Controversial subject: (Might be to rough to discuss)

#26
#26
My internet connection is kind of rough right now, but I will try and keep up with the convo. Heres my background I have been in Baghdad this time since Jan. 2nd I am a civilian contractor working on computer software for the army. I was over here from Nov. 02- Aug 03 also as a member of the 3rd ID and I served as an Intelligence Analyst. So with the job I have now and what I did in the military I did see alot of stuff as it happened. I cant get into alot of the particulars but I hear the argument alot about what is the difference between Iran and Iraq and the honest answer is Iraq was easier. Iran would and still would be a nightmare compared to whats going on here. But the fact of the matter is change is needed in bothe places along with other rogue nations around the globe. Thats my two cents I suppose.
 
#27
#27
Why can't you compare it to World War II reconstruction?

It is the same exact notion of the every thing gloom and doom nothing good coming about bring our servicemen home and save our money.
 
#28
#28
(OrangeEmpire @ Jun 16 said:
Why can't you compare it to World War II reconstruction?

It is the same exact notion of the every thing gloom and doom nothing good coming about bring our servicemen home and save our money.

Read my post. Simple. Different conditions, politics, origins, economics, etc. On the flipside tell me how they are the exact same?
 
#29
#29
If it has to be compared to something Bosnia is the best comparison. Three religious factions in a country, war criminals in both cases i.e. Milosevic and Hussein. And the massacre at Srebenicia is alot like the massacre of the Kurds. So I predict in ten years it will be much like Bosnia is today.
 
#30
#30
Read my post. Simple. Different conditions, politics, origins, economics, etc. On the flipside tell me how they are the exact same?

Read my post. Simple. The gloom and doom from reporters is the comparison I am making. Calm down sparky, it will be ok.

*Did I ever say exactly the same, I might have...... :banghead:

I agree that closest thing of comparison would be Bosnia.
 
#31
#31
(jaybird_1981 @ Jun 16 said:
If it has to be compared to something Bosnia is the best comparison. Three religious factions in a country, war criminals in both cases i.e. Milosevic and Hussein. And the massacre at Srebenicia is alot like the massacre of the Kurds. So I predict in ten years it will be much like Bosnia is today.

I would agree but expand it beyond to Yugoslavia as a whole. You might wind up seeing it completely divided into purely autonomous ethnic states. Right now we've already boxed out the Sunnis from economic prosperity due to making every oil-rich area fall within the Kurdish or Shia regions. They have nothing to work for and that is why most fight.
 
#33
#33
(CSpindizzy @ Jun 16 said:
I would agree but expand it beyond to Yugoslavia as a whole. You might wind up seeing it completely divided into purely autonomous ethnic states. Right now we've already boxed out the Sunnis from economic prosperity due to making every oil-rich area fall within the Kurdish or Shia regions. They have nothing to work for and that is why most fight.


True, but as soon as Saddam was no longer in power they knew their days were numbered. They are a minority to the Shi'ites so it is too be expected that they wouldnt have as much power in the government.
 
#34
#34
(OrangeEmpire @ Jun 16 said:
Calm down sparky, it will be ok.

I'm not upset. No need to call for calm. I just merely pointed out that WWII and Iraq are two different domains and have very little in common. If you want to say doom and gloom I'll give you that. But for the sake of actual issues, there's nothing major here to work with. To start with Iraq did not invade us or attack us. We weakened him to the point he was all but a shell when we went back in a few years ago. Judging by the amount of time it took to arrive in Baghdad, his actual government was definitely a shell. He had little infrastructure to begin with so retooling a Third World country cannot be compared to retooling an entire continent. And fighting two powerful nations that were opposed to us is far different than 'being greeted in the streets' like we were told would happen.

You all are also forgetting the dynamic that clearly there was no post-war planning for securing the country from outside forces nor preparing for insurgencies. We wiped out the military and its structure so instead of just sending in those grunts back into the streets to secure them, we blew them all away in their bunkers with shock and awe. Not to mention hearing numerous general pre and post war say this was a problem and hearing that more troops were needed but this was ignored. I find it ironic that the same WH that says they listen to their generals just flat out disregarded a lot of advice and recommendations that could have avoided a lot of what we've seen here.
 
#35
#35
(OrangeEmpire @ Jun 16 said:
Who said something about the military and nation building?

I think Bush in the 2000 Presidential debates said something about this not being his cup of tea.....
 
#36
#36
(CSpindizzy @ Jun 16 said:
I'm not upset. No need to call for calm. I just merely pointed out that WWII and Iraq are two different domains and have very little in common. If you want to say doom and gloom I'll give you that. But for the sake of actual issues, there's nothing major here to work with. To start with Iraq did not invade us or attack us. We weakened him to the point he was all but a shell when we went back in a few years ago. Judging by the amount of time it took to arrive in Baghdad, his actual government was definitely a shell. He had little infrastructure to begin with so retooling a Third World country cannot be compared to retooling an entire continent. And fighting two powerful nations that were opposed to us is far different than 'being greeted in the streets' like we were told would happen.

You all are also forgetting the dynamic that clearly there was no post-war planning for securing the country from outside forces nor preparing for insurgencies. We wiped out the military and its structure so instead of just sending in those grunts back into the streets to secure them, we blew them all away in their bunkers with shock and awe. Not to mention hearing numerous general pre and post war say this was a problem and hearing that more troops were needed but this was ignored. I find it ironic that the same WH that says they listen to their generals just flat out disregarded a lot of advice and recommendations that could have avoided a lot of what we've seen here.

Most of his army actually just ditched their weapons and uniforms as soon as we headed their way, some in the outer ring because they weren't Sunni but some in his inner ring did so with the full intention of hitting us in our soft under belly after the armor had went through. So there wasn't very much hitting them in their bunkers, most guys we engaged weren't even in military uniform.
 
#37
#37
From the first Gulf War until now, we hit many of his troops' bunkers over and over. I still have stories on where we bombed numerous RG facilities and generals in the briefings saying we just wiped out entire brigades. Most of the 'elite' units were bombed out. The ones that were left packed up and went home. many were recruited by the insurgencies because they paid them hard currency. They were soldiers and they needed money.
 
#38
#38
Overexaggerated? I need better rebuttal than that. If it ISN'T 95% or even close, why aren't people lining up to join the military to regain their country back? Why are they not turning over insurgents in large numbers? Why didn't they take up arms and immediately line up to kill off all Fedaheen right after the fall? It's not overexaggerated. Most of these nations in this region are full of status quo and complacent people. Only a small fraction actually fight and they fight other groups like them. You can't judge a voter percentage in turnout as how the people feel. Keep in mind the turnout rate was MUCH lower than was hoped for.

They are lining up to join the police and military - eventhough people are often killed in that process (hardly not caring). The news continually shows military recruits being the target of insurgents.

Voter turnout was still higher than in the US and a great peril to life and limb.

Insurgents have been turned in. Even Zarquawi was busted based on local intel.


We have been told time and time again that the Taliban is all but defeated. We have been told they were some minor and insignificant insect floating around in a small handful of villages. Now we see them resurging right under our noses. They've actually regained many areas of the countryside once bragged on as being secured.
The whole issue is a White House that has given out expectations that cannot be delivered. We've sunk billions into this deal and nothing to show for it.

Two points here - someone (or the administration) setting expectations doesn't mean those expectations are a reflection of reality. The administration has also continually stated this would be a long, protracted struggle - somehow those statements should shape expectations as well. I never expected this would be quick or that we would have completely eliminated the Taliban threat. Regardless, just because that's what you or others might expected it doesn't change the reality of what was doable and what has been achieved. You expected more to be achieved, it wasn't, your dissatisfied. It doesn't change the realities of what needed to be done (to remove the Taliban) and the progress that has been made.

Second point - again it is a gross exaggeration to say "we have nothing to show for it". Removal of 2 regimes, democratic elections, etc. You may not value these outcomes but they are positive outcomes.

It does NOT take that long to upgrade what has been promised to achieve in 1 year. And you cannot use the excuse of security concerns because even the area of Baghdad is still far behind all of this clean-up.

Not sure what your credentials are for assessing this. Rather than patch up the infrastructure, it is being completely rebuilt due to decades of neglect. Look at how long the Big Dig has been going on and it's still not done! Nobody is blowing up the work as it goes along.

Restoring these services is critical but so are so many of the other missions underway in Iraq.

Different conditions, politics, origins, economics, etc.

Which explains why different actions have been taken in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and N. Korea.

They (post-war efforts in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other conflicts) are similar in the sense that the level of rebuilding and cultural change is monumental. To expect that to completely occur in the matter of a few years is once again an unrealistic expectation.

Overall, the failure of events to meet unrealistic expectations does not in and of itself constitute failure. When I refer to exaggerations it is based on this sentiment.
 
#39
#39
The only comparison I was making about WWII reconstruction was the newspaper gloom and doom.

It is hard to compare any situation to the other because nothing is the same.

You can choose different parts, such as WWII reconstruction news reporting and Bosnian ethnic differences to Iraq.

Each circumstance will be unique to itself.

I think Bush in the 2000 Presidential debates said something about this not being his cup of tea.....

Quite amusing...... :dance2: :cry:
 
#40
#40
Lining up to join? Mabye you saw one line on TV but the reality is that this is not the case. This is why the US troops have had to pull most of the security duty here. And now we have the well choreographed 70K Iraqis patrolling the already fortified streets of Baghdad. Send them out to those insurgent hotbeds and you'll have an answer.

Higher than the US....but not overwhelming. And you'd figure with martial law and US troops filling the streets, you'd feel pretty safe to come out. But again, that image doesn't portray democracy when you have martial law and troops with guns having to make sure an election works.

The point on WH expectations is that when you promise something most people know cannot be delivered, you've sealed your own fate. Dubya has no one but himself to blame for the sunken poll numbers especially on the loss of credibility. You don't go out there fluffing up things only to have that backfire. You rapidly lose support of your own cause.

Removal of two regimes is fine and dandy. Taking out a government hasn't done anything. The result of doing so has caused our credibility to falter, image in the region to tank, more people to die at our hands, billions of money lost, insurgents to get weapons they never had access to before, many to train for war they never had the ability to do before, ethnic tensions to rise, etc. And again, you can call those elections democratic but they are far from our own definition of democratic. Check the abolition of many political parties, many not allowed to vote, having the military to secure the election. In recent history, our own government has called this undemocratic in many countries.

My credentials are seeing firsthand, contracts promising such things, ability to do so NOT being such a major hurdle, etc. It does not take rocket science to get these items back up to speed. Decades of neglect is a term coined by many not in the know. Iraq was actually pretty advanced for the region. Having a lot bombed out both in '91 and '03 didn't really help matters. Having the UN prevent many supplies getting in to rebuild these didn't help either. We're talking simple repairs your local power companies do in one night after a major storm. These companies that are there are equipped with the means to do these tasks much faster than your companies here in the US. The Big Dig is a major multi-lane tunnel under a huge harbor. Fixing up a power grid is in no comparison to the Big Dig. Restoring these services are critical considering it was a major point of ours to winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Rushing off to secure pipelines rather than everyday necessities of the Iraqis makes it look like we're after their oil and care less about them. It's a PR campaign now and we're losing it to the insurgents.

The reason different actions have been taken in other areas is because those other areas are much stronger than Iraq. We essentially needed a whipping boy after 9/11. We were immediately told Saddam had all sorts of ties, drones, thousands of drums of WMD's, mobile chemical labs all with photos and evidence to prove it all. This all came out right after 9/11. All this time our good friend Osama has been untouched and the man responsible for 9/11 is still at large. We ignored the serial killer and went after the drunk driver.
 
#41
#41
Too good of a discussion not to bring up a good conspiracy theory.

Did Bin Laden send faulty information to U.S. operatives so we would invade Iraq?

Do you think Bin Laden wanted the U.S. in Iraq?

Bin Laden knows the only way to beat us is through our economy.
 
#42
#42
(OrangeEmpire @ Jun 16 said:
Too good of a discussion not to bring up a good conspiracy theory.

Did Bin Laden send faulty information to U.S. operatives so we would invade Iraq?

Do you think Bin Laden wanted the U.S. in Iraq?

Bin Laden knows the only way to beat us is through our economy.



Faulty information ? I always hear this but there were chemical weapons components and we found some but most of it was transported to Syria before the war or just dumped in the desert. It was no surprise the invasion was coming and all Saddam really needed a day or two to get rid of most of the evidence. Granted the WMD scare was a bit overblown but it isn't totally false I can say that with 100 percent conviction.
 
#43
#43
Conspiracy theory........... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

:biggrin2:
 
#44
#44
(OrangeEmpire @ Jun 16 said:
Too good of a discussion not to bring up a good conspiracy theory.

Did Bin Laden send faulty information to U.S. operatives so we would invade Iraq?

Do you think Bin Laden wanted the U.S. in Iraq?

Bin Laden knows the only way to beat us is through our economy.



Woops sorry
 
#48
#48
Well Saddam and Osama were not big buddies. Both feared and hated each other. Saddam didn't want Muslim extremists in his country knowing they'd overthrow him. Saddam was a secular sociopath. Osama wanted fundamentalist regimes all over the Middle East. Who's to say they did or didn't put aside differences for a common enemy. But to say there was overwhelming proof both were tied together before we went to war is a stretch. Judging by the palaces and lifestyles the Husseins lived up to the end, I'd say they were more concerned about feeding their egos than even helping their own people. We blew Saddam's notion he was Nebuchadnezzar II in '91. He tried to be strong to keep himself in power from fundamentalists from within and try to appease the UN as he went along.
 
#49
#49
(volinbham @ Jun 16 said:
Hell, you should be able to fix that overnight! :blush2:


Ha, yeah if the problem wasn't on the other end of the satellite in Saudi Arabia :D
 
#50
#50
My credentials are seeing firsthand, contracts promising such things, ability to do so NOT being such a major hurdle, etc. It does not take rocket science to get these items back up to speed. Decades of neglect is a term coined by many not in the know. Iraq was actually pretty advanced for the region. Having a lot bombed out both in '91 and '03 didn't really help matters. Having the UN prevent many supplies getting in to rebuild these didn't help either. We're talking simple repairs your local power companies do in one night after a major storm.

So by your own statements its NOT like the local power company after a storm. Bombing and UN sanctions severly impacted the system (by your assertion). I can't remember the last time the power grid was bombed in Birmingham and as far as I know, we are not under UN sanctions :blink:

Advanced for the region is not the same as advanced. Repair and replacement are also not the same thing.

If it was simply a matter of "simple repairs your local power companies do in one night after a major storm" why on earth would we not have done those things? When everyone understands it's so important, why not do something so "simple"?
 

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