Ciudad Juarez is lost

#26
#26
Vol423 said:
You're living in fantasy land. Cartels are killing competitors in the U.S. NOW.
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LMAO. Yeah. I'm in the Fantasyland. They aren't killing Californians who legally grow marijuana. Name one legal product that creates and/or maintains a violent underground. You can't do it.
 
#28
#28
nbakerld said:
What problem? Drug abuse? There isn't a solution to that problem. Empirical evidence shows that prohibition makes it a bigger problem.
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Cartels. Now that they exist they will seek to maintain their existence. While US residents could grow MJ they can't produce cocaine or any number of other drugs. I doubt the US government will allow the production and distribution of cocaine.

Human trafficking, prostitution, etc. etc. These groups will fight each other and any that try to take them down whether drugs are legal in the US or not.
 
#29
#29
volinbham said:
Cartels. Now that they exist they will seek to maintain their existence. While US residents could grow MJ they can't produce cocaine or any number of other drugs. I doubt the US government will allow the production and distribution of cocaine.

Human trafficking, prostitution, etc. etc. These groups will fight each other and any that try to take them down whether drugs are legal in the US or not.
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Exactly. It's not as if the bootleggers just faded away.
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#31
#31
volinbham said:
Cartels. Now that they exist they will seek to maintain their existence. While US residents could grow MJ they can't produce cocaine or any number of other drugs. I doubt the US government will allow the production and distribution of cocaine.

Human trafficking, prostitution, etc. etc. These groups will fight each other and any that try to take them down whether drugs are legal in the US or not.
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Well, I support legalizing all drugs. I'd imagine there's a lot more violence (at least domestically) behind heroin than marijuana.

I also support legalizing prostitution.

Do you have any evidence that lifting drug prohibition will lead to human trafficking?

The cartels will still have profit potential selling drugs to the rest of the world. The difference is it will no longer be our problem.
 
#32
#32
BigPapaVol said:
Exactly. It's not as if the bootleggers just faded away.
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Yeah, they remained powerful. One of them got elected president. :pepper:

Most changed up to focus on gambling and racketeering where the violence is negligible in comparison to the war on drugs or alcohol prohibition.
 
#33
#33
nbakerld said:
Well, I support legalizing all drugs. I'd imagine there's a lot more violence (at least domestically) behind heroin than marijuana.

I also support legalizing prostitution.

Do you have any evidence that lifting drug prohibition will lead to human trafficking?

Huh? It's already going on. If you reduce one revenue stream another will emerge.

The cartels will still have profit potential selling drugs to the rest of the world. The difference is it will no longer be our problem.
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Way too simplistic. They will still traffic drugs to the US. Organized crime does this with cigarettes, liquor, etc. even though these products are not only legal but their production and distribution is sanctioned on a large level. RJReynolds ain't gonna start selling left-handed cigarettes by the pack and carton. As stated earlier cocaine and other drugs like meth, extasy, various pharma will all still use underground distribution and processing. This stuff could be made offshore and funneled through Mexico.

These are just a few examples of why the Cartels won't magically disappear if the US legalizes drug consumption.
 
#34
#34
Wow, I've never heard of cigarette cartels. They must be a lot more tame than drug cartels. There's a reason for that.

It's interesting you bring this up. Government does have the ability to create a black market for products through taxation (rather than prohibition). In fact, when congress wanted to ban Marijuana they realized the constitution doesn't permit it (later they didn't care about constitutionality) so they taxed it so much that nobody could afford to buy it. This effectively banned marijuan and created a black market. Looks like cigarettes are being taxed enough to create a seemingly non-violent black market.

But honestly, I've never heard of a human-trafficking argument for support of the War on Drugs. That was original.
 
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#35
#35
It's pretty clear where NBaker stands on the issue. Gracias for derailing the thread to push your legalization agenda.

Btw, potheads suck.
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#36
#36
nbakerld said:
But honestly, I've never heard of a human-trafficking argument for support of the War on Drugs. That was original.
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They already do this. Legalizing drugs won't stop it.

It is not an argument for or against the War on Drugs. It is an explanation of why cartels won't vanish if drugs are legalized.
 
#37
#37
volinbham said:
They already do this. Legalizing drugs won't stop it.

It is not an argument for or against the War on Drugs. It is an explanation of why cartels won't vanish if drugs are legalized.
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Forget it, he's not gonna see it that way.
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#38
#38
volinbham said:
They already do this. Legalizing drugs won't stop it.

It is not an argument for or against the War on Drugs. It is an explanation of why cartels won't vanish if drugs are legalized.
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Oh, I'm sorry I thought you were saying you CAN'T legalize drugs because the cartels will just switch to human trafficking.
 
#39
#39
TXVOL07 said:
Forget it, he's not gonna see it that way.
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What do you know about me? Didn't mean to derail your thread by providing a possible solution to the dilemma at hand. Maybe you just wanted to talk about how badass it would be to have American troops kicking butt in Mexico?
 
#40
#40
nbakerld said:
Wow, I've never heard of cigarette cartels. They must be a lot more tame than drug cartels. There's a reason for that.

It's interesting you bring this up. Government does have the ability to create a black market for products through taxation (rather than prohibition). In fact, when congress wanted to ban Marijuana they realized the constitution doesn't permit it (later they didn't care about constitutionality) so they taxed it so much that nobody could afford to buy it. This effectively banned marijuan and created a black market. Looks like cigarettes are being taxed enough to create a seemingly non-violent black market.

But honestly, I've never heard of a human-trafficking argument for support of the War on Drugs. That was original.
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You outta read up on Borderlandbeat.com on how much deeper this is before making statements about this just being about dealing weed.

When my friends in El Paso tell me they can hear the rpg's at night, it's an invested issue I have. Don't attempt to belittle the severity of the situation we all will pay for. Not just Texans, citizens across these United States.
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#41
#41
nbakerld said:
What do you know about me? Didn't mean to derail your thread by providing a possible solution to the dilemma at hand. Maybe you just wanted to talk about how badass it would be to have American troops kicking butt in Mexico?
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In my opinion, your solution sucks. I respect it, but I'll disagree with it all week and three times on Sunday.
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#42
#42
TXVOL07 said:
You outta read up on Borderlandbeat.com on how much deeper this is before making statements about this just being about dealing weed.

When my friends in El Paso tell me they can hear the rpg's at night, it's an invested issue I have. Don't attempt to belittle the severity of the situation we all will pay for. Not just Texans, citizens across these United States.
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I don't even know what you are talking about. These seem to be counterpoints to points that were never made.
 
#44
#44
TXVOL07 said:
In my opinion, your solution sucks. I respect it, but I'll disagree with it all week and three times on Sunday.
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Prohibition has never worked. Empirical evidence supports that legalization not only reduces crime, but also the social ills associated with drug abuse. You can hide your head in the sand and claim that it's a solution that "sucks", but it's the only solution. The war on drugs is completely unwinnable, it's costly, and it exacerbates the drug problem. We can't even keep drugs out of prisons, how on earth can we keep them out of the entire country? The war on drugs is not practical in any way.

If you support the war on drugs you fall into 1 of 2 categories:

(1) you are ignorant of the actual consequences
(2) you take the position that no matter the consequences it's our moral duty to ban drugs
 
#45
#45
The_Orange_Pearl said:
What drugs are you talking about? Weed?

If you legalize them all, it won't be any better. You'll just have more lazy piece of crap drug addicts trying to get on welfare. That's if they manage to maintain a residency. I'm sure the homeless population would increase. Too busy/desperate looking for their next fix to go to work or overspending so they are evicted. Obviously that's a possibility while it's illegal but a lot more people will be duped into believing smoking crack and shooting up heroin is acceptable. A higher percentage of people trying it means a higher percentage of addiction.

It would decrease drug dealers but it would just increase bums and drug addicts. And their need for a fix might not lower crime. Lots of them will steal and hold people at gun point for 20 bucks just so they can shoot up for 10 minutes.
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So you're saying people are too stupid to take care of themselves? I've flushed better things down the toilet than this post. You clearly know jack about this particular subject. If you wanna get high, it doesn't matter if it's legal or not... you'll find a way.

To address nbaker's post earlier, legalizing drugs wouldn't end the cartel problem. It would just bring it further into our country and take some of the cartel load off Mexico's back. You don't think the cartels would be pissed if the majority of their customer base was shut off by the US gov't? They would either have to:

1) be happy making no money and find work elsewhere.
2) lower prices to compete with regulated distributors in the US, butchering their own profits in the process.
3) find a way to become an official primary exporter, in turn screwing the US government by jacking up the prices.

It's pretty obvious as to what the best decision is for them. Legalization could create as many problems as it fixes. We could be on the quest for independence from foreign coke and weed in the future. You also have to consider the militant backlash we would incur. Sure, we'd win in an all out blood war against the cartel, but can we afford another fight with another private, foreign organization?
 
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#46
#46
We just disagree. It's fine with me. I don't need to debate it.
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#47
#47
MG1968 said:
the cartels are a billion dollar business, the federal government has made little attempt to stop armed incursions into the SW US. Do you think the cartels are going to allow Ma and Pa farmers to set up shop, legally, a few miles from the Mexican border?

It may lead to a war the Cartels eventually lose, but you're kidding yourself if you think they will just give up once the US cash cow is threatened by extinction.
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Sounds like a good plan. Legalize pot, draw the Cartels out, then execute them.
 
#48
#48
tvolsfan said:
Sounds like a good plan. Legalize pot, draw the Cartels out, then execute them.
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No need to legalize if you want to "draw them out". They're pretty public what with the hangings and all off of interstate bridges.
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#49
#49
TXVOL07 said:
No need to legalize if you want to "draw them out". They're pretty public what with the hangings and all off of interstate bridges.
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I actually just think marijuana being illegal is pointless.
 
#50
#50
this is the weirdest thread - saying legalizing drugs won't get rid of the cartels somehow gets interpreted as being in favor of the War on Drugs (MJ in particular).
 
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