Churches Not Tax-Exempt - Chuck Grassley

[rjd970]

Of course you would- just like a kid wants a parent to bail them out of trouble without their having to take responsibility and change.

FTR, this is exactly why welfare is not only a failure but cruel. It enables people to continue self-destructive behaviors because gov't cannot demand moral changes.



Why not do that for everyone? Our military and other constitutionally mandated functions can be more than adequately funded by taxes other than income and corporate taxes. Why not let people opt out of income taxes by giving to charities/non-profits that address poverty, education, environmental clean up, etc? Why not let people take a dollar for dollar for dollar credit on their Soc Sec contribution if they are willing to put equal amounts into a personal IRA and the care of an elderly person?

People are going to pull themselves up out of poverty or they aren't, telling them Jesus loves them isn't going to get them a job.

I agree with the bolded, problem is, in the current climate and spending culture it is pure fantasy. I agree 100% in principle, in reality it isn't going to happen. Religious organizations should be taxed IMO based on how much charitable work they are actually doing. Otherwise, it is a business and should be taxed like anything else.

 

[NEO]

In his mind, he is superior and his opinion more valuable because he owns a business and makes a good living. He feels he could have had this success in zimbabwe, Haiti, or Venezuela, and has not benefited from favorable circumstances at any time. He apparently thinks a person's worth is measures in assets. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

IP, I want to try to tackle a few points you made here that I disagree with.


1) I do not measure a mans worth by his assets. Some people are good at making money. Some people are not. I would place a missionary way above myself. I am nothing special. But China has the wealthiest billionaires in the world and there are rich people in every country. There's always money to be made in every country. You just have to know the angle.

2) This is not in your post but it has been hinted at in other post. I am not personally debating the tax break on giving. I personally would still give. I am debating the tax break the churches get. I do not believe it is fair to go after the churches. Volatile has some serious issues with the church and is constantly calling them out. His intent in this thread was to talk about taxing income on churches. FD is the one who changed the debate into "people won't give if they aren't getting a tax break."

3) I made a point about liberals and giving because it has been discovered by multiple news outlets that liberals give far less than conservatives. I find it disgusting that liberals are always wanting to spend other people's money but don't want to give as much out of their own pockets. I did not ask what Volatile made. I asked what he paid in taxes and gave to charity. I wanted to see what kind of sacrifice he was making to better the world. I also wanted to see what percentage tax he was at.

4) There a people on here who I respect. If Tigervol or VolinBham or even Droski disagree with me I normally listen. I have disagreed with all 3 at some point but I feel each have a viewpoint worth hearing out. All 3 I feel come to a debate with an open mind and make rational comments. Also, all 3 will debate ( except for Droski when he was hopped up on meds) without personally attacking you. Reality is, I took shots at Droski in the beginning due to him living in Cali. You IP I would say I borderline respect. You come in to debates sometimes with a view that LG could get behind. Other times you come with sanity. You don't seem to have an agenda aside from your GW trip which appears to be your future calling. People with agendas on here disturb me. Both right and left.

 

[Weezy]

People who have given to Haiti have wasted their money. That government is so corrupt that only about 10% of donations has reached the affected. The vast majority of US supplies is for sale in flea markets in the Dominican Republic.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

I really hope they got my Kiffin t-shirt, otherwise I would've like to have burned the damn thing.

 

[PandamoniumReigns]

IP, I want to try to tackle a few points you made here that I disagree with.


1) I do not measure a mans worth by his assets. Some people are good at making money. Some people are not. I would place a missionary way above myself. I am nothing special. But China has the wealthiest billionaires in the world and there are rich people in every country. There's always money to be made in every country. You just have to know the angle.

2) This is not in your post but it has been hinted at in other post. I am not personally debating the tax break on giving. I personally would still give. I am debating the tax break the churches get. I do not believe it is fair to go after the churches. Volatile has some serious issues with the church and is constantly calling them out. His intent in this thread was to talk about taxing income on churches. FD is the one who changed the debate into "people won't give if they aren't getting a tax break."

3) I made a point about liberals and giving because it has been discovered by multiple news outlets that liberals give far less than conservatives. I find it disgusting that liberals are always wanting to spend other people's money but don't want to give as much out of their own pockets. I did not ask what Volatile made. I asked what he paid in taxes and gave to charity. I wanted to see what kind of sacrifice he was making to better the world. I also wanted to see what percentage tax he was at.

4) There a people on here who I respect. If Tigervol or VolinBham or even Droski disagree with me I normally listen. I have disagreed with all 3 at some point but I feel each have a viewpoint worth hearing out. All 3 I feel come to a debate with an open mind and make rational comments. Also, all 3 will debate ( except for Droski when he was hopped up on meds) without personally attacking you. Reality is, I took shots at Droski in the beginning due to him living in Cali. You IP I would say I borderline respect. You come in to debates sometimes with a view that LG could get behind. Other times you come with sanity. You don't seem to have an agenda aside from your GW trip which appears to be your future calling. People with agendas on here disturb me. Both right and left.

I have to say I am glad, relieved, etc that my name was not mentioned in the list of those you respect.

Seriously - judging a guy for donating less than you? Let's hope for your sake you don't fall on hard times. That meager $350 donation would look a lot larger and more charitable than you realize.

 

[NEO]

I do think it is pretty admirable that he gives and yes 350 dollars is probably ( ok it is) alot harder for him to give % wise than the same % to me. I will agree with that. But I also find it easy for someone to complain the "wealthy" need higher taxes when so little taxes are coming out of his check and to tax churches when he does not actually give to a church. I asked what he gives and pays in taxes. I didn't want to know his salary. He just threw it out. It's nobody elses right to know what anyone on here makes. I probably should have only asked what he gives and left it at that.

 

[VOLatile]

I do think it is pretty admirable that he gives and yes 350 dollars is probably ( ok it is) alot harder for him to give % wise than the same % to me. I will agree with that. But I also find it easy for someone to complain the "wealthy" need higher taxes when so little taxes are coming out of his check and to tax churches when he does not actually give to a church. I asked what he gives and pays in taxes. I didn't want to know his salary. He just threw it out. It's nobody elses right to know what anyone on here makes. I probably should have only asked what he gives and left it at that.

I don't mind being asked what I make. I've openly stated it before. Would I like to make more and be able to give more? Yes. Do I like my job? Yes. Liking my job > amount of money I make. That's why I'm going into art instead of business. I have no desire to be rich.

I stated earlier in this thread that Norway's tax system is completely transparent. That's admirable, IMO.

IMO churches are not the same thing as NPO's. Churches are a business. That business is to gain followers. Starting with taxing "megachurches" would be a good beginning. Tax churches on the levels of size and amount of charitable work they do, rather than all on the same level.

PS - I've learned a lot in reading this thread.

 

[sjt18]

People are going to pull themselves up out of poverty or they aren't, telling them Jesus loves them isn't going to get them a job.

Experience and history tells us that when people come to faith in large numbers within a society... the society changes for the better. I do not know to what extent that may be true of other religions... but it is true of biblical Christianity. The Judeo-Christian ethic promotes a good, civil, and prosperous society.

I wasn't trying to insult you personally earlier. I was simply saying that receiving help rightly comes with strings determined by the one giving the help.

 

[VOLatile]

Experience and history tells us that when people come to faith in large numbers within a society... the society changes for the better. I do not know to what extent that may be true of other religions... but it is true of biblical Christianity. The Judeo-Christian ethic promotes a good, civil, and prosperous society.

I wasn't trying to insult you personally earlier. I was simply saying that receiving help rightly comes with strings determined by the one giving the help.

You can do this without religion. Scandinavia has a relatively low "religion percentage," for lack of a better term, yet the European recession has barely affected those countries. Correlation does not equal causation.

You could create ANY religion that preaches that mantra in an impoverished community and give people hope.

 

[sjt18]

You can do this without religion. Scandinavia has a relatively low "religion percentage," for lack of a better term, yet the European recession has barely affected those countries. Correlation does not equal causation.

I specifically acknowledged that I didn't know if other religions had the same impact. There is causation at work when people behave honestly and responsibly without having to be constrained by an outside force.

You could create ANY religion that preaches that mantra in an impoverished community and give people hope.

No. Not really but that's probably a different discussion. Islam in its most fundamental form is not a religion of hope for instance.

 

[NEO]

I don't mind being asked what I make. I've openly stated it before. Would I like to make more and be able to give more? Yes. Do I like my job? Yes. Liking my job > amount of money I make. That's why I'm going into art instead of business. I have no desire to be rich.

I stated earlier in this thread that Norway's tax system is completely transparent. That's admirable, IMO.

IMO churches are not the same thing as NPO's. Churches are a business. That business is to gain followers. Starting with taxing "megachurches" would be a good beginning. Tax churches on the levels of size and amount of charitable work they do, rather than all on the same level.

PS - I've learned a lot in reading this thread.

I just don't understand your hate for all things religious. It is hate no matter how you what to phrase it. You would like to see all things Christian go away. That is my problem with you in a nutshell.

Now onto what you just said. I do not believe a church should be able to hold more money in an account than needed for a rainy day fund. I do believe a church should be held accountable for its money and where it goes. I do not believe Jesus needs stainglass windows and over the top decor. I do believe that every penny I give that goes straight to helping someone else should not be taxed as income for the church. I do have the church account for every penny I give it. I do not blindly give. Last Thanksgiving my church bought Thanksgiving dinner for families in the area that could not afford a real dinner. I was fortunate enough to help buy multiple meals. I feel none of that money should be taxed as income to the church. I am not special for buying meals. Honestly, I would be a real piece of chit if I didn't. I have seen schools built with my money for orphaned children in Haiti. I have seen my money actually go to help feed this kids. I have seen medicine bought for them. Churches are not evil. Alot of churches do alot of good Volatile. Not every church and mega church is all about money.

 

[BeecherVol]

I don't mind being asked what I make. I've openly stated it before. Would I like to make more and be able to give more? Yes. Do I like my job? Yes. Liking my job > amount of money I make. That's why I'm going into art instead of business. I have no desire to be rich.

I stated earlier in this thread that Norway's tax system is completely transparent. That's admirable, IMO.

IMO churches are not the same thing as NPO's. Churches are a business. That business is to gain followers. Starting with taxing "megachurches" would be a good beginning. Tax churches on the levels of size and amount of charitable work they do, rather than all on the same level.

PS - I've learned a lot in reading this thread.

Not sure I follow.

 

[VOLatile]

Not sure I follow.

Understood. It's rather vague.

Try to stay with me on this, it may come out incoherent. My personality, sorry. If there's something I get wrong, correct me on it, please.

Church as a business
Bring in followers, more followers bring more money. That money is dispersed between charitable work, paying administration and pastor/priest/imam, building improvements, and, for lack of a better term, church propaganda.

What should not be taxed?
Charitable work should not be taxed. Never.

What should be taxed?
Everything else that is normally taxed with businesses, should be taxed to churches, too.

Am I saying tax the living hell out of them? No. I may have come off that way earlier, though.

 

[NEO]

Understood. It's rather vague.

Try to stay with me on this, it may come out incoherent. My personality, sorry. If there's something I get wrong, correct me on it, please.

Church as a business
Bring in followers, more followers bring more money. That money is dispersed between charitable work, paying administration and pastor/priest/imam, building improvements, and, for lack of a better term, church propaganda.

What should not be taxed?
Charitable work should not be taxed. Never.

What should be taxed?
Everything else that is normally taxed with businesses, should be taxed to churches, too.

Am I saying tax the living hell out of them? No. I may have come off that way earlier, though.

Dude you've got issues. I'm sorry but seriously what the hell happened to you at some point. You might be the most extreme anti-relgion person I've ever met. By the way a business is never taxed on overhead such as rent, utilites, or marketing. Salaries are also overhead. You may want to go back and understand corp laws before you say what should be taxed.

 

[BeecherVol]

Understood. It's rather vague.

Try to stay with me on this, it may come out incoherent. My personality, sorry. If there's something I get wrong, correct me on it, please.

Church as a business
Bring in followers, more followers bring more money. That money is dispersed between charitable work, paying administration and pastor/priest/imam, building improvements, and, for lack of a better term, church propaganda.

What should not be taxed?
Charitable work should not be taxed. Never.

What should be taxed?
Everything else that is normally taxed with businesses, should be taxed to churches, too.

Am I saying tax the living hell out of them? No. I may have come off that way earlier, though.

So your taxing "profit" (if you compare it to a business) after expenses?

 

[BearCat204]

Economics 101 has been kicked in the nads in this thread

 

[VOLatile]

I'm not nearly as anti-religion in real life as I am on here. Here I no have worries about offending anyone and losing friends.

And yeah, like I said, I am probably going about it all wrong. I'll stick to just being anti-religion from here on out.

 

[tigervol9802]

Understood. It's rather vague.

Try to stay with me on this, it may come out incoherent. My personality, sorry. If there's something I get wrong, correct me on it, please.

Church as a business
Bring in followers, more followers bring more money. That money is dispersed between charitable work, paying administration and pastor/priest/imam, building improvements, and, for lack of a better term, church propaganda.

What should not be taxed?
Charitable work should not be taxed. Never.

What should be taxed?
Everything else that is normally taxed with businesses, should be taxed to churches, too.

Am I saying tax the living hell out of them? No. I may have come off that way earlier, though.

Are other non-profits not businesses? You'd have a hard time convincing me the Susan g women foundation isn't one right now.

And why not tax non profits on the amount they pay directors?
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[NEO]

I'm not nearly as anti-religion in real life as I am on here. Here I no have worries about offending anyone and losing friends.

And yeah, like I said, I am probably going about it all wrong. I'll stick to just being anti-religion from here on out.

You need to be the same person in real life as you are on here.

 

[VOLatile]

You need to be the same person in real life as you are on here.

Speaking about my anti-theism or my sheer (economical) stupidity shown in this thread?

For the most part I've surrounded myself with like-minded individuals. I would be quickly disowned by my family outside of my parents if they knew exactly how I feel about religion. I just don't bring it up around them and show up late to miss pre-dinner prayer.

 

[NEO]

Speaking about my anti-theism or my sheer (economical) stupidity shown in this thread?

For the most part I've surrounded myself with like-minded individuals. I would be quickly disowned by my family outside of my parents if they knew exactly how I feel about religion. I just don't bring it up around them and show up late to miss pre-dinner prayer.

Why would they disown you? That sounds harsh. I have 3 kids and I hope that they end up saved but if they don't and they end up (God help me) thinking like you do towards christianity I would still love them. One of my best friends is an English professor who is a straight evolutionist. I'm not going to turn my back on him because we disagree.

 

[VOLatile]

Why would they disown you? That sounds harsh. I have 3 kids and I hope that they end up saved but if they don't and they end up (God help me) thinking like you do towards christianity I would still love them. One of my best friends is an English professor who is a straight evolutionist. I'm not going to turn my back on him because we disagree.

They're all fundamentalists. I applaud you for your acceptance. At some point I will tell them, but not while my grandma is alive. :ermm:

 

[NEO]

They're all fundamentalists. I applaud you for your acceptance. At some point I will tell them, but not while my grandma is alive. :ermm:

I hate to say this but every person I have ever met that is anti-religion has gotten absolutely mind phucked in their childhood by some over the top christian.

Jesus came to earth and went straight to the worst of the worst. He didn't hang out with rich famous people he hung out with hookers and poor people and the sick.

My mother is a devout christian. She loved me when I was in christian school. She loved me when I was working in strip clubs, although she said I was hurting God and I needed to change, and she loved me when I stopped working in strip clubs and got a real job. She never turned her love away from me. I'm no better than anyone because I am a christian. Reality is, I'm a pretty big POS. I can be very arrogant at times and have a very foul mouth. I work on all these things daily but I am sure there are non believers out there who have sinned less in their lifetime than I have. It's about truly trying. Anyways, that's my take.

 

[VOLatile]

I hate to say this but every person I have ever met that is anti-religion has gotten absolutely mind phucked in their childhood by some over the top christian.

Jesus came to earth and went straight to the worst of the worst. He didn't hang out with rich famous people he hung out with hookers and poor people and the sick.

My mother is a devout christian. She loved me when I was in christian school. She loved me when I was working in strip clubs, although she said I was hurting God and I needed to change, and she loved me when I stopped working in strip clubs and got a real job. She never turned her love away from me. I'm no better than anyone because I am a christian. Reality is, I'm a pretty big POS. I can be very arrogant at times and have a very foul mouth. I work on all these things daily but I am sure there are non believers out there who have sinned less in their lifetime than I have. It's about truly trying. Anyways, that's my take.

Wise words and you're a pretty big man to say you're a POS.

I never suffered any mental trauma at the hands of my family when I was a child, though. I agree that many have. It instills that original distaste for religion.

 

[BeecherVol]

Wise words and you're a pretty big man to say you're a POS.

I never suffered any mental trauma at the hands of my family when I was a child, though. I agree that many have. It instills that original distaste for religion.

When it boils right down to it, it ends up as a personal decision no matter how you were raised. Being "raised a chrisitian is not possible". There are instances where religious practices are a part of raising, but that is a different situation. And I have witnessed that working both ways.

 

[NEO]

Just remember one thing. Christ went after the Pharisees. Called them out. Man will always let you down.