Churches Not Tax-Exempt - Chuck Grassley

#76
#76
BeecherVol said:
When it boils right down to it, it ends up as a personal decision no matter how you were raised. Being "raised a chrisitian is not possible". There are instances where religious practices are a part of raising, but that is a different situation. And I have witnessed that working both ways.
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The "I was raised a Christian..." thing always intrigued me. "I have Christian morals," leads me to wonder the difference between a Christian's morals and anyone else of that specific society's morals. Obviously different societies will differ in viewpoints and acceptance. Strict Muslim communities as an example or even cannibal tribes.
 
#77
#77
VOLatile said:
The "I was raised a Christian..." thing always intrigued me. "I have Christian morals," leads me to wonder the difference between a Christian's morals and anyone else of that specific society's morals. Obviously different societies will differ in viewpoints and acceptance. Strict Muslim communities as an example or even cannibal tribes.
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There are some differences in morals, some similarities as well across the world.

There are differences on how you handle immorality. Its hard for most non believers to grasp, but as a christian you are not to hate the immoral person, but the act. Remembering that you were the same, and in some instances you are still immoral. Being a christian does not make you immune to that. Thats a good reason why christianity is looked at the way it is. Many do not practice what they are pushing on others.

If I hated you (for immorality), and you knew it by how I reacted to you, and I am supposed to reach out to you with the word. I have cut my legs off.
 
#78
#78
I see. It still all sounds the same to me, except that I hate the person and the act. Which is sometimes true, and definitely true of my three cheating ex's.
 
#79
#79
VOLatile said:
I see. It still all sounds the same to me, except that I hate the person and the act. Which is sometimes true, and definitely true of my three cheating ex's.
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It's like this. We were all born losers. None of us are worth God's grace. My pastor is no less a sinner than I am. I am no less a sinner than the rapist down the street. We are all lowly, sinners. It is not by are actions that we are saved. It is by acceptance of Jesus Christ, knowing he is the only way to salvation and that he void of sin died for my sins, that I become a christian by placing my faith in him to enter the kingdom of heaven. And because I have been born again in the blood of Christ I want to live the way he would want me to live. I do not try to avoid sin to be a moral person but because it is what God would want me to do. Because if I am a christian I am suppose to try, try being the key word, not to sin.
 
#80
#80
VOLatile said:
I see. It still all sounds the same to me, except that I hate the person and the act. Which is sometimes true, and definitely true of my three cheating ex's.
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It ain't easy. But when Im wrong or immoral, my sin is no different from yours in Gods eyes. The only difference is accepting Christs death as payment for it. I am instructed to flee sin/immorality, being human Im not gonna out run all of it all the time, but that is the goal.

In the OT your standing with God was based specifically on being righteous. As people grew further from this, God basically gave mankind another chance by sending Christ as payment for the sin. He became the only way to God at that point. That did not exclude what I posted above, but its no longer the judgement tool.
 
#81
#81
BeecherVol said:
It ain't easy. But when Im wrong or immoral, my sin is no different from yours in Gods eyes. The only difference is accepting Christs death as payment for it. I am instructed to flee sin/immorality, being human Im not gonna out run all of it all the time, but that is the goal.

In the OT your standing with God was based specifically on being righteous. As people grew further from this, God basically gave mankind another chance by sending Christ as payment for the sin. He became the only way to God at that point. That did not exclude what I posted above, but its no longer the judgement tool.
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That's a good way to look at it that i never had. We got so far away from God that we needed a permant fix in the form of Christ. You can see in the OT that Jehovah was getting more and more annoyed as time went on and was always expecting more of us than we mankind did.
 
#83
#83
The problem is the huge number of very small store front churches that are not keeping financial records. I'm all for greater accountability.
 
#84
#84
VOLatile said:
I don't mind being asked what I make. I've openly stated it before. Would I like to make more and be able to give more? Yes. Do I like my job? Yes. Liking my job > amount of money I make. That's why I'm going into art instead of business. I have no desire to be rich.

I stated earlier in this thread that Norway's tax system is completely transparent. That's admirable, IMO.

IMO churches are not the same thing as NPO's. Churches are a business. That business is to gain followers. Starting with taxing "megachurches" would be a good beginning. Tax churches on the levels of size and amount of charitable work they do, rather than all on the same level.

PS - I've learned a lot in reading this thread.
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I go to a megachurch. I'd LOVE for someone to compare the charitable work that my church does to a npo, it would be hilarious. We do have several locations and mulitmillion dollar buildings, but we also gave a million bucks to haiti last year, and we do run over a hundred orphanages, and a ton of other stuff that I couldn't begin to list. I've also worked in regular churches (under 1000 people) and they didn't do nearly as much in relation to their size.
 
#85
#85
Ihatethebuckeyes said:
Just remember one thing. Christ went after the Pharisees. Called them out. Man will always let you down.
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Pharisees were known as hypocrites who "tooted their own horn". They made sure the common people could see how "righteous" they were.

Sounds like someone in this thread.....
 
#86
#86
VOLatile said:
The "I was raised a Christian..." thing always intrigued me. "I have Christian morals," leads me to wonder the difference between a Christian's morals and anyone else of that specific society's morals. Obviously different societies will differ in viewpoints and acceptance. Strict Muslim communities as an example or even cannibal tribes.
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Societies share the same norms and mores, but morality can vary greatly.
 
#87
#87
PandamoniumReigns said:
Pharisees were known as hypocrites who "tooted their own horn". They made sure the common people could see how "righteous" they were.

Sounds like someone in this thread.....
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The Pharisees' problems weren't that shallow. MOST of what Christ confronted them over was their traditions. Traditions were given as a means to avoid violating the actual OT Laws but over time they became more legalistically honored. For instance, "keep the Sabbath" became you can only walk X number of steps on the Sabbath. On the other side, they used "loopholes" in Moses' declaration concerning divorce to allow men to abandon their wife for next to nothing.

The long and short of it is that they added and subtracted from the letter and spirit of scripture.
 
#88
#88
VOLatile said:
"I have Christian morals," leads me to wonder the difference between a Christian's morals and anyone else of that specific society's morals. .
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Generally speaking the difference would be choice vs compulsion.

Biblical Christians have a duty to "preach the whole gospel" to include warnings about sin and judgment. The NT nowhere empowers Christians to attempt to impose morality or "faith" on someone else.

A Christian faithful to NT principle would tell you that cohabitation was wrong... they wouldn't however kill your girlfriend like some Sharia countries would. That same Christian would strongly oppose your lifestyle... but still be gracious, kind, and generous toward you.

Christians rightly take a stand against abortion... but they haven't taken up arms over it even as heinous as it is.

That does not mean Christians should never take a stand and be willing to suffer or even die rather than abandon principle. It does mean that answering someone should be as gracious as it is forceful.

Jerry Falwell was a favorite target of the left and others. He was falsely accused and mischaracterized without mercy. But if you can find videos of news debates or statements by him... you will find him gracious. Even when attacked, he didn't show hate toward his attackers. He made a firm stand and took hits for it. But by and large he took them like a Christian should and kept on "fighting". People who knew him affirmed that he was that way when the lights and cameras were off too.
 
#89
#89
As a Christian, I cannot hate anyone. I can hate the sin, not the sinner. Because in God's eyes we are all sinners. Christ grace and salvation freed me from from my sins. This doesn't mean that I never sin. I am living in human flesh. One scripture that keeps me grounded is very simple, "how can I love God who I have not seen, when I can't love my brother who I have seen!"
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#90
#90
sjt18 said:
The Pharisees' problems weren't that shallow. MOST of what Christ confronted them over was their traditions. Traditions were given as a means to avoid violating the actual OT Laws but over time they became more legalistically honored. For instance, "keep the Sabbath" became you can only walk X number of steps on the Sabbath. On the other side, they used "loopholes" in Moses' declaration concerning divorce to allow men to abandon their wife for next to nothing.

The long and short of it is that they added and subtracted from the letter and spirit of scripture.
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I realize that. However, they were called out for praying aloud on the street corners for all to see...somewhat shallow if you ask me. That was my point. I wasn't saying that was the only thing "wrong" with the pharisees.
 
#91
#91
PandamoniumReigns said:
I realize that. However, they were called out for praying aloud on the street corners for all to see...somewhat shallow if you ask me. That was my point. I wasn't saying that was the only thing "wrong" with the pharisees.
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I don't think either of you have quite pegged the real problem with the pharisees.

The long and short of it is they were bullies, who abused their spiritual authority for selfish ends, and justified it all by twisted interpretations of God's law.
 
#92
#92
StepCross said:
I don't think either of you have quite pegged the real problem with the pharisees.

The long and short of it is they were bullies, who abused their spiritual authority for selfish ends, and justified it all by twisted interpretations of God's law.
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I would agree with that. Christ was deemed as a threat OT tradition and the law. (to an extent)

They envisioned the OT prophecy of Christ setting up his kingdom on earth. Even after he explained his intent.
 
#93
#93
StepCross said:
I don't think either of you have quite pegged the real problem with the pharisees.

The long and short of it is they were bullies, who abused their spiritual authority for selfish ends, and justified it all by twisted interpretations of God's law.
Click to expand...

sjt18 said:
The Pharisees' problems weren't that shallow. MOST of what Christ confronted them over was their traditions. Traditions were given as a means to avoid violating the actual OT Laws but over time they became more legalistically honored. For instance, "keep the Sabbath" became you can only walk X number of steps on the Sabbath. On the other side, they used "loopholes" in Moses' declaration concerning divorce to allow men to abandon their wife for next to nothing.

The long and short of it is that they added and subtracted from the letter and spirit of scripture.
Click to expand...

BeecherVol said:
I would agree with that. Christ was deemed as a threat OT tradition and the law. (to an extent)

They envisioned the OT prophecy of Christ setting up his kingdom on earth. Even after he explained his intent.
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I think you all are missing my point. The poster who hates the buckeyes is making statements about pharisees when he himself is showing some of the same traits.

This is not a discussion on the Pharisees. Let it go! Jeez.
 
#94
#94
PandamoniumReigns said:
I think you all are missing my point. The poster who hates the buckeyes is making statements about pharisees when he himself is showing some of the same traits.

This is not a discussion on the Pharisees. Let it go! Jeez.
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Just replying to a post bro. Wasn't really directed at you, more toward what was being posted off topic or not.:hi:
 
#95
#95
Megachurch = Tower if Babel
Megachurch pastor = Nimrod

I'm not for taxing donations as income but I wholeheartedly believe sales tax shouldn't be exempted.
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