Capitalism and Socialism

#1

dduncan4163

Have at it Hoss
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#1
There has been a idelogical war going on in this country for some time now. The war of Capitalism vs Socialism.

The Far Left sees Capitalism as a system that consolidates money and power to a select few without giving the majority of society a far chance at wealth and success.

The Far Right sees Socialism as a system that leads to the destruction of individual wealth for the greater good of the society.

Lets go over the Pros and Cons of both and find out if we are a Capitalist society, or a Socialist society, or Both.




Capitalism is an economic system in which wealth and the ability to produce wealth are privately owned (rather than owned and controlled by the government). The distinguishing feature of capitalism is that each individual in a society owns his or her labor and therefore is allowed to sell the use of it to an employer. They are in turn paid a wage and are free to spend that wage as they see fit. Laissez-faire (French for, "Leave to do (by itself)") is the purest form of capitalism, in which the government does not get involved in any aspect of the economy or the competitive process to produce wealth. The supply and demand of what customers choose to do with their money controls what businesses succeed and fail and provides for all of a society’s needs.

The up side of capitalism is that there is the potential for any member in a capitalist society to give of his or her labor to sell a product or service (or work for a company selling a product or service) that will in turn produce a large amount of personal wealth. Again, in a purely capitalist economy this citizen would not have to pay any taxes and there would be virtually no need for a government as private industries would satisfy all needs of the people and provide all products and services for a functioning society.

The down side of capitalism is that, A) It puts a great deal of power in the hands of those citizens most capable of producing wealth. For example, private companies would compete in building, training, and arming a standing military to defend a nation, with the potential for a nation to have multiple militaries run by multiple companies, all of which would be completely unregulated by a governing body and free to defend the nation as they see fit. B) Pure capitalism does not account for the social aspects of a nation that do not make a profit. For example, there is no demand for a business to take care of the mentally and physically disabled and those citizens impaired in some facet which prevents him or her from being able to work and thus unable to offer money for his or her care. C) Pure capitalism also allows individuals to pass wealth freely from generation to generation within one’s own family creating large class divides within a society as the strongest and most capable citizens grow stronger and wealthier and the least capable citizens have less and less opportunities to gain wealth. D) It does not account for racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia (dislike or fear of someone different than oneself) or other social barriers that might make for unfair competition in the pursuit of wealth.

Booms and Busts: In the last one hundred years of United States history whenever a government administration has deregulated the economy in an attempt to move it toward a laissez-faire capitalist approach, an enormous bust in the economy was soon to follow. In the 1920s Calvin Coolridge was a small government capitalist who deregulated much of the economy and cut many government programs. The Great Depression followed eight months after he left office. In an uncanny replay of history George W. Bush continuously deregulated the economy during his eight years in office, and ended up nationalizing several failed lending institutions within his final months in office. The second largest recession in U.S. history followed. Capitalist proponents suggest that busts are a natural part of a free market economy and have always been followed by booms. While this is true that free market economies have natural booms and busts, such a method creates an incredibly unstable society for the poor and middle classes, while the upper classes tend to accumulate enough wealth to buffer themselves against these busts and move comfortably into the next economic boom—facilitating further the isolation of wealth as discussed above.

How Democracy Effects Capitalism: Because pure capitalism is likely to create isolated wealth in the hands of the most capable, the middle and lower classes of democratic societies are likely to vote for leaders who will regulate the economy in such a way so that they will continue to have their basic needs met by socially funded systems during difficult times and not be left to potentially starve or die without work, shelter, food, or healthcare. At least this has been the trend in other democratic societies with mixed economies. For unclear reasons, over the last thirty years middle and lower class Americans have not voted for greater social systems despite the fact that they would be paid for by higher taxation on the wealth that has been isolated in the upper 1% of American wealth holders.
Hypotheses for this occurrence include the stronghold of religious culture and puritan work ethic that has been consistent in American history linked to the belief that the upper 1% did not accumulate wealth because of a deregulated capitalist economic system but rather “out worked” the competition to achieve their wealth. Thus, taxing the wealthy more to pay for more social benefits would not be considered balancing the competitive playing field but rather stealing from the hard workers of society. Another theory is that the upper 1% owns much of the industry in America and if they are taxed too highly they may take their businesses somewhere else, leaving the country with less overall wealth (even though it is isolated wealth and not being used for public services). A third theory is that lower and middle class citizens believe they will one day be wealthy too and when they are, they would like to not pay higher taxes for services that take care of the poor. Finally, it could be that the conservative party has combined religious and family value rhetoric into their political platform in the time period from 1980 to present day and have won the support of the middle and lower classes by appealing to their religious worldviews (despite the separation of church and state that prevents politicians from legislating or enforcing religious ideology in government). Whatever the reason, it is an anomaly amongst industrialized nations that America has the most capitalist democratic society in the world today. It is still a mixed economy and long term trends suggest it to be moving toward a greater balance in socialism and capitalism, though at present day the United States.






Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equality for all individuals, with a fair or egalitarian (equal for all people) method of compensation.

There is no concrete method to a socialist economy. It is an idea that came out of the late 19th century in which intellectuals and working class citizens began to see capitalism as unfairly concentrating power and wealth in the hands of a small segment of society who controlled the capital and did not offer fair opportunities for everyone in the society. Socialist proponents disagree on the degree to which the government should control the economy of a nation, and over what services should be provided by the state (and paid for through taxation of the people) and what should be the responsibility of the people. What they agree on is that the government must be involved in some facets of the economy in order to make a society fair and balanced in the opportunities it provides to produce wealth, meet the needs of its citizenry, and avoid the development of large class divides that could lead to social upheaval within a society.

The up side to socialism is that it theoretically fosters a communal effort amongst the members of a society to take care of the basic needs of all members in a society from the moment they are born until they pass away. This economic system takes into account, or leaves opportunity to take into account, such social problems as racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia (fear of people unlike one’s self) and other social barriers that create an unfair competition for the production of wealth. It also asserts that younger members of society as well as elderly members and members suffering from physical and mental ailments are relatively incapable of competing for the production of wealth and must be taken care of by the whole of society. Other aspects of society that are unlikely to produce financial wealth such as public health and environmental threat monitoring, academic research, creation of cures, education, healthcare for low-income members of society, environmental conservation and ecosystem protection practices, care of wild and domesticated animals, law enforcement, fire department, military, postal services, creation of arts and literature, etc. can be considered in a socialist economic system and provided funding for by the state through taxation of the people.

The down side to socialism is that, in nations without free and democratic elections, it can easily lend itself to tyranny (or complete governmental control of a society). This was the case in Stalinist Soviet Union in the early 20th century. In such a situation, whoever seizes control of the government and the military of a nation can, by force, require members of society to work or not work as the government sees fit. This can stifle industry, limit individual’s potential for the production of wealth, and ultimately harm the nation economically if poorly executed. It also takes away the freedom of choice from the members of society to decide for themselves how long they will work and how much wealth they will produce for themselves. For example, the government could theoretically decide that a sixty-hour work week would produce greater wealth for society and instate mandatory sixty-hour work weeks with 100% taxation. Thus, all members of a nation would be required to work the required amount of time in a field decided by the government and receive in return only the products and services the government deems worthy of ownership by the individual. This is the much feared bread-lines that are often discussed when socialism is brought up in America.

How Democracy Effects Socialism: In a society with free and democratically held elections the above scenario literally cannot take place against the will of the people. Even if a president attempted to instate such practices and was able to convince an elected congress to agree with him or her, a nation with a democratic electoral system such as the United States would still be able to change the members of congress every two years and the presidential leader every four years. Thus, socialism in the form as it was seen in Stalinist Soviet Union cannot exist in conjunction with democracy, only with tyranny. In the same way, capitalism also cannot exist in its purest form and allow the accumulation of wealth to exist only amongst the most capable members of society. As wealth begins to accumulate amongst an isolated group in a democratic society, the members of society can choose to elect representatives that will change taxation and legislation to provide for more social products and services to meet the needs of the whole of society and take away opportunities for private industries to produce more wealth amongst an isolated group. Therefore, a mixed economy is what has been found to work best, and is the type of economic system that has existed in the United States since its beginning days.


Socialism has become a naughty word in America, but how many people actually know what this political ideology entails? Many confuse it with communism, which is Karl Marx’s political ideology for a classless, stateless, and democratic society free of oppression. Others recall Joseph Stalin’s iron-fisted tyrannical government in the Soviet Union during World War II era, in which he used government to rule nearly every facet of life in the country. What many don’t realize is that the United States, as well as most industrialized nations of the world, functions under a mixed economy, meaning some aspects of capitalism and some of socialism.

The Fact is we are a mixed economy in America as well as most of the free world.

In my opinion America has come up with the perfect blend of the two political systems.
 
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#5
#5
screw socialism and it's elimination of the individual in favor of the collective.
 
#6
#6
That was an awfully short section on the downsides of socialism relative to the downsides of capitalism.

Let me correct a few statements:

Capitalism doesn't preclude taking care of those that need help, the environment, etc. People are free to do so if they like and in fact, capitalism can foster these actions IF society "values" them. Look at how much profit companies are making due to "greenies". Companies like Method are cashing in on people's environmental concerns. As a result, Capitalism is highly democratic in that individuals decide what is valued by putting their money where their mouths are.

You also completely shorted four glaring weaknesses of socialism:

1. government choosing winners and losers. As government controls more and more of the production and distribution of goods and services, they exert more power over the lives of individuals. As such, government claims a greater interest in maintaining power and rewarding those that keep them there. In addition, the government has a poor record relative to capitalism in picking investments that merit risk capital.

2. stifling of innovation/risk taking. Perhaps the greatest engine in capitalism is the impact it has on innovation. Because great rewards can be had, great risks are endured. Socialism limits the upside thus hampering innovation.

3. dependence. As the government becomes owner and provider, many lose their individual will. There was an interesting article in the WSJ comparing the unemployed in Germany to those in the US. The gist was that due to the massive govt safety net, the German example maintained his lifestyle (including a foreign vacation), all benefits, etc. Until recently, unemployment benefits in Germany were unlimited (time wise) and they realized the need to change that since people had no incentive to go back to work. In contrast, the American car worker changed his lifestyle (reduced consumption) and is going to school to improve his career options.

4. Free-rider problem. As the government becomes the provider, more and more people are "encouraged" to let someone else take care of them. As a result, the productive class of the citizenry shrinks and more must be extracted from them to continue the level of government provided goodies.
 
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#7
#7
That was an awfully short section on the downsides of socialism relative to the downsides of capitalism.

Let me correct a few statements:

Capitalism doesn't preclude taking care of those that need help, the environment, etc. People are free to do so if they like and in fact, capitalism can foster these actions IF society "values" them. Look at how much profit companies are making due to "greenies". Companies like Method are cashing in on people's environmental concerns. As a result, Capitalism is highly democratic in that individuals decide what is valued by putting their money where their mouths are.

You also completely shorted four glaring weaknesses of socialism:

1. government choosing winners and losers. As government controls more and more of the production and distribution of goods and services, they exert more power over the lives of individuals. As such, government claims a greater interest in maintaining power and rewarding those that keep them there. In addition, the government has a poor record relative to capitalism in picking investments that merit risk capital.

2. stifling of innovation/risk taking. Perhaps the greatest engine in capitalism is the impact it has on innovation. Because great rewards can be had, great risks are endured. Socialism limits the upside thus hampering innovation.

3. dependence. As the government becomes owner and provider, many lose their individual will. There was an interesting article in the WSJ comparing the unemployed in Germany to those in the US. The gist was that due to the massive govt safety net, the German example maintained his lifestyle (including a foreign vacation), all benefits, etc. Until recently, unemployment benefits in Germany were unlimited (time wise) and they realized the need to change that since people had no incentive to go back to work. In contrast, the American car worker changed his lifestyle (reduced consumption) and is going to school to improve his career options.

4. Free-rider problem. As the government becomes the provider, more and more people are "encouraged" to let someone else take care of them. As a result, the productive class of the citizenry shrinks and more must be extracted from them to continue the level of government provided goodies.

I see your point but let me make this clear. I am in no way saying that Socialism is superior to Capitalism.

I personally think Capitalism is one of the main reasons America is a powerful and great land however there are many people on here that want to completely demonize Socialism as a purely destructive political view when it is not.

Civil Service Retirement Systems
Federal Employee Retirement Systems
Railroad Retirement System
Public Housing
Rental Vouchers & Certificates
Section 8 Housing Vouchers
Shelter Plus Care
Single Room Occupancy
Low Income Home Energy Assistance
Social Security (OASDI)
Unemployment Insurance
Temporary Disability Insurance
Medicare
Medicaid
Medicare Prescription Drug Plan
Supplemental Security Income
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families
Food Stamp Program
Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC)
National School Lunch Program
School Breakfast Program
United States Department of Agriculture (USDA)
Federal Communications Commission (FCC)
Food and Drug Administration (FDA)
United States Postal Service

Those are all socialist programs. Socialism plays a vital role in the growth and stability of American society.
 
#8
#8
Social Security is a ponzi scheme and with the exception of the US Postal Service, none of those are specified by Article 1 Section 8 as legitimate expenditures of federal tax dollars.
 
#9
#9
You know I just realized I am getting old.

Here I am online talking politics at 9:30 on a Friday night.

Hell I am even looking for my Icy Hot because I messed up my back cutting timber today. That damn Chainsaw seems to get a little heavier everyday.

I need me some Percocet or Vodka right now.
 
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#10
#10
pay for it yourself and you can have all the medicare you need

oh, wait, that's not how welfare works...
 
#12
#12
I bet you are a blast at Thanksgiving.

A little Bitter are you?

not bitter at all, I'd just like for those who assert a right to something to have to assert some responsibility every once in a while.
 
#13
#13
pay for it yourself and you can have all the medicare you need

oh, wait, that's not how welfare works...

Oh yeah I pay my own medical bills.

I also dont mind that my taxes help people that are less fortunate than me. I don't like people that take advantage of the system but most who get Government assistance actually need it.

I know the day might come that I might find myself in a food stamp or unemployment line. So I dont judge others who are there now.
 
#14
#14
not bitter at all, I'd just like for those who assert a right to something to have to assert some responsibility every once in a while.

I have no disagreement with that. I firmly believe in personal responability. Those that can pull their own weight should.

I also believe that we are our brothers keeper and we have a moral obligation to help those who cant help themselves.
 
#15
#15
I have no disagreement with that. I firmly believe in personal responability. Those that can pull their own weight should.

I also believe that we are our brothers keeper and we have a moral obligation to help those who cant help themselves.

I do too. Our difference lies in that I don't view the government as the most efficient or compassionate way of helping others. This nation got on just fine before the federal government under FDR decided that it could be all things for all people.
 
#16
#16
I do too. Our difference lies in that I don't view the government as the most efficient or compassionate way of helping others. This nation got on just fine before the federal government under FDR decided that it could be all things for all people.

I respect your point. I guess we will just agree to disagree.
 
#17
#17
I see your point but let me make this clear. I am in no way saying that Socialism is superior to Capitalism.

I personally think Capitalism is one of the main reasons America is a powerful and great land however there are many people on here that want to completely demonize Socialism as a purely destructive political view when it is not.

Civil Service Retirement Systems
Federal Employee Retirement Systems
Railroad Retirement System
Public Housing
Rental Vouchers & Certificates
Section 8 Housing Vouchers
Shelter Plus Care
Single Room Occupancy
Low Income Home Energy Assistance
Social Security (OASDI)
Unemployment Insurance
Temporary Disability Insurance
Medicare
Medicaid
Medicare Prescription Drug Plan
Supplemental Security Income
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families
Food Stamp Program
Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC)
National School Lunch Program
School Breakfast Program
United States Department of Agriculture (USDA)
Federal Communications Commission (FCC)
Food and Drug Administration (FDA)
United States Postal Service

Those are all socialist programs. Socialism plays a vital role in the growth and stability of American society.

Not sure why you include entities such as the FCC or FDA - regulatory agencies are not akin to socialism.

I think there is also a distinction between safety net programs (e.g. welfare, foodstamps, etc.) and what we see with government ownership stakes in banks, auto industries etc. The concern you here from the right is the unprecedented move of government to insert itself into ownership decisions of individual private enterprises. This is socialistic. A regulatory agency that sets rules for any private enterprise that chooses to participate in the regulated industry is not socialistic per se.
 
#18
#18
Not sure why you include entities such as the FCC or FDA - regulatory agencies are not akin to socialism.

I think there is also a distinction between safety net programs (e.g. welfare, foodstamps, etc.) and what we see with government ownership stakes in banks, auto industries etc. The concern you here from the right is the unprecedented move of government to insert itself into ownership decisions of individual private enterprises. This is socialistic. A regulatory agency that sets rules for any private enterprise that chooses to participate in the regulated industry is not socialistic per se.

I think we are own two different wavelengths here. We are arguing different points.

Those programs I listed above are by definition Socialistic programs. They are government ran programs that use Tax dollars to benefit the public welfare.

I do understand and completly agree with the point that the government shouldnt take over private industry's no matter their financial condition. I dont believe in the concept that a company is too big to fail. I think Bush and Obama messed up big time in the Bank and Auto Bailouts.

The point I was trying to make is that a lot of Right Wingers have tried to make the word Socialism evil, and dirty when it isnt. I know a lot of people that would be in Dire Straights right now without Medicare, and Social Security.

Socialism can lead to Communisim just like Capitalism can lead to Oligarchy or Anarchy. No form of goverment is perfect and any ideology can be radicalized. The simple truth is is that there is no such thing as a perfect form of government. There will always be men that will abuse their power no matter what system we have.

Socialism has its place in this Democracy just like Capitalism does.
 
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#20
#20
I think we are own two different wavelengths here. We are arguing different points.

Those programs I listed above are by definition Socialistic programs. They are government ran programs that use Tax dollars to benefit the public welfare.

I do understand and completly agree with the point that the government shouldnt take over private industry's no matter their financial condition. I dont believe in the concept that a company is too big to fail. I think Bush and Obama messed up big time in the Bank and Auto Bailouts.

The point I was trying to make is that a lot of Right Wingers have tried to make the word Socialism evil, and dirty when it isnt. I know a lot of people that would be in Dire Straights right now without Medicare, and Social Security.

Socialism can lead to Communisim just like Capitalism can lead to Oligarchy or Anarchy. No form of goverment is perfect and any ideology can be radicalized. The simple truth is is that there is no such thing as a perfect form of government. There will always be men that will abuse their power no matter what system we have.

Socialism has its place in this Democracy just like Capitalism does.

Socialism isn't any of the garbage you listed. Socialism is about the government owning lens of production in a country and dictating distribution of of capital and the output. We are, as a nation, bent on avoiding it.

All of your propaganda aside, Socialism has proven a very poor solution for the human spirit. FDR ushered in our current socialistic programs. Wonder how we survived until then?
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#21
#21
Screw socialism!

Why do peole loath freedom?

I will never understand it...............?????????????????
 
#22
#22
I have no disagreement with that. I firmly believe in personal responability. Those that can pull their own weight should.

I also believe that we are our brothers keeper and we have a moral obligation to help those who cant help themselves.

Where in the constitution does it say anything about a "moral obligation to help those that can't help themselves?"

If policy like that is to be real it sould be the state gov'ts that enact them.

There have always been poor and those that "can't help themselves". They were cared for prior the the Feds coming up with welfare. Private charities and extended family helped them out. By having government run policies that do the work that others once did we breed a class of people that become dependent on these policies and grown content with them.

Anytime you have someone that works for a living and have a faceless beaurocrat take his money only to give it to someone that supposedly "can't help themself" you breed resentment for the government and the person that got your money.

I think that the legitimate cases of someone that can't help themself is a tiny fraction of those getting federal aid.
 
#23
#23
Capitalism = independence.
Socialsim = dependence.

Not sure why anyone in this country would ever need to debate which is better. I guess public schooling is succeeding.
 
#24
#24
I think we are own two different wavelengths here. We are arguing different points.

Those programs I listed above are by definition Socialistic programs. They are government ran programs that use Tax dollars to benefit the public welfare.

.


Regulatory agencies are NOT by definition socialistic. You appear to be equating any way in which the government impacts the private sector as socialistic. Many would argue that regulation is actually good for capitalism (as in the case of some financial regulation) as it clarifies risk and helps rationalize investment. The point is that we still have private investment decisions and returns.

If the only requirement for socialism is the government spending tax dollars on public welfare then all government by definition is socialism. That is too broad a notion of what socialism is.

I may be in the minority here but here's my take on healthcare:

1. If the government provides insurance to the public using tax dollars (e.g. medicaid, national healthcare insurance) but we still have a private sector healthcare system it is not Socialism. It is redistribution and has socialistic tendencies as a result.

2. If the government provides healthcare. It is Socialism.

To your larger point about Conservatives claiming Socialism is evil while being too dumb to recognize we have some degree of Socialism is a false argument.

Conservatives recognize a role for government that includes the government being a direct provider of goods and service (e.g. military). What they (we) object to is the creeping reach of government into more an more control of our daily lives and more and more provision of services that are not Constitutionally mandated.

When you say Conservatives see Socialism as evil, it is the expanding role of government that is viewed as evil (evil may not be the right word either); not the mere fact that government does anything (your apparent definition of Socialism).
 
#25
#25
What I love is the one of the cliche arguments against captilalism is that it favors a select few to be powerful, rich, and have control. Even if that assertion was true, at least the people worked their way for it, but it really is not.

However, in socialism, you have a select few who do nothing but be hot aired blow hards, and they get all the power to dictate to everyone exactly how they live. See Algore and company dicatating how we drive our cars, wipe our butts, and how warm we need to keep our house.
 

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