh, I'd move to California! It's going to have less Federal Intervention than what we have! There's not going to be any war! Yippee!"

That's exactly what you are saying.
 
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#28
#28
Grand Vol said:
I'm full of ****? You're the one that straight stops even having any conversation once you're backed into a corner.

"Oh, I'd move to California! It's going to have less Federal Intervention than what we have! There's not going to be any war! Yippee!"

That's exactly what you are saying.
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I said I would "probably" move there. If they are suspending rights like you concluded out of nowhere, with no substantiation, I would rethink that.

IDK what corner you think you have me backed into. You just make up conclusions and when I have no idea how you arrived there, I can't comment. It's weird, man. It's like you're having part of the conversation in your head.
 
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#29
#29
Grand Vol said:
You know, I get really ****ing tired of your BS posts. You start on one position, get backed into a corner and all the sudden you start in with "WTF, I never said that." And the only reason you say that is because you have zero arguments left to give.

You straight up said you'd support that because of "limited government." Not even addressing how ****ing bad Cali is to begin with without federal intervention.

Just ****ing stop.
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California pays into the fed system more than it takes last I saw.
 
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#30
#30
n_huffhines said:
I said I would "probably" move there. If they are suspending rights like you concluded out of nowhere, with no substantiation, I would rethink that.

IDK what corner you think you have me backed into. You just make up conclusions and when I have no idea how you arrived there, I can't comment. It's weird, man. It's like you're having part of the conversation in your head.
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WTF do you mean "if they are suspending" rights? WTF do you think they are doing currently and have been doing for the past 30 years?

You're off in your own planet sometimes. Don't even try to accuse me of the same.
 
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#31
#31
Grand Vol said:
WTF do you mean "if they are suspending" rights? WTF do you think they are doing currently and have been doing for the past 30 years?

You're off in your own planet sometimes. Don't even try to accuse me of the same.
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What do I mean? I mean whatever you are talking about with this comment.

Grand Vol said:
And that excuses the State Government taking away the basic rights of the citizens?
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You are the one who brought it up. I don't know what you're talking about. I have expressed this. I still don't know because you haven't clarified...and you ask me what I mean? I mean whatever you meant.

What basic rights are they taking away that distinguishes them from other states and the federal government? I can't get on the same page as you until you clarify.
 
#34
#34
n_huffhines said:
Is that part of this plan? I've heard of them wanting to divide into 5 states, but didn't know that it had anything to do with secession.
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I'm not sure, and it may have been 5. I have family and friends out there who had mentioned it last year. Probably different than this.
 
#35
#35
#36
#36
hndog609 said:
I've not tried to vet this information but at least on here CA, while not at the bottom is closer to the bottom than the top. Was a bit surprised to see TN at #2.

Total State Debt: ranked from lowest debtor state (#1) to highest debtor state (#50) : The States Project

This one makes CA look even worse.

Ranking the States by Fiscal Condition | Mercatus
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with what has come out of Louisiana recently (*possible* shut down colleges) i am surprised they are in the 30s and not higher (40s)
 
#37
#37
I assume Homeland Security considers Yes California to be a threat and likewise SPLC considers them a hate group - ya know because secessionists are targets...
 
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#38
#38
Probably already posted but California is currently the least free state (well in a battle for last with New York).

Since all states are subject to the same Federal rule I don't see how removing the Fed part (in response to Huff) would result in the state being freer.

California is least free because it has decided to be even more restrictive than the minimum amount (the Fed part).

Freedom in the 50 States 2013 | Overall Freedom | Mercatus Center
 
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#39
#39
volinbham said:
Probably already posted but California is currently the least free state (well in a battle for last with New York).

Since all states are subject to the same Federal rule I don't see how removing the Fed part (in response to Huff) would result in the state being freer.

California is least free because it has decided to be even more restrictive than the minimum amount (the Fed part).

Freedom in the 50 States 2013 | Overall Freedom | Mercatus Center
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That's not actually what I said. I don't think I mentioned freedom. I was talking about budgets and government size. Yeah, smaller governments can be authoritarian. That being said, do I believe CA would be more authoritarian than the US government? It's possible, but probably not. When you consider the draft and everything (not sure if CA would have a draft, but it's doubtful). If CA doesn't start with a bill of rights, I would be very cautious, but I'm almost certain that would be part of it.
 
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#40
#40
Just like the dumbassery in Quebec every few years. They want to secede and become their own "nation", but they also want to receive tax dollars from the rest of Canada (or the other 56 states in California's case), because being your own separate country is hard.
 
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#41
#41
n_huffhines said:
That's not actually what I said. I don't think I mentioned freedom. I was talking about budgets and government size. Yeah, smaller governments can be authoritarian. That being said, do I believe CA would be more authoritarian than the US government? It's possible, but probably not. When you consider the draft and everything (not sure if CA would have a draft, but it's doubtful). If CA doesn't start with a bill of rights, I would be very cautious, but I'm almost certain that would be part of it.
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What is government size if not an indicator of government involvement in people's lives.

California is already more authoritarian than the US government.

Given your strong libertarian leanings and favoring of AnCap I find it really odd you think an independent California would be a better fit for you than any number of existing states operating within the union.

Might as well say Sweden is a better fit because it's smaller budget wise and isn't going to war.
 
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#42
#42
volinbham said:
What is government size if not an indicator of government involvement in people's lives.
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Well, I think financial freedom is a part of the equation.

California is already more authoritarian than the US government.
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Not sure how you arrive at this, but say it's true...is CA more authoritarian than Arizona + the Federal government? I don't think they are. You have a whole 'nother level of big government. A federal government that stifles freedoms in tons of ways that CA doesn't. PATRIOT Act, war on drugs, etc.

Given your strong libertarian leanings and favoring of AnCap I find it really odd you think an independent California would be a better fit for you than any number of existing states operating within the union.

Might as well say Sweden is a better fit because it's smaller budget wise and isn't going to war.
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It may be? War and budgets are big issues to me. Hi. My name is Huff. Have we met?
 
#43
#43
Yep, California sounds like it's perfectly on the right track...

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...reedoms-calls-ban-encrypted-cell-phones.shtml

CALIFORNIA SB 277 Forced Vaccination EVERY CHILD in California - California Coalition For Vaccine Choice

Freedom in the 50 States 2013 | California Overall Freedom | Mercatus Center

California’s new gun law—21 days without notice

The campaign before the campaign: Gubernatorial hopeful Gavin Newsom launches gun-control push - LA Times

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/02/2...-claim-its-govt-waste-to-save-tiny-smelt.html

http://www.scpr.org/programs/airtal...lifornias-ambitious-clean-energy-goals-scale/

And none of these are Federal mandates. Some have a basis there, but California goes to extremes in tightening and executing them. Speaking of executions...

http://www.complex.com/life/2016/02/police-shootings-southern-california-no-prosecutions

http://www.ibtimes.com/police-bruta...officers-deleted-video-evidence-fatal-2279481

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/10/us/california-san-bernardino-police-beating/

Yeah, that's obviously a place I want to move to.
 
#44
#44
n_huffhines said:
Well, I think financial freedom is a part of the equation.



Not sure how you arrive at this, but say it's true...is CA more authoritarian than Arizona + the Federal government? I don't think they are. You have a whole 'nother level of big government. A federal government that stifles freedoms in tons of ways that CA doesn't. PATRIOT Act, war on drugs, etc.



It may be? War and budgets are big issues to me. Hi. My name is Huff. Have we met?
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I think you are making a major leap of faith that removing the Federal part isn't replaced by Cali doing the same.

War and budget sure but I also know how much you value individual liberty, private property rights, etc.

Take a look at how California fairs relative to other states on economic, property, personal and regulatory freedom - it's at the bottom.

At best you get the military portion greatly reduced but budget is relative to per capita and Cali stinks in that one too.
 
#45
#45
volinbham said:
I think you are making a major leap of faith that removing the Federal part isn't replaced by Cali doing the same.
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I am sure in this hypothetical nation of CA they would have a national government that replaces ours in some ways, but I cannot imagine it would be nearly as invasive or large. It seems like it would take a long time to build something that big.

That being said, i think you are misunderstanding my position...I am saying with entire confidence that this hypothetical nation of CA faces easier budgetary solutions than the United States government.

Now when we get into other conversations about who would have more freedom, I don't have the same kind of confidence. Without a proposed constitution or even knowing what the driving forces for secession would be, I can't confidently answer that question one way or another.
 
#46
#46
volinbham said:
War and budget sure but I also know how much you value individual liberty, private property rights, etc.
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This is a question of individual liberty. The government is forcibly taking money from me and using it to kill people around the world.
 
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#47
#47
n_huffhines said:
I am sure in this hypothetical nation of CA they would have a national government that replaces ours in some ways, but I cannot imagine it would be nearly as invasive or large. It seems like it would take a long time to build something that big.

That being said, i think you are misunderstanding my position...I am saying with entire confidence that this hypothetical nation of CA faces easier budgetary solutions than the United States government.

Now when we get into other conversations about who would have more freedom, I don't have the same kind of confidence. Without a proposed constitution or even knowing what the driving forces for secession would be, I can't confidently answer that question one way or another.
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Their state government is already more invasive and controlling than the federal government requires. As far as fiscal discipline, they have 4 or 5 municipalities that have or are in danger of filing bankruptcy, their state pension is on life support right now.
 
#48
#48
hog88 said:
As far as fiscal discipline, they have 4 or 5 municipalities that have or are in danger of filing bankruptcy, their state pension is on life support right now.
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Yeah, but their citizens are currently paying state and federal taxes. If CA became its own nation, they can increase taxes substantially and solve their budget problems very quickly. Their citizens could be paying a lot less in taxes than US citizens, and still solve those problems quickly.
 
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#50
#50
Would Californians need a passport to go to Vegas? The People's Democratic Republic of California. Has a certain ring to it, no?
 
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