Climate Change

[82_VOL_83]

Thinking that GW will somehow stop the functioning of capitalism is silly. It sounds more like people who have loads invested in coal and oil stocks are unwilling to sell them and invest in the alternatives that would benefit.

Sort of like arguing that the rise of the gasoline engine should never have happened because of what it did to all of the horses.

I think your analogy may be just the opposite of what you are presenting......but what do I know.

 

[jvol1]

I think your analogy may be just the opposite of what you are presenting......but what do I know.

Innovation is a part of capitalism, and alternative energy sources are price-wise becoming competitive with carbon fuels. You'll have to make your point a bit more clear.

 

[hog88]

Innovation is a part of capitalism, and alternative energy sources are price-wise becoming competitive with carbon fuels. You'll have to make your point a bit more clear.

I'm all for alternative energy sources I'm just against the government manipulating the markets to make them competitive.

 

[jvol1]

I'm all for alternative energy sources I'm just against the government manipulating the markets to make them competitive.

Carbon based fuels are subsidized as well.

 

[hog88]

Carbon based fuels are subsidized as well.

How? Please explain these subsidies.

 

[Sandvol]

How? Please explain these subsidies.

Corporations including Big Oil get tax breaks for investing. Liberals call those subsidies. (Allowing corporations to keep their money.)

 

[Sandvol]

Innovation is a part of capitalism, and alternative energy sources are price-wise becoming competitive with carbon fuels. You'll have to make your point a bit more clear.

Dollar for dollar without any outside (government) involvement (fixing) they're not even in the same ball park.

 

[Danl]

Dollar for dollar without any outside (government) involvement (fixing) they're not even in the same ball park.

You're FOS. The govt subsidies for home solar systems certainly increase the ROI and reduce the payback period, but even without the subsidies my system would be much less expensive, over the life of the system, than continuing to pay for electricity from my local utility.

 

[OrangeWayOfLife]

You're FOS. The govt subsidies for home solar systems certainly increase the ROI and reduce the payback period, but even without the subsidies my system would be much less expensive, over the life of the system, than continuing to pay for electricity from my local utility.

If it were profitable, every supplier/large consumers would be making the switch. The market will always dictate what works and what doesn't, trying to manipulate that just puts us further in the hole

 

[Sandvol]

You're FOS. The govt subsidies for home solar systems certainly increase the ROI and reduce the payback period, but even without the subsidies my system would be much less expensive, over the life of the system, than continuing to pay for electricity from my local utility.

Let's see your math.

 

[Sandvol]

If it were profitable, every supplier/large consumers would be making the switch. The market will always dictate what works and what doesn't, trying to manipulate that just puts us further in the hole

You get this kind of reaction from the libs. You install an 8KW system for about $25,000 and you get a tax credit and so they say it will pay for itself in about 10-12 years. But, they live in a high tax state where government drives up fossil fuel costs and federal government subsidizes the solar power manufacturers. In other words in a free market it would never pay for itself. But, what they don't understand is after 10 years they'll need a new system so it still doesn't pay for itself.

 

[hog88]

You're FOS. The govt subsidies for home solar systems certainly increase the ROI and reduce the payback period, but even without the subsidies my system would be much less expensive, over the life of the system, than continuing to pay for electricity from my local utility.

Are you in CA or TN now? That makes a lot of difference, I've done the math and the payback isn't worth it for my house in TN.

 

[Danl]

You get this kind of reaction from the libs. You install an 8KW system for about $25,000 and you get a tax credit and so they say it will pay for itself in about 10-12 years. But, they live in a high tax state where government drives up fossil fuel costs and federal government subsidizes the solar power manufacturers. In other words in a free market it would never pay for itself. But, what they don't understand is after 10 years they'll need a new system so it still doesn't pay for itself.

You're still FOS.

Previous elec bill: $225.00 per month, that's $2,700/year.

System WITHOUT TAX SUBSIDIES = just under $21,000

Simple ROI = 21000/2700 = < 8 year payback.

In B4 cost of money blah blah blah: Electric rates at my utility average a 6% increase per year so its nearly (but not quite) a wash. Also my system over-produces by quite a bit every year. The utility buys that extra juice at wholesale rates. That isn't included in the above simple ROI either.

BTW, good solar panels have a 25 year non-pro-rata guarantee. The only other part of the system is the inverter. Plan on replacing it every 12 to 15 years at $1500 to $2000.

I have actually owned one of these systems for years now. I know what they cost and what they produce.

Again, you're FOS.

And FTR, I'm not even close to being a lib unless that's short for Libertarian.

 

[Danl]

Are you in CA or TN now? That makes a lot of difference, I've done the math and the payback isn't worth it for my house in TN.

I have both residences. It makes complete sense in CA. Not so in TN. The electric rates here in TN are so much lower than CA. We pay about 1/3 as much per kwH in TN vs CA. Then there's the sunshine differential too.

Oh, and right now I'm enjoying the beautiful Tennessee spring!

 

[hog88]

I have both residences. It makes complete sense in CA. Not so in TN. The electric rates here in TN are so much lower than CA. We pay about 1/3 as much per kwH in TN vs CA. Then there's the sunshine differential too.

Oh, and right now I'm enjoying the beautiful Tennessee spring!

It does depend on where you live as to whether they are worth the investment. I've been trying to get my dad to invest in a solar system to supplement the farm in VA. Even with reduced rates from Appalachian Power his electric bills are ridiculous.

 

[AM64]

You're still FOS.

Previous elec bill: $225.00 per month, that's $2,700/year.

System WITHOUT TAX SUBSIDIES = just under $21,000

Simple ROI = 21000/2700 = < 8 year payback.

In B4 cost of money blah blah blah: Electric rates at my utility average a 6% increase per year so its nearly (but not quite) a wash. Also my system over-produces by quite a bit every year. The utility buys that extra juice at wholesale rates. That isn't included in the above simple ROI either.

BTW, good solar panels have a 25 year non-pro-rata guarantee. The only other part of the system is the inverter. Plan on replacing it every 12 to 15 years at $1500 to $2000.

I have actually owned one of these systems for years now. I know what they cost and what they produce.

Again, you're FOS.

And FTR, I'm not even close to being a lib unless that's short for Libertarian.

What about batteries, or is this just supplemental? How many KW?

 

[Danl]

It does depend on where you live as to whether they are worth the investment. I've been trying to get my dad to invest in a solar system to supplement the farm in VA. Even with reduced rates from Appalachian Power his electric bills are ridiculous.

If the numbers work for your farm, I think its a no brainer. The cost of electricity from utilities is probably never coming down.

One of the biggest benefits for me is never getting yelled at for leaving lights or TVs on or leaving the spa turned up all the time or running the heater/ AC all the time, etc.

 

[Danl]

What about batteries, or is this just supplemental? How many KW?

No batteries. Its a net metering system. When the sun is out, the house runs off the system and all the extra goes onto the grid and the meter runs backward. When the sun isn't out, juice comes from the grid and the meter runs forward. Once a year you settle up with the utility. I'm always way ahead.

The system is a little over 5kwH.

 

[hog88]

If the numbers work for your farm, I think its a no brainer. The cost of electricity from utilities is probably never coming down.

One of the biggest benefits for me is never getting yelled at for leaving lights or TVs on or leaving the spa turned up all the time or running the heater/ AC all the time, etc.

Believe me if I could get him to buy in there would be panels.

 

[82_VOL_83]

You're FOS. The govt subsidies for home solar systems certainly increase the ROI and reduce the payback period, but even without the subsidies my system would be much less expensive, over the life of the system, than continuing to pay for electricity from my local utility.

Then jump your ass off the grid.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Innovation is a part of capitalism, and alternative energy sources are price-wise becoming competitive with carbon fuels. You'll have to make your point a bit more clear.

I stand corrected, after reading your post several times, I see it as not arguing against carbon fuels as much as making the point that private investors don't invest in alternative tech. I don't see your analogy though. With a fairly readily available fuel source, the IC engine represented an incredibly huge advantage over the horse. The period of development was relatively short. The technology for alternative fuels has been in development for decades and is still relatively adolescent in nature. We are still decades away from any really meaningful mass produced energy source. Nuclear is about the only thing available that can produce energy at levels necessary to compete. Of course then the tree huggers get involved and you go from regulations necessary for safety to enough regulations to make oil fired and natural gas power generation less expensive.

As hog said, government needs to stay out of it.

 

[Sandvol]

You're still FOS.

Previous elec bill: $225.00 per month, that's $2,700/year.

System WITHOUT TAX SUBSIDIES = just under $21,000

Simple ROI = 21000/2700 = < 8 year payback.

In B4 cost of money blah blah blah: Electric rates at my utility average a 6% increase per year so its nearly (but not quite) a wash. Also my system over-produces by quite a bit every year. The utility buys that extra juice at wholesale rates. That isn't included in the above simple ROI either.

BTW, good solar panels have a 25 year non-pro-rata guarantee. The only other part of the system is the inverter. Plan on replacing it every 12 to 15 years at $1500 to $2000.

I have actually owned one of these systems for years now. I know what they cost and what they produce.

Again, you're FOS.

And FTR, I'm not even close to being a lib unless that's short for Libertarian.

You little squirrely liberal. I'll open up a can of whoop ass on your little ass.

 

[Danl]

You little squirrely liberal. I'll open up a can of whoop ass on your little ass.

Aww. Did I hurt your little feelings when I showed everyone that you're FOS?

Poor little baby.

 

[Sandvol]

Aww. Did I hurt your little feelings when I showed everyone that you're FOS?

Poor little baby.

Yeah you sure showed everyone. Squirrel.

 

[AM64]

No batteries. Its a net metering system. When the sun is out, the house runs off the system and all the extra goes onto the grid and the meter runs backward. When the sun isn't out, juice comes from the grid and the meter runs forward. Once a year you settle up with the utility. I'm always way ahead.

The system is a little over 5kwH.

I can see where that would work in CA because they use a lot of natural gas generation. It's expensive enough to make solar competitive and it works for peaking to meet demand. In TN power is cheaper because it is predominantly produced by large coal fired plants and nuclear - much cheaper, but not good at peaking.

If solar usage increases significantly in TN, then electric rates would also increase because some units would be idled at least periodically and something like natural gas generation would have to be added for peaking. The average user would have to pay higher rates basically to subsidize more erratic power usage caused by solar power. There's always some trade off.