Coach Z

[sjt18]

and the actual success/failure of this next recruiting class will be seen in a couple of years as well. Not hard to understand. A high ranking doesn't assure it's success, but having the best class by talent rating and #'s that UT has ever had isn't a negative right now.

More evasion. You cannot get all giddy about this recruiting class based on rankings while simultaneously ignoring the way the talent of the previous players was underutilized. That is inconsistency. A clear double standard.

You guys don't even really listen to Jones. After Oregon he was obviously shell shocked. He and his staff had been completely outcoached and his team totally overwhelmed. He blurted out that losing like that was totally unacceptable at UT... then proceeded to lose like that 3 more times.

Many were very sensitive to the idea that Dooley threw his players under the bus. But numerous times Jones complained about a lack of talent and speed... that's the same thing.

These guys aren't perfect. You need to get over that.

 

[Spartacavolus]

So now Vandy is a better team? Like I said a few posts ago, bipolar. UT was better because of recruiting services. Now Vandy is better because they have better coaching.

You and the other doofus deserve each other as you can't even keep track of your own bs. You just flipped your stance in a matter of a few posts.

I said Vandy was a better team. You said they weren't. Now, you say they are.

That sums it up and proves my point. Take your act elsewhere to somebody that can't see through it. Maybe to people who can't read.

 

[Spartacavolus]

More evasion. You cannot get all giddy about this recruiting class based on rankings while simultaneously ignoring the way the talent of the previous players was underutilized. That is inconsistency. A clear double standard.

dude, put me on ignore. You can't understand basic **** and I'm tired of you twisting everything to fit your agenda.
Giddy? gfy

 

[thadolphinman]

Would it at least be reasonable to expect them to improve over what the group that just got fired did? Would it not be reasonable to see some sign of tangible improvement with little regression after 10 months?

You guys keep setting up this straw man. (a form of lying btw)

No one I know of expected them to compete with Walmart... Bama. Most just expected them to be something better than homecoming fodder and to beat Vandy with two weeks to prepare and playing at home.

I didn't expect them to to do better than last year, because they didn't have anywhere near the talent that the staff had last year. You mean to tell me that the staff should have done better than last year's offense? Are you really that crazy? Compare the talent and experience they had last year to this year, couple that with the injuries we had and you still expected the offense to be better than last? You are a loon.

As for the defense, it was better than last year. They improved it with at least two walk-ons regularly playing in the secondary, two converted safety's at outside linebacker, a true freshman at corner, and underperforming defensive lineman who were on their fourth defensive line coach in FOUR YEARS, and third defensive scheme in THREE YEARS.

You keep saying they shouldn't be homecoming fodder. Who were they homecoming fodder too? Alabama, Auburn, and Oregon, who were by all accounts the Wal-Marts of college football. If we had lost by ten would that have made you happy? I guess to show coaching improvement against arguably the three best teams in college football, CBJ couldn't have lost to them by less than 20?

The thing you don't seem to understand is this. Vandy was a horrible loss, but Vandy isn't a bad team (you have know idea how hard it is to say that). Every coach in his first year loses to a team that he shouldn't.

You can't draw conclusion off coaching from the teams you say we were homecoming fodder too. If the talent and depth were even close to equal you would have a point, but it is way, way to early to draw a conclusion on coaching from those games. Wait til Butch has a full deck, then do it.

 

[sjt18]

So now Vandy is a better team? Like I said a few posts ago, bipolar. UT was better because of recruiting services. Now Vandy is better because they have better coaching.

They were better coached by far in this year's game. Instead of trying to evade again... how about just dealing with that. The players UT needed to win had not been developed and coached up over the season.

You and the other doofus deserve each other as you can't even keep track of your own bs. You just flipped your stance in a matter of a few posts.

More namecalling. How nice! That shows how right you are for sure.

I said Vandy was a better team. You said they weren't. Now, you say they are.

That sums it up and proves my point. Take your act elsewhere to somebody that can't see through it. Maybe to people who can't read.

Knowingly twisting someone's point in an effort to "win"... doesn't mean you've proven anything except desperation and dishonesty.

 

[oregonvol]

So now Vandy is a better team? Like I said a few posts ago, bipolar. UT was better because of recruiting services. Now Vandy is better because they have better coaching.

You and the other doofus deserve each other as you can't even keep track of your own bs. You just flipped your stance in a matter of a few posts.

I said Vandy was a better team. You said they weren't. Now, you say they are.

That sums it up and proves my point. Take your act elsewhere to somebody that can't see through it. Maybe to people who can't read.

Huh? I said they were in better shape because they have better coaches. I have said that since the game. Show me where I ever said they were more talented.

I did say your debate methodology was "willfully ignorant" and you keep holding up your end of that.

 

[thadolphinman]

Btw, I keep reading that CBJ didn't improve the talent on the roster. It seems this talent argument is based off the recruiting rankings of Dooley's and Kiffin's previous classes. If you make that argument, I ask you to go look at the players still left from those classes on this years roster. Also go look and see how many of the four stars are left from those classes. That might completely change your mind.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Your attempting to change the argument. We're talking about catching the ball, remember?

this turns into what Stj does. This was about catching the ball, now it turns into his same, idiotic, repetitive bull**** that has extended to the entire staff not coaching up talent, me being giddy about new recruits, and bragging about how great of a job the entire staff did all year, while supporting coaches that "throw players under the bus".
He wants to know why he get called names for posting such utter bull**** over and over while playing the victim? Because he can't be popped in the face and told to stfu, so it's the only option.
I'll debate with anyone and do quite often without issue. I can't handle that fool anymore as he extends the debate to things that aren't being debated and constantly accuses others of stances that aren't accurate, but as long as they fit his agenda, who cares.

 

[butchna]

Btw, I keep reading that CBJ didn't improve the talent on the roster. It seems this talent argument is based off the recruiting rankings of Dooley's and Kiffin's previous classes. If you make that argument, I ask you to go look at the players still left from those classes on this years roster. Also go look and see how many of the four stars are left from those classes. That might completely change your mind.

It won't
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[oregonvol]

Every coach in his first year loses to a team that he shouldn't.

Who did James Franklin lose to in his first year that he shouldn't have?
Gus Malzahn?
Gene Chizik?
Mark Richt?
Steve Spurrier?

In fact, if we're talking about historic rivals, with less talent and resources, playing at home, in a meaningful game that determines the length of your season...I can't think of many successful coaches who had as embarrassing a loss as that in their first year on the job.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Btw, I keep reading that CBJ didn't improve the talent on the roster. It seems this talent argument is based off the recruiting rankings of Dooley's and Kiffin's previous classes. If you make that argument, I ask you to go look at the players still left from those classes on this years roster. Also go look and see how many of the four stars are left from those classes. That might completely change your mind.

that doesn't matter. Only looking at Rivals recruiting rankings for the Kiffin and Dooley years matters. Don't look at who played/s, who left, who got injured, who panned out, who didn't, etc. That's not allowed when discussing the current talent level and depth. Don't consider we won't have any lbs, dbs, qb's, rb's, or wr's drafted this year. To add, only one DL in the next 2 years and one LB next year. That shows we have plenty of talent. Butch just isn't good enough to get them to the next level.

 

[sjt18]

I didn't expect them to to do better than last year, because they didn't have anywhere near the talent that the staff had last year.

So last year being one of the poorest coached, worst underperforming teams in UT history is the "standard" for you? How about trying Dooley's first year with a similar schedule and worse roster issues?

You mean to tell me that the staff should have done better than last year's offense?

You just keep on with the straw men, don't you? Worse, yes. Two TD's per game worse?

And how about the D? Jancek should be thankful for Sunseri setting the bar so low. If he hadn't... this year's D would have been the worst scoring D since at least 1945. They weren't playing with face masks the last time UT had a D as bad as this one and the one last year.

Now go ahead and try to deceive yourself into believing that is he best that could be done with the available talent.

Compare the talent and experience they had last year to this year, couple that with the injuries we had and you still expected the offense to be better than last? You are a loon.

You guys really do think getting frustrated and calling people names serves as a winning argument, huh?

Less experienced at WR and QB. More experienced at OL, RB, DL, LB, DB, and K. EVERY team in college football starts with units that are thinner and less experienced than they were the year before.

As for the defense, it was better than last year. They improved it with at least two walk-ons regularly playing in the secondary, two converted safety's at outside linebacker, a true freshman at corner, and underperforming defensive lineman who were on their fourth defensive line coach in FOUR YEARS, and third defensive scheme in THREE YEARS.

LOL. Better than last year. Worse than every other Vol D for the last 70 years. Keep finding bars low enough and you'll talk yourself into believing 5-7 is a grand success.

You keep saying they shouldn't be homecoming fodder. Who were they homecoming fodder too? Alabama, Auburn, and Oregon, who were by all accounts the Wal-Marts of college football. If we had lost by ten would that have made you happy?

Yes. At least happier. It would have shown some coaching skill to take an inferior team and give a better opponent some game. How many folks here probably including you have counted the UGA game as a good sign? I did/do. Unfortunately it was overwhelmed by poor performances.

They were beaten by 28 by Mizzou too... who has less talent according to the recruiting services than any other SEC except UK.

I guess to show coaching improvement against arguably the three best teams in college football, CBJ couldn't have lost to them by less than 20?

Oregon is nowhere close to top 3 this year. Yes. Showing up for at least one of those games and not getting beaten like they were an FCS school 4 times would have been a bit more encouraging. Just take a look at Oregon's schedule and note where UT fits with regard to loss margin.

Same for Bama. UT is right there with UK, Ark, Ga St, and Chattanooga... Woohoo!

Do you really want to argue that you wouldn't see more hope if UT had lost 20-7 like MSU did?

The thing you don't seem to understand is this. Vandy was a horrible loss, but Vandy isn't a bad team (you have know idea how hard it is to say that). Every coach in his first year loses to a team that he shouldn't.

No they don't. Dooley didn't and Dooley went on to prove he was an incompetent coach. But he didn't lose to anyone in his first year that he should have beaten. It actually took a couple of fluke plays to keep him from beating UNC and also LSU which would have been far more impressive as an upset than USCe this year.

You can't draw conclusion off coaching from the teams you say we were homecoming fodder too. If the talent and depth were even close to equal you would have a point, but it is way, way to early to draw a conclusion on coaching from those games. Wait til Butch has a full deck, then do it.

UT had MORE talent and depth than most of the teams I cited... that's why I cited them.

 

[Easttnken]

and just quickly, their depth and talent on the OL and DL was comparable to us, especially DL. Deeper at LB and more talented in the 2 deep. Deeper at WR and more talented in the first 6. Better and deeper at TE. RB is us or a push. And though they were down to 2nd and 3rd string dbs, they still weren't down to multiple walkons or track kids in the 2 deep as we were in some of our base packages.
Then again, that's reality. Go ahead and give me recruiting #'s from 2 years ago to support your argument, rather than look at reality.

But, we know that ALL of those highly rated players are still on the team. With 4 different coaches and staffs in 6 years, we didn't have any players leave early, transfer, or get dismissed from the team. We didn't play freshmen and walk ons on both offense and defense. And these players who under performed this year, or at least didn't meet expectations, can't possibly be expected to improve down the road, with a year's experience in the same system and being together as a unit.

Besides, even though Jones has only been here for 1 season, UT losing to Vandy 2 years in a row falls squarely on his shoulders.

 

[sjt18]

dude, put me on ignore. You can't understand basic **** and I'm tired of you twisting everything to fit your agenda.
Giddy? gfy

Nope. Having too much fun ripping those excuses and false arguments apart. I understand just fine... your points are really just that easy to disprove.

More class with the "gfy" thing. That proves what a big guy you are for sure. That proves intelligence and good reasoning skills if nothing else does.

 

[Lefteye]

Every single thread..... please make it stop!!!

 

[thadolphinman]

Sjt18, I don't have the time nor the breath to keep arguing with you. Believe what you want to believe, and continue to go after posters with your same, old, and tired argument. We obviously see two completely different things and nothing I say or that you say will get either of us to change our opinion.

It would be great to see some diversity out of your posts. I think you could bring a different side of the argument to this board, but all I see is your agenda getting in the way and I'm tired of hearing about how bad the coaches were this year. Have a good day, and on to ignore you go.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Nope. Having too much fun ripping those excuses and false arguments apart. I understand just fine... your points are really just that easy to disprove.

More class with the "gfy" thing. That proves what a big guy you are for sure. That proves intelligence and good reasoning skills if nothing else does.

the topic was catching the football and turns into your bs on every turn. Now, go manage your call center and get off my ass.

 

[Slingshot]

I really do not understand how this thread has turned into this.

Some are bashing coaches some are bashing players? Why?

In what way is bashing anyone helpful. Also saying UT had less talent and experience than previous teams is not bashing anyone. It's just what almost every sports analyst was also saying about team 117.

Anyone saying that it was poor coaching doesn't know what the hell they are talking about either. Your not a college football coach. Instead of forming your own opinions based on no experience listen to the sports analysts and commentators and such that have been following, and some playing the sport, for years. All they have to say is that UT is moving in the right direction under this coaching staff.

Oh I know some smart ass is going to say 5-7 is the right direction? It is if you watched the games. 2 plays away from 7 - 5 is the right direction. Also some fans are losing site that Jones had 30 recruiting days left to work with before he had even hired and moved his staff.

Were there some bad coaching calls? Sure.

Was there some poor execution by players? Sure.

Every team does it. Bashing anyone is not necessary and it does not improve the performance of our players or coaching staff. There I just wasted time out of my day to reply to this bull crap LOL.

 

[Lefteye]

the topic was catching the football and turns into your bs on every turn. Now, go manage your call center and get off my ass.

"Thank you for calling Broken Record, home of the say the same thing over and over again how can we help you?"

Coaches suck
Players are too talented to lose to Vandy
blah blah blah

 

[VOLINVONORE]

So last year being one of the poorest coached, worst underperforming teams in UT history is the "standard" for you? How about trying Dooley's first year with a similar schedule and worse roster issues?

You just keep on with the straw men, don't you? Worse, yes. Two TD's per game worse?

And how about the D? Jancek should be thankful for Sunseri setting the bar so low. If he hadn't... this year's D would have been the worst scoring D since at least 1945. They weren't playing with face masks the last time UT had a D as bad as this one and the one last year.

Now go ahead and try to deceive yourself into believing that is he best that could be done with the available talent.

You guys really do think getting frustrated and calling people names serves as a winning argument, huh?

Less experienced at WR and QB. More experienced at OL, RB, DL, LB, DB, and K. EVERY team in college football starts with units that are thinner and less experienced than they were the year before.

LOL. Better than last year. Worse than every other Vol D for the last 70 years. Keep finding bars low enough and you'll talk yourself into believing 5-7 is a grand success.

Yes. At least happier. It would have shown some coaching skill to take an inferior team and give a better opponent some game. How many folks here probably including you have counted the UGA game as a good sign? I did/do. Unfortunately it was overwhelmed by poor performances.

They were beaten by 28 by Mizzou too... who has less talent according to the recruiting services than any other SEC except UK.

Oregon is nowhere close to top 3 this year. Yes. Showing up for at least one of those games and not getting beaten like they were an FCS school 4 times would have been a bit more encouraging. Just take a look at Oregon's schedule and note where UT fits with regard to loss margin.

Same for Bama. UT is right there with UK, Ark, Ga St, and Chattanooga... Woohoo!

Do you really want to argue that you wouldn't see more hope if UT had lost 20-7 like MSU did?

No they don't. Dooley didn't and Dooley went on to prove he was an incompetent coach. But he didn't lose to anyone in his first year that he should have beaten. It actually took a couple of fluke plays to keep him from beating UNC and also LSU which would have been far more impressive as an upset than USCe this year.

UT had MORE talent and depth than most of the teams I cited... that's why I cited them.

As I have said before, you are full of yesterdays meals waiting to be expelled.

 

[Spartacavolus]

ftr, saying a kid is dropping too many balls is not bashing them, and there isn't a player or family member of a player that blames drops on a coach. If they do, they are mentally weak and need to play a different position or quit.

 

[LotteryPick]

I'm still baffled by the "UT has more talent than Mizzou" argument, when Mizzou was scoring at will against Auburn in the SEC championship.

 

[oregonvol]

I really do not understand how this thread has turned into this.

Some are bashing coaches some are bashing players? Why?

In what way is bashing anyone helpful. Also saying UT had less talent and experience than previous teams is not bashing anyone. It's just what almost every sports analyst was also saying about team 117.

Plenty of analysts picked us to go to a bowl. We were favorites in the Vanderbilt game. It's just silly revisionist thinking to say that everyone expected us to be this bad.

Anyone saying that it was poor coaching doesn't know what the hell they are talking about either. Your not a college football coach. Instead of forming your own opinions based on no experience listen to the sports analysts and commentators and such that have been following, and some playing the sport, for years. All they have to say is that UT is moving in the right direction under this coaching staff.

Sports analysts rarely call for a coach to be fired. Plenty said that Dooley was doing a swell job or just needed more time up until the very end. It proves nothing. And if you need to have been a college coach in order to criticize a college coach, then I guess you don't have any opinions on the players either, huh? Or were you a Div. 1 college football player? I guess you don't have any opinions about the President, since you've never been president, huh?

Oh I know some smart ass is going to say 5-7 is the right direction? It is if you watched the games. 2 plays away from 7 - 5 is the right direction. Also some fans are losing site that Jones had 30 recruiting days left to work with before he had even hired and moved his staff.

5-7 is the worst record we've had since most of us were born. I guess most of you somehow see significant improvement there. I don't know how.

2 plays away from 7-5. 3 plays away from 3-9. Doesn't matter. We were 5-7.

Were there some bad coaching calls? Sure.

Yep. Only most people get attacked for saying no more than this.

Was there some poor execution by players? Sure.

Yeah, I don't see anyone denying this, here. Just many people who want to pretend this is the only factor at play.

Every team does it. Bashing anyone is not necessary and it does not improve the performance of our players or coaching staff. There I just wasted time out of my day to reply to this bull crap LOL.

You do realize there is a difference between bashing and criticizing, right? For instance, if folks were on here calling Butch Jones and his staff names, like Spartacavolus and his ilk do with anyone who disagrees with them, that would be bashing. Saying that a coach did not do a good job is not bashing. If it is in your definition, then you might want to avoid all sports talk and the internet altogether.

Also, I didn't realize we were here to improve the performance of the players and staff. If that is the case, then I fail to see how ignoring problems that exist accomplishes that either.

 

[sjt18]

But, we know that ALL of those highly rated players are still on the team. With 4 different coaches and staffs in 6 years, we didn't have any players leave early, transfer, or get dismissed from the team. We didn't play freshmen and walk ons on both offense and defense. And these players who under performed this year, or at least didn't meet expectations, can't possibly be expected to improve down the road, with a year's experience in the same system and being together as a unit.

Can you guys argue honestly... ever?

No one asked them to do more than they should have with this roster. No one. Just improve. Just win 6 or 7 games.

No one that I know of has said anything about them not being able to improve later. I for one have said many times that I hope that some of what looked like incompetence and poor coaching decisions this year was actually an effort to hold some guys out for development purposes so things get better later.

I am TRYING to find a reason to believe in these guys. That's part of why the incessant excuses and blind faith bother me so much.

Besides, even though Jones has only been here for 1 season, UT losing to Vandy 2 years in a row falls squarely on his shoulders.

No. He's responsible for losing to them this year. Not last year. He's responsible for having a more talented roster, watching their starting secondary go out with injuries, playing not to lose, and then losing having had two weeks to prepare in the 17th week of the season.

 

[sjt18]

I'm still baffled by the "UT has more talent than Mizzou" argument, when Mizzou was scoring at will against Auburn in the SEC championship.

Mizzou was very well coached and had several years in their system. Those are factors that worked against UT.