Coach Butch Jones,how long a leash does he have ?

[615vols]

I hope you are right. But you and I have watched this for awhile. The guys who do the ratings don't give it up easy. Still this class is a long way from being top 10... which was one of the points I answered. The poster contended that Jones should be kept as long as he keeps bringing in top 10 classes. I asked what if he doesn't and pointed out that the '15 class currently doesn't look like it will make it.

To make the top 10, UT with about 4 slots to fill would have to improve star avg from 3.27 to around 3.55. That's a longshot.

Do you realize it is only July? You say we are a long way from a top 10 class, and yet here we stand in 6th and only one point from 5th. The class will not look the same come signing day. Just as last year with Booth, Lambert, Lauderdale, etc, current commits will be replaced with others. And as I already said, we are in on several highly rated prospects.
In one of your other posts you said "according to rivals, recruiting hasn't improved significantly "; in my opinion it has. In 2010 Dooley signed 13 4* and 0 5*
players. In 2011, he signed 12 4* and 0 5*. In 2012, 11 4* and 0 5*.
Last season, butch signed 17 4* and 2 5*. You don't see that as significant improvement? Also, our needs are being addressed under butch. Unlike under Dooley who signed a whopping 0 offensive lineman in one class. There's another way recruiting has indeed significantly improved.
If you want to pretend otherwise, have at it.

 

[sjt18]

Sjt, I usually tend to agree with you but your faith in Rivals puts me on the other side this time. Any service that lists Kahlil McKenzie as a mere 4* is a less than accurate ranking service, imo.

I don't have blanket faith in them. I'm just pointing out that neither they nor any of the others show the huge improvement in recruiting that many here keep claiming.

I don't know how these guys will turn out. But as far as rankings by the recruiting sites... Jones' numbers aren't out of line with Dooley, Kiffin, and Fulmer.

 

[GrowVol]

I don't have blanket faith in them. I'm just pointing out that neither they nor any of the others show the huge improvement in recruiting that many here keep claiming.

I don't know how these guys will turn out. But as far as rankings by the recruiting sites... Jones' numbers aren't out of line with Dooley, Kiffin, and Fulmer.

I respect all of your post sjt, but Fulmer, Kiffin, and Dooley didn't have as hard of a sell......when compared to what CBJ and staff have inherited. By the time CBJ and staff got to Knoxville, it was a total dumpster fire with mattresses. So CBJ recruiting at this level now, is comparable to Fulmer or Kiffin recruiting 25 5*.

 

[gordonr24]

Counting Dooley's last class as Jones' and Kiffin's class as Dooley's to help your argument is classic. There is a huge difference in actual program changing players coming in. I understand winning on the field is where it matters but twisting facts to fit a narrative is a joke. Dooley had the best team he could or ever would put on the field in 2012.

And that 2012 team was easily a 9-10 win with the right coaching staff. Very disappointing that year

 

[KBVol]

I agree that I think he will have enough success to make this "worst case" talk moot. I don't agree that changing again is a worse option than "stable" mediocrity or worse.

It's not to say they'll be happy with mediocrity in perpetuity. I'm saying that based on the fit that he's been thus far off the field and the fact that clearly has the program turned around from the grease fire that was the Dooley regime, that he'll be given the benefit of the doubt and offered a longer rope/a 4th year, if you will to either achieve or get closer to an SEC Championship. I just don't see them, given the program's recent pathetic head coaching history, running him off after 3 years and starting all over, absorbing the player attrition, paying a buyout, etc if he doesn't get to some arbitrary win total during year 3.

 

[knoxvols11]

You guys put waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to much into recruiting services and rankings! How many times over the years have we (and others) had high recruiting classes only to hqve dismal years 3/4 years later? What about Stamford? What about Kiffens recruiting class. Again, waaaaaaaaaay to much on recruiting! What matters is on the field and more so the score at the end of the game!

 

[vol'96]

It's pretty damn likely. I mean UT is effectively broke, he's recruiting well, has rallied support from large donors and former players, and hasn't embarrassed us.
Until he jacks up one or more of those things and or time (maybe 4 years) passes and we aren't competing for the East he's safe.
Florida still has Muschamp and they have a title in the last decade and cash to spare. We've been the poster child for what not to do with your coaching hirings and firings for the rest of the league.

UT is a non profit- thus should be net zero or am I confused and we are semi-pro now???

 

[sport3500]

Through 2017.

 

[DD4ME]

UT is a non profit- thus should be net zero or am I confused and we are semi-pro now???

I've always wondered what the beach looked like from under the sand.

In fact, Tennessee took the biggest fall on our list, down 25% to $63 million, because its academic contributions were significantly curtailed last year. Firing former head coach Derek Dooley turned out to be an expensive affair, and his staff’s buyout costs forced the Tennessee athletic department to stabilize its other expenses. As a result, Volunteers athletics went from being one of the nation’s biggest academic supporters, regularly contributing over $6 million annually, to providing just $1.3 million last year.

 

[DD4ME]

And in regards to me mentioning UF keeping Muschamp. Despite how awful he is both in his recent record and facial expressions.

This is particularly true for the top SEC schools. Florida led the way last year, contributing $7.2 million to academic programming, with $1.5 million of that earmarked for non-athletic scholarships. Alabama wasn’t far behind, providing nearly $6.5 million to the university to help pay for scholarships, faculty support and the school’s Acts of Kindness fund.

 

[DD4ME]

Figure 1 year for Butch for every million UTAD had to cut from academic support. ~5

Just my 2 cents especially if the guy is a class act and he is.

 

[ajvol01]

You could be right. But Rivals has been the better site and have a track record. 247's lack of history would seem to make them a little less reliable.

Rivals definitely lost something when bought out by Yahoo. I think they cut a bunch of people too. Still I think they have more people working the field for them than any of the others.

Apparently a lot of former Rivals employees now work for 247

 

[ajvol01]

I haven't done the research myself but Daj (the resident statistician) has said that UT's attrition over that period wasn't out of the norm.

You could argue that development has been lacking and specifically development toward what Jones wants out of a player.

Not sure what the "norm" is, but the attrition numbers for 2011 and 2012 recruits not final yet.

Running totals below for 2010-2012

2012 Attrition: 9/22 (41%, 3.33 Star average)

Deion Bonner 4 stars
Davante Bourque 4 stars
Daniel Gray 3 stars
Alden Hill 3 stars
Justin Meredith 3 stars
Dante Phillips 4 stars
Darrington Sentimore 3 stars
Trent Taylor 3 stars
Quenshaun Watson 3 stars


2011 Attrition: 11/27 (41%, 3.36 star average)

DeAnthony Arnett 4 stars
Cameron Clear 4 stars
Maurice Couch 4 stars
Vincent Dallas 3 stars
Izauea Lanier 4 stars
Pat Martin 4 stars
Alan Posey 3 stars
Tom Smith 3 stars
Tino Thomas 3 stars
Allan Carson 2 stars
Christian Harris 3 stars

2010 Attrition: 11/27 (41%, 3.42 Star average), *Failed to qualify: 4/27 (15%, 3.75 Star average)

John Brown 4 stars *
Dave Clark 4 stars *
Raiques Crump 2 stars
Marcques Dixon 3 stars *
Channing Fugate 3 stars
Martaze Jackson 3 stars
Eddrick Loften 4 stars *
Ted Meline 4 stars
Matt Milton 4 stars
Nash Nance 2 stars
Da'Rick Rogers 5 stars

EDIT: Added Allan Carson & Christian Harris to 2011

 

[gunner]

Not sure what the "norm" is, but the attrition numbers for 2011 and 2012 recruits not final yet.

Running totals below for 2010-2012

2012 Attrition: 9/22 (41%, 3.33 Star average)

Deion Bonner 4 stars
Davante Bourque 4 stars
Daniel Gray 3 stars
Alden Hill 3 stars
Justin Meredith 3 stars
Dante Phillips 4 stars
Darrington Sentimore 3 stars
Trent Taylor 3 stars
Quenshaun Watson 3 stars


2011 Attrition: 9/27 (33%, 3.56 star average)

DeAnthony Arnett 4 stars
Cameron Clear 4 stars
Maurice Couch 4 stars
Vincent Dallas 3 stars
Izauea Lanier 4 stars
Pat Martin 4 stars
Alan Posey 3 stars
Tom Smith 3 stars
Tino Thomas 3 stars

2010 Attrition: 12/27 (44%, 3.42 Star average), *Failed to qualify: 4/27 (15%, 3.75 Star average)

John Brown 4 stars *
Dave Clark 4 stars *
Raiques Crump 2 stars
Marcques Dixon 3 stars *
Channing Fugate 3 stars
Martaze Jackson 3 stars
Eddrick Loften 4 stars *
Ted Meline 4 stars
Matt Milton 4 stars
Nash Nance 2 stars
Marques Pair 3 stars
Da'Rick Rogers 5 stars

This is very telling if you don't recruit like Bama, you have to be able to get them in school and keep them there in the program until they are seniors. Juniors and Seniors are bigger, are bigger, stronger, and faster than Freshmen, especially if they have been redshirted.

 

[thetnastyVFL]

there's no reason to even have this conversation. unless Butch is an incompetent coach, people shouldn't be talking about his leash

 

[photovol]

Butch appears to be on an expandable leash at present, next year he will use the traditional leash and have no wiggle room.
Get it Done Butch!

 

[gogators13]

5 years total. Gives him time to find the right players for his system.

 

[knoxvols11]

I still say he has to have 8 wins next year and one of them a bowl win.

 

[sjt18]

I respect all of your post sjt, but Fulmer, Kiffin, and Dooley didn't have as hard of a sell......when compared to what CBJ and staff have inherited. By the time CBJ and staff got to Knoxville, it was a total dumpster fire with mattresses. So CBJ recruiting at this level now, is comparable to Fulmer or Kiffin recruiting 25 5*.

Thanks. The feeling is shared.

Fulmer certainly didn't but Kiffin nor Dooley inherited a situation any better than what Jones did with one exception. Kiffin left Dooley a solid class to try to build on. Fulmer didn't leave one to Kiffin and Dooley didn't leave one to Jones.

Interesting that you should mention mattresses since they were literally burning when Dooley was being hired.

The results on the field may turn out to be extraordinary. Maybe a bunch of guys in the '15 class will get bumps or somehow UT will gain 4/5* players and lose 3* between now and NSD.

My point simply math. A guy earlier said Jones was fine if he keeps bringing in top 10 classes. The current class is not on course to be top 10.

 

[sjt18]

And that 2012 team was easily a 9-10 win with the right coaching staff. Very disappointing that year

Absolutely true. Gross underachievement of the talent they had.

 

[sjt18]

Apparently a lot of former Rivals employees now work for 247

I had read that elsewhere. Hopefully they'll continue to build a reliable track record.

 

[UTRavens]

Not sure what the "norm" is, but the attrition numbers for 2011 and 2012 recruits not final yet.

Running totals below for 2010-2012

2012 Attrition: 9/22 (41%, 3.33 Star average)

Deion Bonner 4 stars
Davante Bourque 4 stars
Daniel Gray 3 stars
Alden Hill 3 stars
Justin Meredith 3 stars
Dante Phillips 4 stars
Darrington Sentimore 3 stars
Trent Taylor 3 stars
Quenshaun Watson 3 stars


2011 Attrition: 9/27 (33%, 3.56 star average)

DeAnthony Arnett 4 stars
Cameron Clear 4 stars
Maurice Couch 4 stars
Vincent Dallas 3 stars
Izauea Lanier 4 stars
Pat Martin 4 stars
Alan Posey 3 stars
Tom Smith 3 stars
Tino Thomas 3 stars

2010 Attrition: 11/27 (41%, 3.42 Star average), *Failed to qualify: 4/27 (15%, 3.75 Star average)

John Brown 4 stars *
Dave Clark 4 stars *
Raiques Crump 2 stars
Marcques Dixon 3 stars *
Channing Fugate 3 stars
Martaze Jackson 3 stars
Eddrick Loften 4 stars *
Ted Meline 4 stars
Matt Milton 4 stars
Nash Nance 2 stars
Da'Rick Rogers 5 stars

And this is why you can't just look at Dooley's class rankings and say he didn't do a bad job. He took on 4* recruits with major character/academic issues who other programs backed off of. Just look at the three 4*s on that list from 2012 - that says it all.

Oh, and it's obviously better to look at enrollment than it is to just looked at the class ranking. Our 2014 class enrolled 32 of 32 players. That's pretty incredible.

 

[sjt18]

And this is why you can't just look at Dooley's class rankings and say he didn't do a bad job. He took on 4* recruits with major character/academic issues who other programs backed off of. Just look at the three 4*s on that list from 2012 - that says it all.

The problem with this is we don't know yet what Jones' class is going to do. We all hope they'll be great and stay on the team. But we just don't know. Two of the five 4* that Jones signed in 13 plus an Elite 11 QB are already gone. Most if not all of us here really believed they'd be the kind of players that would bring UT back. I don't know of anyone who wasn't excited about the prospects of Carr or Harris playing opposite North.

We may never know all the reasons why Ferguson left but most of us were excited about his potential. The same was true when Dooley signed highly rated players, Kiffin did, or Fulmer did. As bad as Dooley performed, he really never came close to signing a class as overrated as Fulmer's 07 class or the one Fulmer and Kiffin shared in 09.

Oh, and it's obviously better to look at enrollment than it is to just looked at the class ranking. Our 2014 class enrolled 32 of 32 players. That's pretty incredible.

There's no doubt that's an exceptional accomplishment... and we still don't know how many of them will be as great as we hope they are.

 

[coach12]

To answer the OP's question:

Currently Butch is holding the leash and picks who he wants to put the collar on.

Big orange wave is gaining momentum every day.

 

[ajvol01]

The problem with this is we don't know yet what Jones' class is going to do. We all hope they'll be great and stay on the team. But we just don't know. Two of the five 4* that Jones signed in 13 plus an Elite 11 QB are already gone. Most if not all of us here really believed they'd be the kind of players that would bring UT back. I don't know of anyone who wasn't excited about the prospects of Carr or Harris playing opposite North.

We may never know all the reasons why Ferguson left but most of us were excited about his potential. The same was true when Dooley signed highly rated players, Kiffin did, or Fulmer did. As bad as Dooley performed, he really never came close to signing a class as overrated as Fulmer's 07 class or the one Fulmer and Kiffin shared in 09.

There's no doubt that's an exceptional accomplishment... and we still don't know how many of them will be as great as we hope they are.

You're indicting Jones based on Dooley recruits that he had 9 weeks and 1 assistant coach (Graham) to keep committed.

Butch did what he could to salvage the class and improve it, but hard to build relationships in such a short window. I'm impressed he got Dobbs - easy to see that Josh was a much more important recruit in hindsight.

Dooley gets all the credit for 2010 class that Kiffin recruited even though Chaney & Lance Thompson were retained from LK's staff.

Dooley's highest rated class was 2010 - his avg rivals rating dropped each yr (3.44, 3.41, 3.28) - Butch's first class was 3.19, but this year he reversed the trend (3.65) and was significantly better than all of Dooley's signing classes.

It is interesting to consider 2010 as a Kiffin class and 2013 as a Dooley class - gives me even more faith in the future of Vol football under Butch.