Coach Martin

#51
#51
05_never_again said:
That's an interesting stat that sounds impressive but also is an indication that the ceiling for a lot of programs is the Sweet 16. If the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 is as far as a bunch of programs in your conference have ever gone, that isn't an indicator of a strong conference.

For example, the furthest Tennessee has gone in the tournament is the Elite 8, and we did that once. If we are having a football discussion about a program and their single best season was a year in which they finished in the top 8 in the country, we'd say they have a bad football program, and we'd be correct. In the SEC our standards of what makes a good basketball program are skewed. Vanderbilt is generally thought of as having a pretty good basketball program, right? Well, they've made the Elite 8 once and that was 51 years ago. That is as far as they've gone. Many of these SEC schools that made made Elite 8 or Final Four runs have done it only once or twice and are so far removed from those years. My point is that the success is inconsistent and very fleeting. Arkansas had a good run as a program in the mid 90s but hasn't gotten beyond the Round of 32 since 1996, for example. Does anybody think South Carolina is going to develop into a dominant basketball program because of last year?

The SEC does not have a good variety of teams that have won national titles. Florida has won a couple recently and Arkansas won one. It's dominated by Kentucky. Granted, the Pac 12's national title history is dominated by UCLA. But the ACC and Big 10 have variety and depth; even the Big East does (4 by 3 different schools and 9 runner-ups). Those conferences just have a larger number of schools that have good seasons more consistently.
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What's better, all 14 teams having the possibility to get to the Sweet 16 with 2-3 maybe getting farther or 4 teams out of 10-12 that can get farther but 6-8 teams that never sniff the tournament?
 
#52
#52
BigBadVol said:
You think CCM is better than CRB? Ok.😆
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Didnt say he was better. My argument is how unfairly we was treated while here. It funny to see how in the football forum everyone complains about how the admin runs things, the importance of what the players think, how CBJ is treated, but none of that stuff seens to matter when it involved Coach Martin was involved.
 
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#53
#53
whobethis16 said:
What's better, all 14 teams having the possibility to get to the Sweet 16 with 2-3 maybe getting farther or 4 teams out of 10-12 that can get farther but 6-8 teams that never sniff the tournament?
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Every ACC team has made the Sweet 16 too, by the way.

Anyway, SEC teams don't all have the possibility of reaching the Sweet 16 in any given year. The success is very fleeting - that is my point. The ACC and Big Ten don't have 6-8 teams every year that don't even sniff the tournament.

SEC:
Alabama: 2004
Arkansas: 1996
Auburn: 2003
Florida: 2017
Georgia: 1996
Kentucky: 2017
LSU: 2006
Mississippi St: 1996
Missouri: 2009
Ole Miss: 2001
South Carolina: 2017
Tennessee: 2014
Texas A&M: 2016
Vanderbilt: 2007

You have to go back many years for the last time 6 of those teams made the Sweet 16. South Carolina would have made it 7 without their miracle run last year. That's almost half the league. Just 3 different teams have made it into the Sweet 16 recently, which would be down to just 2 without South Carolina.

ACC:
Boston College: 2006
Clemson: 1997
Duke: 2016
Florida St: 2011
Georgia Tech: 2004
Louisville: 2015
Miami: 2016
NC State: 2015
North Carolina: 2017
Notre Dame: 2016
Pitt: 2009
Syracuse: 2016
Virginia: 2016
Virginia Tech: 1967
Wake Forest: 2004

Meanwhile in the ACC, 8 different schools have made it to the Sweet 16 just within the last few years.

Big Ten:
Illinois: 2005
Indiana: 2016
Iowa: 1999
Maryland: 2016
Michigan: 2017
Michigan St: 2015
Minnesota: 1997
Nebraska: never
Northwestern: never
Ohio St: 2013
Penn St: 2001
Purdue: 2017
Rutgers: 1979
Wisconsin: 2017

Admittedly, the Big Ten is overrated as a basketball conference. They have 2 teams that have never even made it into the Sweet 16. However, they do have 6 that have made it within the last few years.
 
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#54
#54
volfannbama said:
Didnt say he was better. My argument is how unfairly we was treated while here. It funny to see how in the football forum everyone complains about how the admin runs things, the importance of what the players think, how CBJ is treated, but none of that stuff seens to matter when it involved Coach Martin was involved.
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I have no doubt that he was treated unfairly (especially with the booster planes), but if he was recruiting at a high level and winning more games, then the administration would have gone to bat for him and compensated him. It also had to do with following Pearl's success.

But bottom line was that the year after Martin left was not looking promising with or without him. He wasn't able to recruit at UT like he ultimately did at Cal and now Mizzou.
 
#55
#55
05_never_again said:
That's an interesting stat that sounds impressive but also is an indication that the ceiling for a lot of programs is the Sweet 16. If the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 is as far as a bunch of programs in your conference have ever gone, that isn't an indicator of a strong conference.

For example, the furthest Tennessee has gone in the tournament is the Elite 8, and we did that once. If we are having a football discussion about a program and their single best season was a year in which they finished in the top 8 in the country, we'd say they have a bad football program, and we'd be correct. In the SEC our standards of what makes a good basketball program are skewed. Vanderbilt is generally thought of as having a pretty good basketball program, right? Well, they've made the Elite 8 once and that was 51 years ago. That is as far as they've gone. Many of these SEC schools that made made Elite 8 or Final Four runs have done it only once or twice and are so far removed from those years. My point is that the success is inconsistent and very fleeting. Arkansas had a good run as a program in the mid 90s but hasn't gotten beyond the Round of 32 since 1996, for example. Does anybody think South Carolina is going to develop into a dominant basketball program because of last year?

The SEC does not have a good variety of teams that have won national titles. Florida has won a couple recently and Arkansas won one. It's dominated by Kentucky. Granted, the Pac 12's national title history is dominated by UCLA. But the ACC and Big 10 have variety and depth; even the Big East does (4 by 3 different schools and 9 runner-ups). Those conferences just have a larger number of schools that have good seasons more consistently.
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Basketball has over 300 schools competing for the NCAAT and the top 8. Football has about 120 schools in D-1/BCS. An Elite 8 in basketball is about like a top 3 finish in football.

The SEC is one of the best conferences in every sport that they compete. In basketball, only two of 32 conferences have had more invitations to the NCAAT. Every school has a huge athletic budget and there are no easy wins in basketball.
 
#56
#56
VolGee4 said:
I have no doubt that he was treated unfairly (especially with the booster planes), but if he was recruiting at a high level and winning more games, then the administration would have gone to bat for him and compensated him. It also had to do with following Pearl's success.

But bottom line was that the year after Martin left was not looking promising with or without him. He wasn't able to recruit at UT like he ultimately did at Cal and now Mizzou.
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Maybe he would have recruited better if he could get to places he needed to be via booster planes, just like the other coaches?
 
#57
#57
Thunder Good-Oil said:
Basketball has over 300 schools competing for the NCAAT and the top 8. Football has about 120 schools in D-1/BCS. An Elite 8 in basketball is about like a top 3 finish in football.

The SEC is one of the best conferences in every sport that they compete. In basketball, only two of 32 conferences have had more invitations to the NCAAT. Every school has a huge athletic budget and there are no easy wins in basketball.
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Ok then...if a school's single best year was finishing 3rd in the country or top 5, we'd still say they weren't historically a great program with a track record of success. Especially if they had only reached the top 3 once or a few times in their entire history.
 
#58
#58
volfannbama said:
Maybe he would have recruited better if he could get to places he needed to be via booster planes, just like the other coaches?
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Ok, so I saw that you said that you don't follow recruiting. Basketball recruiting is done much earlier than football. He already had signed commits for the following year before the "petition" and booster airplane situation. It was inevitable that the following year was not going to be good. Martin needs elite talent for his offense, and he hadn't recruited it.
 
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#59
#59
VolGee4 said:
Ok, so I saw that you said that you don't follow recruiting. Basketball recruiting is done much earlier than football. He already had signed commits for the following year before the "petition" and booster airplane situation. It was inevitable that the following year was not going to be good. Martin needs elite talent for his offense, and he hadn't recruited it.
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Yeah, thats cool. Id rather be give a good man a fair chance than embarrassing the university based off unknowns.
 
#60
#60
VolGee4 said:
I have no doubt that he was treated unfairly (especially with the booster planes), but if he was recruiting at a high level and winning more games, then the administration would have gone to bat for him and compensated him. It also had to do with following Pearl's success.

But bottom line was that the year after Martin left was not looking promising with or without him. He wasn't able to recruit at UT like he ultimately did at Cal and now Mizzou.
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Jimmy Hyams/Hubbs said the plane issue was BS as well.... yes some boosters took back planes but that routinely happens at UT... they give and take back due to several reasons....and they are available at different times but Zo was never without access to planes to do his job
 
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#62
#62
volfannbama said:
Bball in the SEC has the potential to be very, very good. We have one of the all time great programs in UK. Lots of other teams are top notch or at least proven they can be, UF, USC, Arkansas, Vandy, Tennessee.

To be clear, im not an sec guy, i only like Tennessee, but the conference as a whole could be very good in bball.
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See, here I was thinking all along that you were a Bama fan, and now you go and refer to Kentucky as "we." Which is it, Bama football or UK basketball?


I am just messing with you.
 
#63
#63
volfannbama said:
People didnt like him cause he didnt act like Bruce. Martin was a stand up guy that got the most from his players. Of course, i dont know all the behind the scenes stuff, but i dont believe he was treated fairly. And BBALL, has been awful since he left.
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He was a standup guy. He did not get the most out of his players.
 
#65
#65
volfannbama said:
Maybe he would have recruited better if he could get to places he needed to be via booster planes, just like the other coaches?
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Some coaches actually make do with first class commercial and rental cars.
 
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#66
#66
butchna said:
Some coaches actually make do with first class commercial and rental cars.
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Yes, but only when that's the best available. When better is pulled for no reason other than he's not one to jump up on a table or paint his chest (and who knows, because of his skin, which is why he was never given a membership to Cherokee Country Club like all the other coaches except one before him), it's bad.

Edit: I may be misremembering Cuonzo and the country club, but the rest is true. I bet Buzz had no issues getting the best available, and we all know how horrible his record was.
 
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#67
#67
whobethis16 said:
Yes, but only when that's the best available. When better is pulled for no reason other than he's not one to jump up on a table or paint his chest (and who knows, because of his skin, which is why he was never given a membership to Cherokee Country Club like all the other coaches except one before him), it's bad.

Edit: I may be misremembering Cuonzo and the country club, but the rest is true. I bet Buzz had no issues getting the best available, and we all know how horrible his record was.
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Our major boosters require the coaches to climb up on dining room tables, paint themselves like clowns, and they don't like colored fellers? I did not know this. Thanks for your brilliant insight.
 
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#70
#70
Thunder Good-Oil said:
Our major boosters require the coaches to climb up on dining room tables, paint themselves like clowns, and they don't like colored fellers? I did not know this. Thanks for your brilliant insight.
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If the best was pulled from Cuonzo because of only the results on the court, why didn't Buzz get the best available pulled from him?
 
#71
#71
whobethis16 said:
If the best was pulled from Cuonzo because of only the results on the court, why didn't Buzz get the best available pulled from him?
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The best what? Aircraft? If that's what you mean it's because he had a ****ty, entitled, bad attitude and he he abused (flew off for interviews on the UT planes) the generosity and not because he is a black man. He even got pissed when there weren't enough seats available on the private aircraft to accommodate his entire family.
 
#72
#72
Thunder Good-Oil said:
The best what? Aircraft? If that's what you mean it's because he had a ****ty, entitled, bad attitude and he he abused (flew off for interviews on the UT planes) the generosity and not because he is a black man. He even got pissed when there weren't enough seats available on the private aircraft to accommodate his entire family.
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You mean the one that happened after losing resources?

Please provide some proof of this last statement.
 
#73
#73
whobethis16 said:
If the best was pulled from Cuonzo because of only the results on the court, why didn't Buzz get the best available pulled from him?
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That's just it.... they weren't taken from him.... he was still using boosters planes.... the boosters would let use them and their fuel for free.... when the boosters needed their plane then they were not available but there was always planes for Zo.... sometimes it was just a different one
 
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