Concerning the "Best Staff in the Country" jokes

I haven't noticed anything except I opened up a thread and I see you repeat yourself over and over. Keep away from the ff for the most part About **** that happened months ago, and things you have said daily/weekly since November.
Not answering the same people or exactly the same things... but yeah, when something is "true" it becomes boringly transcendant and repetitive.
Coaches have to coach better and we need more talent. Neither point is debatable.

On that we agree. Again, I HOPE... many of the failures we witnessed that looked like coaching or even a lack of talent were stubborn devotion to a high execution system.

Cutcliffe was more adaptable to the talent but was a master at getting discipline and execution. It would be hard to argue that he didn't squeeze every drop out of Duke's roster last season.

Hopefully Jones is that... but just less adaptable. That will be OK if it is true after players have developed enough to execute well.
 
Without rereading all of this rehashing of the argument, can anyone tell me if any of you proposed a real, feasible solution? My expectations are low, but just in case, I thought I would ask.
 
Not answering the same people or exactly the same things... but yeah, when something is "true" it becomes boringly transcendant and repetitive.

On that we agree. Again, I HOPE... many of the failures we witnessed that looked like coaching or even a lack of talent were stubborn devotion to a high execution system.

Cutcliffe was more adaptable to the talent but was a master at getting discipline and execution. It would be hard to argue that he didn't squeeze every drop out of Duke's roster last season.

Hopefully Jones is that... but just less adaptable. That will be OK if it is true after players have developed enough to execute well.

The future Pro Bowl blocking tailback Mark Levine, starting over Jamal Lewis in Peyton' s last year, and the practical exclusion of the TE in Cut's first tenure, would refute your arguments...he eventually got less stubborn in those areas after he took the Ole Miss job...good thing you weren't grading him like you have Butch...after ONE season :censored:
 
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The future Pro Bowl blocking tailback Mark Levine, starting over Jamal Lewis in Peyton' s last year, and the practical exclusion of the TE in Cut's first tenure, would refute your arguments...he eventually got less stubborn in those areas after he took the Ole Miss job...good thing you weren't grading him like you have Butch...after ONE season :censored:

It was Fulmer that played seniority over talent.
 
No. Because you are using an argument that is a valid REASON for UT not to compete for the East but totally invalid as an excuse for not making a bowl game.
It's perfectly valid. UT had one of the least talented rosters in the SEC and had a disproportionately difficult schedule to boot. Not that complicated.

No. They didn't have less talent than 7 of their opponents.
Yes, they did.

Oregon
Florida
Georgia
South Carolina
Alabama
Missouri
Auburn

That "garbage" roster in just the '14 draft will have more than 5 players drafted. It was not deep and did have holes. That makes an expectation of competing for the East unreasonable.
You sure about that number? I checked a big board that only had 3 players in the top 300 and a few 7-round mocks that only had 3-4.

When you have only a few NFL-caliber upperclassmen on the entire roster, you're not talented enough to be anything other than an SEC bottom feeder.

But they had great talent on the OL, good talent at RB, 4 talented options at QB, size and athleticism on the DL... they had some things to work with.
The fact that you're trying to spin the QB position as a positive is a load of Grade A BS. Second worst QB situation in the SEC.

Of those things you mentioned as positives, the OL is the only one that stills holds up when you compare us to the 13 other SEC schools. Remember, our talent should not be judged in a vacuum - it's all relative.
 
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Without rereading all of this rehashing of the argument, can anyone tell me if any of you proposed a real, feasible solution? My expectations are low, but just in case, I thought I would ask.

Yeah. Develop players well in the offseason and then coach better. I know that is simplistic but it really doesn't go much deeper than that. There are many things involved in that of course... but its pretty basic.
 
The future Pro Bowl blocking tailback Mark Levine, starting over Jamal Lewis in Peyton' s last year, and the practical exclusion of the TE in Cut's first tenure, would refute your arguments...he eventually got less stubborn in those areas after he took the Ole Miss job...good thing you weren't grading him like you have Butch...after ONE season :censored:

The bad thing though is that you either do not understand what I am writing or are conveniently misinterpretting my words.

Jones "grade" right now is "incomplete".

If you want to "refute" my argument then you don't look at players or particular position group use. You look at production and results. In the last 20 years, UT's O has produced over 400 pts 8 times. Cut did it 6 of the 8 years he was OC at UT. It happened once more under Sanders and once under Chaney last year.

IOW's, for 20 years UT pretty much hasn't had great offense without Cutcliffe.
 
It's perfectly valid. UT had one of the least talented rosters in the SEC and had a disproportionately difficult schedule to boot. Not that complicated.
The latter part is true. The first part is not. The coaches did not utilize the available talent to its potential. And no... it isn't that complicated.


By the second qtr, UF no longer held a talent advantage. They had lost an OL, 3 or 4 DB's, and their starting QB.

Similarly, UGA's roster was pretty well decimated between prior injuries and those that occurred during the game.
South Carolina
You can look at the data that Daj brings if it suits you. Those rosters even factoring in attrition were pretty closely matched. Spurrier has been there longer and played a much easier schedule though. That win really should not have been surprising to anyone. It was an accurate reflection of how closely matched those teams were talent wise AND the match up advantages UT had.
Nope. They know and play their system... and to date, Pinkel has proven himself to be the better coach. Mizzou is NOT a team that won because of overwhelming talent. They won in spite of a lack of it. Their schedule also laid out very nice.

You sure about that number? I checked a big board that only had 3 players in the top 300 and a few 7-round mocks that only had 3-4.
No. I'm going off a report several weeks ago that predicted more than 5 Vols to be drafted with 3 or 4 OL's.

When you have only a few NFL-caliber upperclassmen on the entire roster, you're not talented enough to be anything other than an SEC bottom feeder.
That's interesting. Just looked at the CBS draft rankings. Mizzou and UT both had six player predicted to be drafted... as does USCe. Auburn has 6 as well. UGA only has 4. Oregon has 7.


The fact that you're trying to spin the QB position as a positive is a load of Grade A BS. Second worst QB situation in the SEC.
There's simply no way to determine that based on what we have "seen" from the QB's. The receiver play was so poor that it would be impossible to call any of the QB's who played "failures".

It is NOT BS or even close to it. All four of those guys have talent and were recruited by good programs in addition to UT.

Of those things you mentioned as positives, the OL is the only one that stills holds up when you compare us to the 13 other SEC schools. Remember, our talent should not be judged in a vacuum - it's all relative.

You assume that the coaching was on par with those other 13 schools. I don't. I am looking for PROOF that they can coach at the SEC level. So far, they have for two games- USCe and UGA.
 
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BTW, if Jones did not think he had someone who could step up at the QB position he would be pushing much harder to get a QB in this class. There is VERY little evidence that he's doing that. The only two guys I have seen mentioned recently are both projects. They're not guys who could come in and start this fall.

So if you aren't comfortable with the QB talent... your argument is with Jones more than me.
 
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It amazes me that all these talented players come to UT and rather than think they are being coached or put in a position to succeed it's ASSumed they just forgot how to play. As for qb, there is no way in hell all four happen to be that bad. Qb coach an off coord can have a great affect on a qb.
 
The bad thing though is that you either do not understand what I am writing or are conveniently misinterpretting my words.

Jones "grade" right now is "incomplete".

If you want to "refute" my argument then you don't look at players or particular position group use. You look at production and results. In the last 20 years, UT's O has produced over 400 pts 8 times. Cut did it 6 of the 8 years he was OC at UT. It happened once more under Sanders and once under Chaney last year.

IOW's, for 20 years UT pretty much hasn't had great offense without Cutcliffe.


Cutcliffe is a great coach...is my point...and with more talent at his disposal,made errors in utilizing....much more talent than what Jones managed in a new system...I agree with your INCOMPLETE remark but it seems tinged with a fatalistic bent...like Butch's failure is set in concrete...I'll work on my interpretation skills :salute:
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The latter part is true. The first part is not. The coaches did not utilize the available talent to its potential. And no... it isn't that complicated.
What potential? What potential does a team have when every single recruiting class leading up to it has been torn to shreds?

By the second qtr, UF no longer held a talent advantage. They had lost an OL, 3 or 4 DB's, and their starting QB.


Similarly, UGA's roster was pretty well decimated between prior injuries and those that occurred during the game.[/QUOTE]
That's great. They still had more talent than UT, even after those injuries.

You can look at the data that Daj brings if it suits you.
Do you have a link to it?

Those rosters even factoring in attrition were pretty closely matched. Spurrier has been there longer and played a much easier schedule though. That win really should not have been surprising to anyone. It was an accurate reflection of how closely matched those teams were talent wise AND the match up advantages UT had.
Did you seriously type that with a straight face? It's not even close.

Nope. They know and play their system... and to date, Pinkel has proven himself to be the better coach. Mizzou is NOT a team that won because of overwhelming talent. They won in spite of a lack of it. Their schedule also laid out very nice.
What makes you assume that it was the "system", and not the coach's ability to evaluate talent? Missouri has brought quite a few great players into the fold over the years - ones with great talent that were overlooked during the recruiting process. The same obviously cant be said for Tennessee's recent recruiting classes.

That's interesting. Just looked at the CBS draft rankings. Mizzou and UT both had six player predicted to be drafted... as does USCe. Auburn has 6 as well. UGA only has 4. Oregon has 7.
First of all, you have an odd definition of "predicted to be drafted". The draft only has 255 picks, and you're including two prospects that are ranked about 60 spots behind.

Now, the premise of college talent being directly correlated to NFL draft status is highly inaccurate to begin with (hence why a fantastic player like Connor Shaw is ranked 229th), since there are so many players with skill sets that are a great fit for college but not so great for the NFL. But anyway, here are the projection for players who fit inside the top 255.

Tennessee: 49, 99, 109, 195
Missouri: 11, 67, 102, 158, 209
South Carolina: 2, 70, 78, 83, 229
Auburn: 4, 48, 60, 135, 137
Georgia: 132, 172
Oregon: 91, 100, 186, 218
Florida: 57, 68, 81, 116, 151, 188

Missouri, SC, Florida and Auburn have a pretty clear edge. Georgia and Oregon don't, but Oregon makes up for it with a wealth of solid players who weren't quite projected to be drafted. If you look at the overall list and see the context of where the players are ranked, everyone but Georgia has a clear edge.

But why are you only looking at 2014 projections? That's pretty shallow and far from an overall indicator of a team's talent level. What about 2015 and 2016? All Tennessee has in those classes, according to CBS, are the following:

2015 (rising seniors): #14 RB, #18 TE, #16 OG, #3 ILB, #19 OLB, #25 CB
2016 (rising juniors): #28 WR, #3 FS, #7 SS

If we applied those positional rankings to where they would rank overall in 2014, only two would be drafted: Johnson (87th, though he was getting 2nd round talk this year), Coleman (170th), Lane(177th) and Maggitt (204th). Since Maggitt didn't play a down last year, that's three juniors last year who are projected to be drafted and only one who even approaches the top ten at his position. Not good.

In 2016, McNeil and Randolph rank highly at their positions...but that's pretty much it. Along with Howard, they're not just the only ones who are projected to be drafted, but only one other player is projected in the top 25 at his position (Mack Crowder, who would rank in the 500s if this was projected to 2014). Also not good.

It might not look so bad if you just look at the projected 2014 draftees, but there's obviously much more to it than that. The future draft projections go to show that.

There's simply no way to determine that based on what we have "seen" from the QB's. The receiver play was so poor that it would be impossible to call any of the QB's who played "failures".
Oh, so we had bad receivers too.

It is NOT BS or even close to it. All four of those guys have talent and were recruited by good programs in addition to UT.
It is most definitely BS when you apply it to the context of the 2013 SEC, which was especially loaded with great quarterbacks. Which SEC quarterbacks from last year do you consider Worley or Dobbs (as a freshman) to be better than?

You assume that the coaching was on par with those other 13 schools. I don't. I am looking for PROOF that they can coach at the SEC level. So far, they have for two games- USCe and UGA.
I don't assume it was on par. I don't assume anything. That's why I've always considered it "Year Zero". The Vols of future seasons are going to be so fundamentally different from the 2013 team that any attempt to draw any kind of conclusion or "hunch" about Jones based on the 2013 team's performance is an exercise in futility.
 
When a post becomes 4 threads that need to be merged...on the next Geraldo :detective:
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Cutcliffe is a great coach...is my point...and with more talent at his disposal,made errors in utilizing....much more talent than what Jones managed in a new system...
Cut didn't have "much more talent" in his last season at UT. He didn't have a WR that even sniffed the NFL that caught more than 15 passes in the year. And slow? His starting WR's were L Taylor, A Rogers, and J Briscoe... now THAT is SLOW. He did have Foster and a good OL.... but Jones had a good OL and a couple of good RB's.

With that... he scored over 32 ppg with 402 ypg of total O.

Ainge was the QB and couldn't cut it in the NFL either.

I agree with your INCOMPLETE remark but it seems tinged with a fatalistic bent...like Butch's failure is set in concrete...I'll work on my interpretation skills :salute:
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Not at all. I HOPE they are better than they showed this year and use a "system" that simply requires more discipline and execution than can be taught in one year to the whole team at once. I actually see some evidence of that on O which is why I am more optimistic about the O going forward.

Jancek looks like a VERY questionable hire.
 
Was talking about those shortcomings in the 98 season fwiw...as far as the second time around,it will probably bear out that with Marquez in the equation that last year's fleet of receivers was more NFL projection worthy...but you're comparing a group that had been practicing and playing IN THE SAME SYSTEM...withaveteranqbinainge....to A CREW OF FIRST YEAR AND RELATIVELY INEXPERIENCED to a radically different system....withoutainge...apples to cumquats :yu:
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What potential? What potential does a team have when every single recruiting class leading up to it has been torn to shreds?
You are prone to extreme exaggeration, aren't you?




That's great. They still had more talent than UT, even after those injuries.
Not by much... and I would call that game a "win" for the coaches. They flat outcoached Richt and staff.


Do you have a link to it?
No. But he has posted it several times so you should be able to search it pretty easy.


Did you seriously type that with a straight face? It's not even close.
You can be ignorant if you like. I can't fix that for you.


What makes you assume that it was the "system", and not the coach's ability to evaluate talent?
Consistency. Oregon does it consistently. They have a long track record of finding underrated guys who make their system go. MU is MUCH more spotty in their "evals".

Missouri has brought quite a few great players into the fold over the years - ones with great talent that were overlooked during the recruiting process. The same obviously cant be said for Tennessee's recent recruiting classes.
I am tired of fighting this kind of ignorance. I could look up the facts for you... but am not going to. If you are determined to be ignorant then that's fine.


First of all, you have an odd definition of "predicted to be drafted". The draft only has 255 picks, and you're including two prospects that are ranked about 60 spots behind.
I included the same for all the teams I mentioned. If they were marked "7/FA" I counted them.

Now, the premise of college talent being directly correlated to NFL draft status is highly inaccurate to begin with (hence why a fantastic player like Connor Shaw is ranked 229th), since there are so many players with skill sets that are a great fit for college but not so great for the NFL. But anyway, here are the projection for players who fit inside the top 255.
Yes and no. But remember that you are the one who claimed that a supposed low number of potential draftees proved that UT had no talent.

Coaching made a pretty big difference for Shaw.

Missouri, SC, Florida and Auburn have a pretty clear edge. Georgia and Oregon don't, but Oregon makes up for it with a wealth of solid players who weren't quite projected to be drafted. If you look at the overall list and see the context of where the players are ranked, everyone but Georgia has a clear edge.
IOW's, if it helps your argument then it is meaningful but if it doesn't.. it don't? Sorry. Can't buy.

But why are you only looking at 2014 projections? That's pretty shallow and far from an overall indicator of a team's talent level. ... that's three juniors last year who are projected to be drafted and only one who even approaches the top ten at his position. Not good....It might not look so bad if you just look at the projected 2014 draftees, but there's obviously much more to it than that. The future draft projections go to show that.
Now here is where we agree about the condition if not the implications. Jones inherited a talented Sr class. But the next two years of recruiting were spotty and had some significant attrition. IOW's, his opportunity was '13. It becomes more difficult from a talent/experience point for the next year or two. HOWEVER, he will STILL be judged on progress in those years. The '13 roster had the talent to win 6 or 7 games. That extra win or two would have made a big difference for Jones if the next two accurately reflect the youth of his rosters. If he goes into '15 with two consecutive losing seasons... he'll be in trouble and under tremendous pressure to prove himself. It will be a close repeat of Dooley.

BTW, with more talent in those in between classes the expectations would have been higher. Six wins was pretty minimal. It didn't demand a herculean effort... just a good solid job of coaching.

It is most definitely BS when you apply it to the context of the 2013 SEC, which was especially loaded with great quarterbacks. Which SEC quarterbacks from last year do you consider Worley or Dobbs (as a freshman) to be better than?
Which one do you think would have done substantially better with the WR play UT had? Would Worley have been successful with the WR's of UGA, Bama, LSU, TAM, etc? Mizzou even? Yes. I think he would have done very well.

Dobbs... I am not sure about but probably.


I don't assume it was on par. I don't assume anything.
Yes you have... You ASSUME that the failures were all talent related. I say it was both talent and coaching... and you have a volatile reaction as if I had slapped your grandma or something.

That's why I've always considered it "Year Zero". The Vols of future seasons are going to be so fundamentally different from the 2013 team that any attempt to draw any kind of conclusion or "hunch" about Jones based on the 2013 team's performance is an exercise in futility.
No. Not necessarily a conclusion but a "hunch" or indication? Yes. A coach is responsible for getting the best out of his roster whether it is loaded or wanting. Jones simply didn't do that. It does not mean he will never do it. Simply that he didn't do it after taking a MAJOR step up in competition entering the SEC.
 
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Was talking about those shortcomings in the 98 season fwiw...as far as the second time around,it will probably bear out that with Marquez in the equation that last year's fleet of receivers was more NFL projection worthy...but you're comparing a group that had been practicing and playing IN THE SAME SYSTEM...withaveteranqbinainge....to A CREW OF FIRST YEAR AND RELATIVELY INEXPERIENCED to a radically different system....withoutainge...apples to cumquats :yu:
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Taylor had 14 receptions for 101 yds in his career entering 2007. Rogers had six receptions for 87 yards. Briscoe had 9 for 133. Cut had returned just the year before and played a completely different style with Meachen, Swain, and Smith as his big 3.

The situations were VERY similar. Cut chose to use less talented guys with experience. D Moore, Stocker, and G Jones were underclassmen on that roster. The guys he played didn't have a ton of game experience either but had more development.

Jones/Jake chose to shun experience players like Dallas in favor of more talented young guys. Maybe it was a poor decision or philosophical flaw or a calculation that will pay dividends going forward... we don't know yet. We do know that it impacted this season in a negative way.
 
The only comparisons between coaching staffs that actually matter is how Jones did against the rest of the SEC this season.

The 5-7 record suggests the coaching staff was not "the best in America" this year.

Or even the best in the state.
 
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