Controversial subject: (Might be to rough to discuss)

[jaybird_1981]

So by your own statements its NOT like the local power company after a storm. Bombing and UN sanctions severly impacted the system (by your assertion). I can't remember the last time the power grid was bombed in Birmingham and as far as I know, we are not under UN sanctions :blink:

Advanced for the region is not the same as advanced. Repair and replacement are also not the same thing.

If it was simply a matter of "simple repairs your local power companies do in one night after a major storm" why on earth would we not have done those things? When everyone understands it's so important, why not do something so "simple"?

You are correct, this country was light years behind what would be exceptable in the western world. And all the bombings did not help matters, I can look outside right now and see a building on our FOB that was destroyed by JDAMS and you know what they are just now fixing it up, this is a long slow process. They had to REDO the entire power grids around Baghdad. The sewage systems are very obsolete, I was flying just a a month or so ago over the city and we had a little rain but the water was backed up all over the place. This place needed alot of work and still has a ways to go.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Your guess is as good as mine. The equipment has been there for some time. So have the tools and the manpower. Why don't you write your congressman or senator to find out? Many sections just needed minor repairs. Even within the areas deemed officially secure, there are roving blackouts....not due to major needs but just minor fixes.

As I said before, these companies that are contracted for utility works had deadlines that all came and went. Nothing was done but they collected payment. These same contractors are ones that are designed to go into areas and set up shop and do their jobs even in the most ravaged areas within weeks. Check your calendar and let me know how many weeks we've been there still with issues.

 

[jaybird_1981]

Your guess is as good as mine. The equipment has been there for some time. So have the tools and the manpower. Why don't you write your congressman or senator to find out? Many sections just needed minor repairs. Even within the areas deemed officially secure, there are roving blackouts....not due to major needs but just minor fixes.

As I said before, these companies that are contracted for utility works had deadlines that all came and went. Nothing was done but they collected payment. These same contractors are ones that are designed to go into areas and set up shop and do their jobs even in the most ravaged areas within weeks. Check your calendar and let me know how many weeks we've been there still with issues.

I think you are undestimating how much of the infrastructure had to be totally gutted and redone and the overall state of disrepair this countries utilities were in.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I think you are undestimating how much of the infrastructure had to be totally gutted and redone and the overall state of disrepair this countries utilities were in.

No underestimating here. All of that gutting was figured in the estimates and contracts and the deadlines have come and gone. I find it hard to believe such notable comanies such as the one Cheney used to run would make such a far-fetched assessment without taking everything into consideration. But yet Cheney doesn't have a good record so I could be wrong about those companies as well.

 

[jaybird_1981]

No underestimating here. All of that gutting was figured in the estimates and contracts and the deadlines have come and gone. I find it hard to believe such notable comanies such as the one Cheney used to run would make such a far-fetched assessment without taking everything into consideration. But yet Cheney doesn't have a good record so I could be wrong about those companies as well.

Well I have to be careful what I say for obvious reasons, but I think KBR may have bitten off more than they can chew here, there should be more companies involved here and it should have been an open bidding.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Well I have to be careful what I say for obvious reasons, but I think KBR may have bitten off more than they can chew here, there should be more companies involved here and it should have been an open bidding.

I agree that there should have been competitive bidding. I also think there should be oversight. Considering all of the busted terms and little results, there clearly needs to be some oversight outside of the WH or Congress. Checks have been handed out and little results have been achieved. From the people on the ground that I've talked to, they've all said it's not a matter of them being able to complete the jobs. But the bureacracy at all levels prevents them from actually going forward to complete their tasks. Some engineers I've talked to said if they had their hands untied they could have completed these jobs a long time ago.

You see volinbham, I've seen firsthand and talked to others who have seen firsthand a lot of this. I'm not just a news junkie who watches FNC or CNN and automatically believe or discount what is shown on TV. I'm making comments based on firsthand knowledge and actual events on the ground. I'm not one who comments on a lot without knowing something about what I'm talking about. A lot of this whole issue is perception and tit for tat partisan bickering based on news channels and sources. You can ask soldiers flying back to the US and have some say how bad things are while others say how wonderful things are. A lot is a matter of where in Iraq they are from and what their own perceptions of good and bad are. Fact is expectations were set and set incorrectly. While some expected this, it's only Dubya's credibility on the line....and the country's...and the American people...soldiers on the ground, etc.

 

[jaybird_1981]

I agree that there should have been competitive bidding. I also think there should be oversight. Considering all of the busted terms and little results, there clearly needs to be some oversight outside of the WH or Congress. Checks have been handed out and little results have been achieved. From the people on the ground that I've talked to, they've all said it's not a matter of them being able to complete the jobs. But the bureacracy at all levels prevents them from actually going forward to complete their tasks. Some engineers I've talked to said if they had their hands untied they could have completed these jobs a long time ago.

You see volinbham, I've seen firsthand and talked to others who have seen firsthand a lot of this. I'm not just a news junkie who watches FNC or CNN and automatically believe or discount what is shown on TV. I'm making comments based on firsthand knowledge and actual events on the ground. I'm not one who comments on a lot without knowing something about what I'm talking about. A lot of this whole issue is perception and tit for tat partisan bickering based on news channels and sources. You can ask soldiers flying back to the US and have some say how bad things are while others say how wonderful things are. A lot is a matter of where in Iraq they are from and what their own perceptions of good and bad are. Fact is expectations were set and set incorrectly. While some expected this, it's only Dubya's credibility on the line....and the country's...and the American people...soldiers on the ground, etc.

You are absolutely right about their hands being tied there is alot of red tape to get anything done over here, but I actually travel all over Iraq for my job so I have seen most of it and I can say it is alot better now then it was in 2003 its not even comparable. This is something that we have to see through to the end I am a firm believer in that if we were to pull out it would disastrous.

 

[orange+white=heaven]

This is something that we have to see through to the end I am a firm believer in that if we were to pull out it would disastrous.

So 3 or 4 years and 3 or 4 hundred billion dollars from now, when we've reconstructed all that infrastructure... When feuding religious factions still refuse to unite in their diversity under one government in the good ole American tradition... When the IED and rocket attacks have upped the casualty list still so much further... What would it be to pull out then?

I'm grateful for the efforts you and so many others are putting forth, but I'm genuinely frustrated by what I see on the television from the country you are working so hard to help, and by the lack of vision for success from Washington.

Stay safe jaybird....

 

[volinbham]

You see volinbham, I've seen firsthand and talked to others who have seen firsthand a lot of this. I'm not just a news junkie who watches FNC or CNN and automatically believe or discount what is shown on TV. I'm making comments based on firsthand knowledge and actual events on the ground. I'm not one who comments on a lot without knowing something about what I'm talking about.

I never doubted that you have sources, just that your arguments have a "straw-man" quality that build up a scenario based on unrealistic expectations (whatever their source) then make sweeping statements (e.g. absolutely nothing to show for it) pronouncing these expectations were not met in the slightest.

Perfectly acceptable for debating but it comes across like: "Bush said this would happen, it didn't happen, the whole thing is therefore a complete disaster." or "things aren't exactly like we were told so it is doomed to failure".

Not necessarily attributing this to you but I'm always amazed and a bit frustrated when people say Bush said this but the ignore all the countervailing statements that were made as well. I would guess if you did a content analysis of his comments, there are many more indications about the anticipated difficulties and long-term commitment necessary than comments about we'll be in and out or that it will be relatively easy or short-term.

 

[CSpindizzy]

OK. Let me put this in easier terms to understand. Bush was bound and determined to go after Saddam, 9/11 or not. Essentially he went in without taking into consideration the advice by the experts in the field. He failed to listen to his generals on troops needed, failed to listen to the public policy experts on internal issues, failed to listen to the urban planners on infrastructure issues, etc.

You've missed my whole point that Bush clearly went in without looking at all of the factors and apply them to what was needed. Basically he looked at the situation in a short-term manner and overall the plan fell apart. We've had to plan as we go which in itself isn't an evil. But when you had the experts predicting every one of these scenarios, it makes Bush look incredibly inept. Then he comes out saying everything he's doing is right and that he's listened to the experts including his generals on the ground. That's clearly not the case. When it comes out that all of this happens, it destroys credibility not only with his own public but with all of those in the region we have to work with. If Bush is close-minded and only wants to do his own thing, how can we call on others to help us? Clearly the world, EU, NATO, UN or someone should have stepped in after we took Baghdad and picked up from there. Instead Bush's one track mind that can never do ANYTHING wrong or admit to it went in and said this is the way it is. Even now the Iraqi government thinks we're a joke. You can talk to several high ranking people in the Foreign Ministry now and they'll tell you that the PM's statements that were harsh on the US are widespread in Iraq. The only reason they haven't called on the US to leave is that they're letting the US take out the immediate threats that they cannot due to reprisals, etc. It wouldn't look good for the new government to go out and round up or kill fellow Iraqis. So we're giving the leadership what they want without them having to dirty or bloody their own hands.

 

[volinbham]

OK. Let me put this in easier terms to understand. Bush was bound and determined to go after Saddam, 9/11 or not. Essentially he went in without taking into consideration the advice by the experts in the field. He failed to listen to his generals on troops needed, failed to listen to the public policy experts on internal issues, failed to listen to the urban planners on infrastructure issues, etc.

You've missed my whole point that Bush clearly went in without looking at all of the factors and apply them to what was needed. Basically he looked at the situation in a short-term manner and overall the plan fell apart. We've had to plan as we go which in itself isn't an evil. But when you had the experts predicting every one of these scenarios, it makes Bush look incredibly inept. Then he comes out saying everything he's doing is right and that he's listened to the experts including his generals on the ground. That's clearly not the case. When it comes out that all of this happens, it destroys credibility not only with his own public but with all of those in the region we have to work with. If Bush is close-minded and only wants to do his own thing, how can we call on others to help us? Clearly the world, EU, NATO, UN or someone should have stepped in after we took Baghdad and picked up from there. Instead Bush's one track mind that can never do ANYTHING wrong or admit to it went in and said this is the way it is. Even now the Iraqi government thinks we're a joke. You can talk to several high ranking people in the Foreign Ministry now and they'll tell you that the PM's statements that were harsh on the US are widespread in Iraq. The only reason they haven't called on the US to leave is that they're letting the US take out the immediate threats that they cannot due to reprisals, etc. It wouldn't look good for the new government to go out and round up or kill fellow Iraqis. So we're giving the leadership what they want without them having to dirty or bloody their own hands.

Gee thanks for dumbing it down for me :crazy:

I haven't been arguing Bush's competence or incompetence at any point in this discussion. Go back and check my points and you'll see I've simply be trying to state:

1) There was clearly more to the strategy of Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. than oil, revenge, etc. Criticize it all you like (I have as well) but at least do it from the perspective of the whole strategy rather than the part that fits your argument.

2) It is an overstatement to say: 95% of Iraqi's just don't care and the entire effort is therefore doomed. Just as it is an overstatement to say we were assured the Taliban was completely wiped out yet now they are "spreading like wildfire" -- the effort is doomed. Just as it is an overstatement to say getting the power on in Iraq is the same as the power company getting your power back on after a storm.

I understand taking an extreme position and using hyperbole to make a point but in doing so you end up just like any partisan. You dog out W for making simplistic or one-sided statements but when you do the same (as in the examples in point 2 above) you are doing the exact same thing.

 

[OWB]

There was clearly more to the strategy of Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. than oil, revenge, etc.

Sorry, but the words "strategy" and "Iraq" shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence.

 

[volinbham]

Sorry, but the words "strategy" and "Iraq" shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence.

How about strategery? :w00t:

 

[OWB]

How about strategery? :w00t:

:lol: If you must..

 

[jaybird_1981]

So 3 or 4 years and 3 or 4 hundred billion dollars from now, when we've reconstructed all that infrastructure... When feuding religious factions still refuse to unite in their diversity under one government in the good ole American tradition... When the IED and rocket attacks have upped the casualty list still so much further... What would it be to pull out then?

I'm grateful for the efforts you and so many others are putting forth, but I'm genuinely frustrated by what I see on the television from the country you are working so hard to help, and by the lack of vision for success from Washington.

Stay safe jaybird....

I know the cost of this war as well as anyone, and I understand the lack of support for the effort but it is necessary. When I first arrived I expressed an interest in putting together an Iraqi baseball team and trying to bring the game to the Iraqi's as I had seen them playing cricket and I was told that no Iraqi would play out of fear of being associated with something so blatantly American. And I am curious if some stories reach the news wires back home for instance the Iraqi tennis players who were murdered for wearing shorts or how every day bodies are found of Iraqi civilians all over in shallow graves or abandoned cars you dont hear as much about that, I know Americans have payed a heavy price over here but, we are not the only ones paying that price, the Iraqi people are paying the price ten fold.

People are dying because of their religious beliefs, we as a country cannot allow that to happen it sets a horrible precedent, much like Somalia. Mistakes have been made but this is a fight we have to win it is not an option. I'm not even a Bush fan but he is right about not leaving, if we were to leave today this place would explode into religious infighting with militants coming from Iran and Syria it would fracture into little territories being ruled by tribal sheiks. And the peace process here would be pushed back by years. This is going to take a generation or two to get better the key is giving children hope. And I think we do that.

 

[Lexvol]

I know the cost of this war as well as anyone, and I understand the lack of support for the effort but it is necessary. When I first arrived I expressed an interest in putting together an Iraqi baseball team and trying to bring the game to the Iraqi's as I had seen them playing cricket and I was told that no Iraqi would play out of fear of being associated with something so blatantly American. And I am curious if some stories reach the news wires back home for instance the Iraqi tennis players who were murdered for wearing shorts or how every day bodies are found of Iraqi civilians all over in shallow graves or abandoned cars you dont hear as much about that, I know Americans have payed a heavy price over here but, we are not the only ones paying that price, the Iraqi people are paying the price ten fold.

People are dying because of their religious beliefs, we as a country cannot allow that to happen it sets a horrible precedent, much like Somalia. Mistakes have been made but this is a fight we have to win it is not an option. I'm not even a Bush fan but he is right about not leaving, if we were to leave today this place would explode into religious infighting with militants coming from Iran and Syria it would fracture into little territories being ruled by tribal sheiks. And the peace process here would be pushed back by years. This is going to take a generation or two to get better the key is giving children hope. And I think we do that.

The only alternative was turning Iraq into a parking lot. It is ashame that the public is so fickle.

 

[OWB]

The only alternative was turning Iraq into a parking lot. It is ashame that the public is so fickle.

That most certainly wasn't the only other option.

I'm afraid that Iraq is going to break the U.S. like Afghanistan broke Russia.

 

[rockydoc]

I know the cost of this war as well as anyone, and I understand the lack of support for the effort but it is necessary. When I first arrived I expressed an interest in putting together an Iraqi baseball team and trying to bring the game to the Iraqi's as I had seen them playing cricket and I was told that no Iraqi would play out of fear of being associated with something so blatantly American. And I am curious if some stories reach the news wires back home for instance the Iraqi tennis players who were murdered for wearing shorts or how every day bodies are found of Iraqi civilians all over in shallow graves or abandoned cars you dont hear as much about that, I know Americans have payed a heavy price over here but, we are not the only ones paying that price, the Iraqi people are paying the price ten fold.

People are dying because of their religious beliefs, we as a country cannot allow that to happen it sets a horrible precedent, much like Somalia. Mistakes have been made but this is a fight we have to win it is not an option. I'm not even a Bush fan but he is right about not leaving, if we were to leave today this place would explode into religious infighting with militants coming from Iran and Syria it would fracture into little territories being ruled by tribal sheiks. And the peace process here would be pushed back by years. This is going to take a generation or two to get better the key is giving children hope. And I think we do that.

Well spoken from someone on the scene. Thanks for your service to your country. I am encouraged by recent positive events out of Iraq.

 

[U-T]

I have been to Iraq now 3 times and have a completely different view then my fellow man on here who has served.

I see no end in sight.

Do I think what we are doing is good for Iraq? Of course. We are making a difference.

But my problem deals with the lack of a real "path" given to us by the men up top and everyday the men on the ground are getting more restless as well.

 

[westtnorangeman]

It is time to get out now stop the fighting and get our boys home. We need to find other energy sources and leave the middle east alone. Let them solve their own problems. Get out now.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Gee thanks for dumbing it down for me :crazy:

I haven't been arguing Bush's competence or incompetence at any point in this discussion. Go back and check my points and you'll see I've simply be trying to state:

1) There was clearly more to the strategy of Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. than oil, revenge, etc. Criticize it all you like (I have as well) but at least do it from the perspective of the whole strategy rather than the part that fits your argument.

2) It is an overstatement to say: 95% of Iraqi's just don't care and the entire effort is therefore doomed. Just as it is an overstatement to say we were assured the Taliban was completely wiped out yet now they are "spreading like wildfire" -- the effort is doomed. Just as it is an overstatement to say getting the power on in Iraq is the same as the power company getting your power back on after a storm.

I understand taking an extreme position and using hyperbole to make a point but in doing so you end up just like any partisan. You dog out W for making simplistic or one-sided statements but when you do the same (as in the examples in point 2 above) you are doing the exact same thing.

What?? You missed my point again.

I've criticised in several aspects. I respond to what you or someone else says. I never said that is my full argument. Don't say that is my full argument when clearly it isn't. I never said this was solely about oil and revenge. If you read the post you reference, no where did I mention revenge and oil. Actually a few posts before that I made a tongue in cheek comment about those. But the one you referenced has nothing of the sort. You missed the mark on the rebuttal. How can you say that what I said is an extreme position when it is reality? We botched the mission as a whole. While I hope good comes out of this, the mission as a whole was screwed up from the beginning because a leader did not heed the warnings and advice from the ones in the know. It's clear fact. There is no extreme view in that. There is no partisan view in that. As a matter of fact there was no reference to anything partisan whatsoever.

I'm not 'dogging out' W for making simplistic statements. I'm 'dogging him out' for making simplistic policy decisions that already have and will continue to have repercussions America will be burdened with for decade.

My reference to 95% was not about the people not caring and therefore this is doomed. I am saying, and read that post again, that a huge majority of the people there could care less who is in charge. Most go on about their daily life and notice little of who is in charge. As long as their status quo is not affected, they are content. It is the same in many Third World countries. Most revolutions and regional wars are fought by a small handful while most of the people sit back and go about their daily lives.

Please read my posts again.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I have been to Iraq now 3 times and have a completely different view then my fellow man on here who has served.

I see no end in sight.

Do I think what we are doing is good for Iraq? Of course. We are making a difference.

But my problem deals with the lack of a real "path" given to us by the men up top and everyday the men on the ground are getting more restless as well.

You summed up the whole debate in a few sentences. Thank you.

There is no path. What we are given are broad generalizations that we want a free Iraq capable of defending itself. Well then define what point that is. And define how we get to that point. What do military personnel need to do to achieve that? Give us reference points NOT warm and fuzzy talking points. We were preached to about exit strategy in Bosnia, Haiti, and Somalia. Let's flip that to THIS man in charge. If it was good enough to push for that during the Clinton years why can't W give us that definition now?

 

[volinbham]

What?? You missed my point again.

I've criticised in several aspects. I respond to what you or someone else says. I never said that is my full argument. Don't say that is my full argument when clearly it isn't. I never said this was solely about oil and revenge. If you read the post you reference, no where did I mention revenge and oil. Actually a few posts before that I made a tongue in cheek comment about those. But the one you referenced has nothing of the sort. You missed the mark on the rebuttal. How can you say that what I said is an extreme position when it is reality? We botched the mission as a whole. While I hope good comes out of this, the mission as a whole was screwed up from the beginning because a leader did not heed the warnings and advice from the ones in the know. It's clear fact. There is no extreme view in that. There is no partisan view in that. As a matter of fact there was no reference to anything partisan whatsoever.

I'm not 'dogging out' W for making simplistic statements. I'm 'dogging him out' for making simplistic policy decisions that already have and will continue to have repercussions America will be burdened with for decade.

My reference to 95% was not about the people not caring and therefore this is doomed. I am saying, and read that post again, that a huge majority of the people there could care less who is in charge. Most go on about their daily life and notice little of who is in charge. As long as their status quo is not affected, they are content. It is the same in many Third World countries. Most revolutions and regional wars are fought by a small handful while most of the people sit back and go about their daily lives.

Please read my posts again.

Well we just must be missing each other's points then since mine are not registering with you either.

My reference to 95% was not about the people not caring and therefore this is doomed. I am saying, and read that post again, that a huge majority of the people there could care less who is in charge.

When you make a statement saying 95% then back off to "huge majority" is what I'm am talking about.

I'm simply trying to say that the arguments for and against are too filled with hyperbole (e.g. 95%) to be considered credible debate points.

My personal approach to debating such a serious issue is to refrain from extreme statements. It's just my approach.

As for the "oil and revenge" point, I wasn't referencing you directly but rather just simply trying to reconstruct the thread and point out why I thought your points jumped off my original comments.

In short, I will always counter what I consider to be extreme statements on either side of a position (as in our discussion about the NSA activities). There's nothing personal in it but I believe these issues are complicated enough without the hyperbolic statements (eg. getting the power on in Bagdad is essentially like the power company coming out after a thunder storm.)

 

[CSpindizzy]

Well we just must be missing each other's points then since mine are not registering with you either.
When you make a statement saying 95% then back off to "huge majority" is what I'm am talking about.

I'm simply trying to say that the arguments for and against are too filled with hyperbole (e.g. 95%) to be considered credible debate points.

My personal approach to debating such a serious issue is to refrain from extreme statements. It's just my approach.

As for the "oil and revenge" point, I wasn't referencing you directly but rather just simply trying to reconstruct the thread and point out why I thought your points jumped off my original comments.

In short, I will always counter what I consider to be extreme statements on either side of a position (as in our discussion about the NSA activities). There's nothing personal in it but I believe these issues are complicated enough without the hyperbolic statements (eg. getting the power on in Bagdad is essentially like the power company coming out after a thunder storm.)

Why did you reference a post that mentioned nothing about the 95% comment? Would you like me to do a poll? If it makes you feel better I will say 95% and huge majority are the same.

I didn't know this was debate class and we were being graded on quality. A lot of the comments here are kneejerk, illogical, rash, hyperbole, etc. More are tongue in cheek as well. If you'd like I'd be happy to raise the quality of my comments to a formal debate style. My style varies. if the post I reference is far-fetched, I will respond with a little stretch as well...perhaps tongue-in-cheek. If the post I reference is well thought out with factual points, I will respond in kind. I'm not here to debate debate styles.

And you keep harping on the power company issue. There are areas of Baghdad where it is that simple if not even more simple but yet 3 years later there are problems. So while you think that hyperbole, it is reality in Iraq. Feel free to take a trip there. it is an eye opening experience. I'll even be happy to give you the email address of a contractor friend of mine who is actually there working on the electrical systems. He'll be happy to confirm what is hyperbole.

 

[volinbham]

Why did you reference a post that mentioned nothing about the 95% comment? Would you like me to do a poll? If it makes you feel better I will say 95% and huge majority are the same.

I didn't know this was debate class and we were being graded on quality. A lot of the comments here are kneejerk, illogical, rash, hyperbole, etc. More are tongue in cheek as well. If you'd like I'd be happy to raise the quality of my comments to a formal debate style. My style varies. if the post I reference is far-fetched, I will respond with a little stretch as well...perhaps tongue-in-cheek. If the post I reference is well thought out with factual points, I will respond in kind. I'm not here to debate debate styles.

And you keep harping on the power company issue. There are areas of Baghdad where it is that simple if not even more simple but yet 3 years later there are problems. So while you think that hyperbole, it is reality in Iraq. Feel free to take a trip there. it is an eye opening experience. I'll even be happy to give you the email address of a contractor friend of mine who is actually there working on the electrical systems. He'll be happy to confirm what is hyperbole.

I'm just trying to explain where I'm coming from -- you are obviously free to debate anyway you see fit while I'll do the same. I'm not suggesting what is right or wrong in terms of stating an opinion but rather just my perspective.

I'm only harping on issues to try to get my point across (you'll see my responses to you are on specific points not broad premises) but it seems we are both experiencing the same frustration.